Zero tolerance

[Mr_annie_vxr]

andmole said:

XMG5 said:

ipsg.glf said:

XMG5 said:

It's not society's place to "win back the streets" it's the responsibility of the police. Why do they always assert it's the public's responsibility to help when they are seen to be failing in their role? The police are paid, trained and employed to do the job of "keeping the Queen's peace" in all it's guises. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

Edited by XMG5 on Friday 31st August 14:25

This is probably one of the most ignorance comments I've ever read on PH.

Go to the nick in your nearest largish town and ask the Duty Inspector how many officers are on duty this evening? I think you'll be suprised at how low the numbers are.

I have a few mates who are BiBs and some of the tales they tell of what they have to deal with are horrifying.

Not ignorant, and no I don't need to ask how many are on duty. I WAS one of those few who patrolled on a late turn Friday and Saturday sometimes the ONLY one on duty from my team. But when I did so I patrolled, not sat in an office blaming paperwork, that can be an easy option.

Yes I had paperwork, yes I had prisoners, yes I was unable to go out on patrol because of handovers BUT I still took every opportunity to patrol the streets whenever I could.

In a car or on foot I patrolled whenever I had down time, however in frequent that was, or however short the opportunity to do so. I would patrol the housing estates as well as the city centre.

I know there are few on duty in any one tour BUT that's the way it has always been. It's not new and it's not the excuse that so many mke it out to be. It doesn't stop you from making an effort to get out and be seen, it's a question of pride in what you do. That's what seems to be missing nowadays the high visibilty of patrols, not the PCSOs the real deal. All we get is more excuses, and more shedding of responsibility.

That's why I say the police should regain THEIR place on the streets not pass the buck to the public.

When you visit the doctor or A&E or hospital you expect a certain level of treatment, you expect to be dealt with by the experts in medical care not the porter or the cleaning lady. When we want the public order/graffiti/damage dealt with we don't want to be told that it's our responsibility first and formost.

Yes, as a responsible parent we should know where our kids are, but because of those who don't take their responsiblities seriously, the rest of us should not be expected to share the blame for innefffective or non-existent policing. There has always been a part of society who avoid their responsibilities and want the police to wipe their a*rse for them, but there seems fewer police officers prepared to be seen than ever before, hw many readers of these posts can say they regularly see patrolling police officers on a daily basis. High profile presence in your towns and villages?

I had a vested interest in seeing my colleagues on the streets and was saddened and surprised how few I ever saw away from the nick.

I always felt that I genuinely did my best to be seen and act as a deterrent, perhaps in an old fashioned way I felt the public felt safer walking through unlit streets late at night if they could see a uniform presence.

I cannot escape the feeling that the current ACPO and to some extent the lower ranks are betraying the public and more importantly the police officers who have worked over the years to better effect with the same resources as you have today, but with less technology. I am not talking Dixon of Dock Green here and draw on my experience of 4years ago.

I maintain contact with serving police officers who remain friends from my days in the job and from what they tell me there are a lot of unhappy people in the job, unhappy at what it has been allowed to become.

So please, don't accuse me of being ignorant, I am not, nor am I your average Joe Soap Public who can be dismissed with PR Speak, Management Speak, I know-better-than-you-cos-I'm-a-policeman-speak or worse PC Speak (Political Correctness). It doesn't impress those of us who have been there done that and got the, albeit grubby, T-shirt.

Edited by XMG5 on Monday 3rd September 12:28

Top quality post, not ignorant at all. Since you say that you are in contact with serving officers, you are obviously aware of all the recent changes that some blame for the lack of a police presence on our streets, and being an obviously intelligent chap, you have allowed for them. Take no notice of your critics, and keep up the good work with quality posts such as this one. The police force/service is a poorer place without you.

Retired after 30 years?

[XMG5]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

andmole said:

XMG5 said:

ipsg.glf said:

XMG5 said:

It's not society's place to "win back the streets" it's the responsibility of the police. Why do they always assert it's the public's responsibility to help when they are seen to be failing in their role? The police are paid, trained and employed to do the job of "keeping the Queen's peace" in all it's guises. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

Edited by XMG5 on Friday 31st August 14:25

This is probably one of the most ignorance comments I've ever read on PH.

Go to the nick in your nearest largish town and ask the Duty Inspector how many officers are on duty this evening? I think you'll be suprised at how low the numbers are.

I have a few mates who are BiBs and some of the tales they tell of what they have to deal with are horrifying.

Not ignorant, and no I don't need to ask how many are on duty. I WAS one of those few who patrolled on a late turn Friday and Saturday sometimes the ONLY one on duty from my team. But when I did so I patrolled, not sat in an office blaming paperwork, that can be an easy option.

Yes I had paperwork, yes I had prisoners, yes I was unable to go out on patrol because of handovers BUT I still took every opportunity to patrol the streets whenever I could.

In a car or on foot I patrolled whenever I had down time, however in frequent that was, or however short the opportunity to do so. I would patrol the housing estates as well as the city centre.

I know there are few on duty in any one tour BUT that's the way it has always been. It's not new and it's not the excuse that so many mke it out to be. It doesn't stop you from making an effort to get out and be seen, it's a question of pride in what you do. That's what seems to be missing nowadays the high visibilty of patrols, not the PCSOs the real deal. All we get is more excuses, and more shedding of responsibility.

That's why I say the police should regain THEIR place on the streets not pass the buck to the public.

When you visit the doctor or A&E or hospital you expect a certain level of treatment, you expect to be dealt with by the experts in medical care not the porter or the cleaning lady. When we want the public order/graffiti/damage dealt with we don't want to be told that it's our responsibility first and formost.

Yes, as a responsible parent we should know where our kids are, but because of those who don't take their responsiblities seriously, the rest of us should not be expected to share the blame for innefffective or non-existent policing. There has always been a part of society who avoid their responsibilities and want the police to wipe their a*rse for them, but there seems fewer police officers prepared to be seen than ever before, hw many readers of these posts can say they regularly see patrolling police officers on a daily basis. High profile presence in your towns and villages?

I had a vested interest in seeing my colleagues on the streets and was saddened and surprised how few I ever saw away from the nick.

I always felt that I genuinely did my best to be seen and act as a deterrent, perhaps in an old fashioned way I felt the public felt safer walking through unlit streets late at night if they could see a uniform presence.

I cannot escape the feeling that the current ACPO and to some extent the lower ranks are betraying the public and more importantly the police officers who have worked over the years to better effect with the same resources as you have today, but with less technology. I am not talking Dixon of Dock Green here and draw on my experience of 4years ago.

I maintain contact with serving police officers who remain friends from my days in the job and from what they tell me there are a lot of unhappy people in the job, unhappy at what it has been allowed to become.

So please, don't accuse me of being ignorant, I am not, nor am I your average Joe Soap Public who can be dismissed with PR Speak, Management Speak, I know-better-than-you-cos-I'm-a-policeman-speak or worse PC Speak (Political Correctness). It doesn't impress those of us who have been there done that and got the, albeit grubby, T-shirt.

Edited by XMG5 on Monday 3rd September 12:28

Top quality post, not ignorant at all. Since you say that you are in contact with serving officers, you are obviously aware of all the recent changes that some blame for the lack of a police presence on our streets, and being an obviously intelligent chap, you have allowed for them. Take no notice of your critics, and keep up the good work with quality posts such as this one. The police force/service is a poorer place without you.

Retired after 30 years?

Yes. A dinosaur I know.

Edited by XMG5 on Tuesday 4th September 11:39

[Mr_annie_vxr]

XMG5 said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

andmole said:

XMG5 said:

ipsg.glf said:

XMG5 said:

It's not society's place to "win back the streets" it's the responsibility of the police. Why do they always assert it's the public's responsibility to help when they are seen to be failing in their role? The police are paid, trained and employed to do the job of "keeping the Queen's peace" in all it's guises. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

Edited by XMG5 on Friday 31st August 14:25

This is probably one of the most ignorance comments I've ever read on PH.

Go to the nick in your nearest largish town and ask the Duty Inspector how many officers are on duty this evening? I think you'll be suprised at how low the numbers are.

I have a few mates who are BiBs and some of the tales they tell of what they have to deal with are horrifying.

Not ignorant, and no I don't need to ask how many are on duty. I WAS one of those few who patrolled on a late turn Friday and Saturday sometimes the ONLY one on duty from my team. But when I did so I patrolled, not sat in an office blaming paperwork, that can be an easy option.

Yes I had paperwork, yes I had prisoners, yes I was unable to go out on patrol because of handovers BUT I still took every opportunity to patrol the streets whenever I could.

In a car or on foot I patrolled whenever I had down time, however in frequent that was, or however short the opportunity to do so. I would patrol the housing estates as well as the city centre.

I know there are few on duty in any one tour BUT that's the way it has always been. It's not new and it's not the excuse that so many mke it out to be. It doesn't stop you from making an effort to get out and be seen, it's a question of pride in what you do. That's what seems to be missing nowadays the high visibilty of patrols, not the PCSOs the real deal. All we get is more excuses, and more shedding of responsibility.

That's why I say the police should regain THEIR place on the streets not pass the buck to the public.

When you visit the doctor or A&E or hospital you expect a certain level of treatment, you expect to be dealt with by the experts in medical care not the porter or the cleaning lady. When we want the public order/graffiti/damage dealt with we don't want to be told that it's our responsibility first and formost.

Yes, as a responsible parent we should know where our kids are, but because of those who don't take their responsiblities seriously, the rest of us should not be expected to share the blame for innefffective or non-existent policing. There has always been a part of society who avoid their responsibilities and want the police to wipe their a*rse for them, but there seems fewer police officers prepared to be seen than ever before, hw many readers of these posts can say they regularly see patrolling police officers on a daily basis. High profile presence in your towns and villages?

I had a vested interest in seeing my colleagues on the streets and was saddened and surprised how few I ever saw away from the nick.

I always felt that I genuinely did my best to be seen and act as a deterrent, perhaps in an old fashioned way I felt the public felt safer walking through unlit streets late at night if they could see a uniform presence.

I cannot escape the feeling that the current ACPO and to some extent the lower ranks are betraying the public and more importantly the police officers who have worked over the years to better effect with the same resources as you have today, but with less technology. I am not talking Dixon of Dock Green here and draw on my experience of 4years ago.

I maintain contact with serving police officers who remain friends from my days in the job and from what they tell me there are a lot of unhappy people in the job, unhappy at what it has been allowed to become.

So please, don't accuse me of being ignorant, I am not, nor am I your average Joe Soap Public who can be dismissed with PR Speak, Management Speak, I know-better-than-you-cos-I'm-a-policeman-speak or worse PC Speak (Political Correctness). It doesn't impress those of us who have been there done that and got the, albeit grubby, T-shirt.

Edited by XMG5 on Monday 3rd September 12:28

Top quality post, not ignorant at all. Since you say that you are in contact with serving officers, you are obviously aware of all the recent changes that some blame for the lack of a police presence on our streets, and being an obviously intelligent chap, you have allowed for them. Take no notice of your critics, and keep up the good work with quality posts such as this one. The police force/service is a poorer place without you.

Retired after 30 years?

Yes.

We I congratulate you on 30 years as a response officer. That rarely happens.

[XMG5]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

XMG5 said:

ipsg.glf said:

XMG5 said:

It's not society's place to "win back the streets" it's the responsibility of the police. Why do they always assert it's the public's responsibility to help when they are seen to be failing in their role? The police are paid, trained and employed to do the job of "keeping the Queen's peace" in all it's guises. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

Edited by XMG5 on Friday 31st August 14:25

This is probably one of the most ignorance comments I've ever read on PH.

Go to the nick in your nearest largish town and ask the Duty Inspector how many officers are on duty this evening? I think you'll be suprised at how low the numbers are.

I have a few mates who are BiBs and some of the tales they tell of what they have to deal with are horrifying.

Not ignorant, and no I don't need to ask how many are on duty. I WAS one of those few who patrolled on a late turn Friday and Saturday sometimes the ONLY one on duty from my team. But when I did so I patrolled, not sat in an office blaming paperwork, that can be an easy option.

Yes I had paperwork, yes I had prisoners, yes I was unable to go out on patrol because of handovers BUT I still took every opportunity to patrol the streets whenever I could.

In a car or on foot I patrolled whenever I had down time, however in frequent that was, or however short the opportunity to do so. I would patrol the housing estates as well as the city centre.

I know there are few on duty in any one tour BUT that's the way it has always been. It's not new and it's not the excuse that so many mke it out to be. It doesn't stop you from making an effort to get out and be seen, it's a question of pride in what you do. That's what seems to be missing nowadays the high visibilty of patrols, not the PCSOs the real deal. All we get is more excuses, and more shedding of responsibility.

That's why I say the police should regain THEIR place on the streets not pass the buck to the public.

When you visit the doctor or A&E or hospital you expect a certain level of treatment, you expect to be dealt with by the experts in medical care not the porter or the cleaning lady. When we want the public order/graffiti/damage dealt with we don't want to be told that it's our responsibility first and foremost.

Yes, as a responsible parent we should know where our kids are, but because of those who don't take their responsiblities seriously, the rest of us should not be expected to share the blame for innefffective or non-existent policing. There has always been a part of society who avoid their responsibilities and want the police to wipe their a*rse for them, but there seems fewer police officers prepared to be seen than ever before, hw many readers of these posts can say they regularly see patrolling police officers on a daily basis. High profile presence in your towns and villages?

I had a vested interest in seeing my colleagues on the streets and was saddened and surprised how few I ever saw away from the nick.

I always felt that I genuinely did my best to be seen and act as a deterrent, perhaps in an old fashioned way I felt the public felt safer walking through unlit streets late at night if they could see a uniform presence.

I cannot escape the feeling that the current ACPO and to some extent the lower ranks are betraying the public and more importantly the police officers who have worked over the years to better effect with the same resources as you have today, but with less technology. I am not talking Dixon of Dock Green here and draw on my experience of 4years ago.

I maintain contact with serving police officers who remain friends from my days in the job and from what they tell me there are a lot of unhappy people in the job, unhappy at what it has been allowed to become.

So please, don't accuse me of being ignorant, I am not, nor am I your average Joe Soap Public who can be dismissed with PR Speak, Management Speak, I know-better-than-you-cos-I'm-a-policeman-speak or worse PC Speak (Political Correctness). It doesn't impress those of us who have been there done that and got the, albeit grubby, T-shirt.

Edited by XMG5 on Monday 3rd September 12:28

When as it wou were last in? 6 months ago? a year ago? No 4 years. National crime recording has come in since then. That massively impacted upon all forces. Stop and account has come in since then. The CPS deciding charges and thus longer more complicated case files with more hoops to jump through has come in sicne then, SPECS at domestic incidents has come in since then massively increasing the time needed to complete forms and paperwork. Most street officers will do their best to be out and about but call rates have gone up which means they have less and less 'free' time. Calls they would never have gone to 4 years ago they now due to national crime recording standards have to attend.

A whole host of impactive changes have as they always do happened in 4 years and no doubt they will again in the next 4 years. The police service changes day in day out and not always for the better.

As regards high pofile officers on foot. A whole host of research has shown that it actually makes no difference to recorded crime but does make people feel safer. The call volume was different when we had officers everywhere on foot. People never rang in as much. This increased thus the need for officers in cars who in turn had to come from somewhere and so the drip away of officers happened.

Put officers out wandering on foot on my area and I will show you an officer in ten hours who will attend one or two calls and maybe a couple of stops. Criminals are highly mobile as are most the 'scum' as such you need a vehicle to deal with them. We are not living 15 20 or 30 years ago when people had a sense of social responsibility. Thats all changed and thats nothing to do with the police service but we are picking up the pieces.

As for police working to better effect? If thats the case then what changed? Suddenly your saying we all got lazy and wanted to sit on the police station. Having known a lot of officers and still knowing officers and having been in the police service 12 years. Its my view the officer on the street is working a lot harder than ever before.

On the subject of National Crime Recording, the Home Office required Forces to use "Ethical Recording" for stats. The A&S did so but I understand that not many others did and led to a disproportionate clear up rate amongst Forces that did and those who did not use Ethical Recording of reported crimes. Indeed, some of the Forces boasting the best solved crime v. reported crimes record did so by not recording reported crimes "ethically", thus having lower 'reported' crime figures to start with.

CPS deciding charges came in in my Force before I retired. Yes it's a pain in the a*se and yes it adds to the paperwork and creates more hoops to jump through.

There were SPECs and a directive from the CC to arrest all suspects in domestics when I was in the job.

On the subject of increased call rates, my old Force now has call takers tasked with taking crime reports over the phone, no police attendance, no police involvement, just 70 civilian crime recorders.

With the influx of PCSOs who are reportedly being used to take the more mundane work off the BiBs it is reasonable to expect to see the BiBs being freed up to get out more, but it isn't happening.

As for the public feeling safer, isn't that what it's all about? If MoPs don't feel safe to venture out then no matter what the crime stats say, the yobs and criminals will have the streets to themselves with little or no resistance.

As for research into foot patrols' lack of tangible crime reduction, how does one measure what crimes were not committed because the sight of a police officer coming down the street deterred any criminal act on the part of passers-by?

Just because you can't see it and therefore can't measure it, it doesn't mean it's not being prevented.

I firmly believe that the research you alude to was undertaken to bolster other issues and add strength to ACPO who wanted to discredit foot patrols in the face of public criticsm over the lack of them. Shameful and misguided, like a lot of ACPO policy.

No-one can predict where criminals will commit their offences so whether on foot or mobile the police officer is no better placed to prevent crime.

Is it a coincidance that the rise in call rates comes at a time of retreating foot patrols, if you cannot see the police then you ring them instead, how much disquiet and minor crime was sorted by the bobby on the beat with no more than a presence in the right place at the right time?

It was no surprise to me that the "flavour of the moment" is yet another variation on Community Policing, this time around using PCSOs co-ordinated by a Constable beat manager.

The increased focus on mobility has for too long resulted in Fire Brigade policing. Constantly playing catch-up with the criminal.

As for the increased mobility of the criminal, most drug dealing is done on foot, most graffiti is created on foot, public disorder is predominantly pedestrian based, traffic offences can be dealt with equally well by foot patrols as can RTCs.

Indeed, there is very little that cannot be dealt with on foot. Yes it takes longer to get there, but when the police mobilised their patrols they sent out they raised the public's expectation of police attendance in minutes, regardless of urgency. Everyone demanded the police arrive quickly because they were educated to expect it by the police themselves.

How many jobs have been 'sorted' before the police get there just because Joe Soap has had to wait for police attendance?

Yes many of the calls are for police attendance are spurious, malicious (against third parties) or a total waste of police time, but offering an 'rapid' mobile response to everything actually did the police no favours. Perhaps it's time to re-educate callers and this is already underway with centralised non-emergancy telephone numbers for local police stations and crime recording call centres.

I have not said that suddenly you have all got lazy, yes thare are hard working officers in the job, i am still in touch with them, that's why they are so critical of the job and some of those around them and above and below them in rank.

But yes, I have known and others on here will know of officers of all ranks who are lazy, avoid attending certain jobs and do not give value for money. Dead wood or uniform carriers, that are quite happy to be the last to answer the radio. The last to arrive, always committed with other matters when the shout comes in.

There are those who think walking is a punishment and who think the real job is only done in cars.

As for "wandering on foot" as you put it, that term suggests you have a low regard for patrolling on foot and only reinforces my belief that todays "modern police force" know increasingly less of what made the British Police Force the best in the the world and why, as time passes it's new generations are continuing to erode the service it once provided. Foot patrols were there long before the car and formed the basis of good policing and tried and tested practises.

Dinosaur that I am, I know which of us will be considered to have provided the better service in the eyes of the public, and you do not have to go back 20 - 30 years to see that.

Edited by XMG5 on Tuesday 4th September 13:16

[XMG5]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

XMG5 said:

Mr_annie_vxr said:

andmole said:

XMG5 said:

ipsg.glf said:

XMG5 said:

It's not society's place to "win back the streets" it's the responsibility of the police. Why do they always assert it's the public's responsibility to help when they are seen to be failing in their role? The police are paid, trained and employed to do the job of "keeping the Queen's peace" in all it's guises. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

Edited by XMG5 on Friday 31st August 14:25

This is probably one of the most ignorance comments I've ever read on PH.

Go to the nick in your nearest largish town and ask the Duty Inspector how many officers are on duty this evening? I think you'll be suprised at how low the numbers are.

I have a few mates who are BiBs and some of the tales they tell of what they have to deal with are horrifying.

Not ignorant, and no I don't need to ask how many are on duty. I WAS one of those few who patrolled on a late turn Friday and Saturday sometimes the ONLY one on duty from my team. But when I did so I patrolled, not sat in an office blaming paperwork, that can be an easy option.

Yes I had paperwork, yes I had prisoners, yes I was unable to go out on patrol because of handovers BUT I still took every opportunity to patrol the streets whenever I could.

In a car or on foot I patrolled whenever I had down time, however in frequent that was, or however short the opportunity to do so. I would patrol the housing estates as well as the city centre.

I know there are few on duty in any one tour BUT that's the way it has always been. It's not new and it's not the excuse that so many mke it out to be. It doesn't stop you from making an effort to get out and be seen, it's a question of pride in what you do. That's what seems to be missing nowadays the high visibilty of patrols, not the PCSOs the real deal. All we get is more excuses, and more shedding of responsibility.

That's why I say the police should regain THEIR place on the streets not pass the buck to the public.

When you visit the doctor or A&E or hospital you expect a certain level of treatment, you expect to be dealt with by the experts in medical care not the porter or the cleaning lady. When we want the public order/graffiti/damage dealt with we don't want to be told that it's our responsibility first and formost.

Yes, as a responsible parent we should know where our kids are, but because of those who don't take their responsiblities seriously, the rest of us should not be expected to share the blame for innefffective or non-existent policing. There has always been a part of society who avoid their responsibilities and want the police to wipe their a*rse for them, but there seems fewer police officers prepared to be seen than ever before, hw many readers of these posts can say they regularly see patrolling police officers on a daily basis. High profile presence in your towns and villages?

I had a vested interest in seeing my colleagues on the streets and was saddened and surprised how few I ever saw away from the nick.

I always felt that I genuinely did my best to be seen and act as a deterrent, perhaps in an old fashioned way I felt the public felt safer walking through unlit streets late at night if they could see a uniform presence.

I cannot escape the feeling that the current ACPO and to some extent the lower ranks are betraying the public and more importantly the police officers who have worked over the years to better effect with the same resources as you have today, but with less technology. I am not talking Dixon of Dock Green here and draw on my experience of 4years ago.

I maintain contact with serving police officers who remain friends from my days in the job and from what they tell me there are a lot of unhappy people in the job, unhappy at what it has been allowed to become.

So please, don't accuse me of being ignorant, I am not, nor am I your average Joe Soap Public who can be dismissed with PR Speak, Management Speak, I know-better-than-you-cos-I'm-a-policeman-speak or worse PC Speak (Political Correctness). It doesn't impress those of us who have been there done that and got the, albeit grubby, T-shirt.

Edited by XMG5 on Monday 3rd September 12:28

Top quality post, not ignorant at all. Since you say that you are in contact with serving officers, you are obviously aware of all the recent changes that some blame for the lack of a police presence on our streets, and being an obviously intelligent chap, you have allowed for them. Take no notice of your critics, and keep up the good work with quality posts such as this one. The police force/service is a poorer place without you.

Retired after 30 years?

Yes.

We I congratulate you on 30 years as a response officer. That rarely happens.

Thank you.