question about undertaking

[filski666]

here's a question I hope someone can help clarify for me:

imagine the scenario - driving down the middle lane of 3 lane motorway/dual carriageway overtaking long line of traffic. Come across bloke in outside lane doing 65. I am doing 70 in the middle lane (which is clear) - can I keep going past the bloke in the outside lane or am I breaking the law?

I know "undertaking" is illegal, but undertaking is a manoeuvre (spelling?) and I am not making a manoeuvre I am just driving along in my lane. It says in the highway code that you can undertake if the lane to your right is "slower moving traffic"

Obviously the bloke shouldn't be there, and if I moved out to the third lane he probably wouldn't even notice me there, so is there some technicality which means I can undertake him and not get nicked for it?

or should I just ram the off the road for being a cock?

or should this be in Advanced Driving?

Edited by filski666 on Tuesday 15th July 06:53

[vonhosen]

You've missed out a couple of bits in your Highway Code quotes, such as in 'congested conditions', or 'slow moving queues' etc.

[filski666]

vonhosen said:

You've missed out a couple of bits in your Highway Code quotes, such as in 'congested conditions', or 'slow moving queues' etc.

I was hoping I could gloss over those bits in my defence - m'lud!

[filski666]

vonhosen said:

You've missed out a couple of bits in your Highway Code quotes, such as in 'congested conditions', or 'slow moving queues' etc.

so what are you supposed to do in those conditions? - move out to third lane and sit there like a lemon?

Another example for consideration...driving down the left lane on pretty much deserted motorway - car in third lane doing well under speed limit. Can I undertake here (as there is even empty lane between me and them!)

[bluepolarbear]

filski666 said:

I know "undertaking" is illegal[/footnote]

Undertaking is not illegal however the manner you conduct the undertake may breach other motoring laws.

[filski666]

this is the bit in the highway code I am referring to:

268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

surely this reads that I can undertake the car on the right by staying in my lane? As I was only going 5mph faster than car on right (otherwise I would have been speeding and I never do that!) so am in adjacent lanes of traffic at similar speeds, I am not weaving in and out of lanes to overtake. And it MUST be congested - else why is that driver in the outside lane??!?!?!

edited cos italics don't work when typed - have to paste from "formatting help" for some reason!

Edited by filski666 on Tuesday 15th July 08:33

[MillWheel]

As I read it - the outer lane IS congested, even if it is only one numpty on his own, so with appropriate care, you should pass him on the left.

[Big Rod]

filski666 said:

so what are you supposed to do in those conditions? - move out to third lane and sit there like a lemon?

Vonhosen has articulated that he'd do just that on a relatively recent thread on the subject.

filski666 said:

Another example for consideration...driving down the left lane on pretty much deserted motorway - car in third lane doing well under speed limit. Can I undertake here (as there is even empty lane between me and them!)

Myself and about three other disciplined drivers did this this morning. Weapons grade cock in lane 3 of a completely straight stretch of the M74 at around 5am doing 'well under the speed limit'. Us lot approaching in lane 1 at spot on 70, (I was conserving fuel and this was measured on GPS!). ALL of us passed him using lane 1 perfectly safely and unfettered. He never batted an eyelid and carried on in lane 3 even after another car further back approached him in lane 3 and indicated to him to move over. I didn't see what the last driver did as we went round a bend and he disappeared out of sight, but the car passed us a little later and it definitely wasn't BiB as I first suspected.

Oh to be as blissfully ignorant as him! I wonder if he manages to tie his shoelaces in the morning unassisted?

[5ltr-chim]

There was a case in court - last year if memory serves me right where they defined an "undertake"
Effectively it is moving to a lane to you're nearside, overtaking a vehicle now on you're offside and them moving back into the lane on you're offside.

My understanding is that it's perfectly legal to overtake on the nearside of another vehicle providing it is as with all driving done whilst exercising the greatest care & attention.

[filski666]

5ltr-chim said:

There was a case in court - last year if memory serves me right where they defined an "undertake"
Effectively it is moving to a lane to you're nearside, overtaking a vehicle now on you're offside and them moving back into the lane on you're offside.

My understanding is that it's perfectly legal to overtake on the nearside of another vehicle providing it is as with all driving done whilst exercising the greatest care & attention.

this is my point - as I am not "moving to a lane" in order to overtake - I am not undertaking - so thanks very much officer, i will be on my way then?

[Derek Smith]

There is no offence of passing on the nearside. In other words you cannot be prosecuted for doing so. It can be adduced as evidence of another offence, i.e. careless driving, but there must be circumstances of the manoeuver which makes the overtake careless.

The thing is, of course, that one can be taken to court for an overtake on the offside if there are circumstances which make the overtake careless.

Or to put it another way, it is advisable to ensure that when you overtake on the nearside you take steps to ensure that there are no elements of careless driving.

It is a common fallacy that the highway code makes law. My experiences as a process inspector proved that often police officers are similarly confused but it does not. It can be used as supporting evidence but there is no offence of overtaking on the nearside per se nor can the CPS adduce evidence of overtaking on the nearside on its own to prove any offence.

With regards to the case you mentioned: don't put any faith in these stories unless you can find the stated case to support it. Often magistrates courts have their own little fads and beliefs. In my force area we had certain courts which took urinating in the street as de facto evidence of disorderly behaviour. It took one chap who felt he was hard done by to challenge it and the courts had to abide by the laws of evidence again.

[NobleGuy]

filski666 said:

Obviously the bloke shouldn't be there, and if I moved out to the third lane he probably wouldn't even notice me there, so is there some technicality which means I can undertake him and not get nicked for it?

You can probably get stopped for it, even though it's the moron in the outside lane causing the problem in the first place.

filski666 said:

or should I just ram the off the road for being a cock?

That would be reasonable I think .

[Petemate]

I contributed recently on this very subject. Many many times on my Oxford-LHR commute I am in lane one or 2 on the M40 and there is the idiot at about 65 mph in the outer lane. I have been one of about 10 cars on one occasion that glided effortlessly past in lane 1, with lane 2 empty and lane 3 with said idiot. Sometimes on the stretch twixt Jct 4 & the M25, 4 lanes, there is stil some numpty in lane 4 dawdling along. Regular occurence, I think we have to get used to it, no-one seems to do anything. I can report one exception to that last remark though; months ago with about 6 or 7 other cars on the 4-lane stretch going home after J2, we all passed one such twit and a BiB pulled over the offending fool.
Pete

[matchmaker]

I used to commute between Stirling and Glasgow on the M80/A80/M80/M8. I could stay in lane 1 for the entire 25 mile journey, constantly passing a stream of traffic in lane 2 (we don't get a lane 3 up here)

I'd normally get to my destination faster than the lane 2 warriors/sheep.

Many times I never left lane 1 ONCE!

[Derek Smith]

matchmaker said:

I used to commute between Stirling and Glasgow on the M80/A80/M80/M8. I could stay in lane 1 for the entire 25 mile journey, constantly passing a stream of traffic in lane 2 (we don't get a lane 3 up here)

I'd normally get to my destination faster than the lane 2 warriors/sheep.

Many times I never left lane 1 ONCE!

My lad was at London University and I had to take his Mini up to him one Saturday after I'd worked on it. It had seen better decades and the noise level over about 50mph was too much. I came up from Brighton on the A(M)23 and once across the M25 I was less of a hinderence to other traffic. At one point where two lanes merged at Coulsden I was cut up quite dramatically by a 911 (I'm not Porsche bashing, just reporting). If I hadn't gone a bit up a dropped kerb he would have hit a car coming the other way. From then on I poodled along on the inside lane and me and this Porsche seemed stuck together. I must have overtaken him about 8 times, the last at the Aldwych. He finally got past me along Kingsway just as I was turning off. I felt obliged to give him a wave. It was not returned.

[phumy]

Derek Smith said:

matchmaker said:

I used to commute between Stirling and Glasgow on the M80/A80/M80/M8. I could stay in lane 1 for the entire 25 mile journey, constantly passing a stream of traffic in lane 2 (we don't get a lane 3 up here)

I'd normally get to my destination faster than the lane 2 warriors/sheep.

Many times I never left lane 1 ONCE!

My lad was at London University and I had to take his Mini up to him one Saturday after I'd worked on it. It had seen better decades and the noise level over about 50mph was too much. I came up from Brighton on the A(M)23 and once across the M25 I was less of a hinderence to other traffic. At one point where two lanes merged at Coulsden I was cut up quite dramatically by a 911 (I'm not Porsche bashing, just reporting). If I hadn't gone a bit up a dropped kerb he would have hit a car coming the other way. From then on I poodled along on the inside lane and me and this Porsche seemed stuck together. I must have overtaken him about 8 times, the last at the Aldwych. He finally got past me along Kingsway just as I was turning off. I felt obliged to give him a wave. It was not returned.

Was that the single middle digit wave

[streaky]

Derek Smith said:

... In my force area we had certain courts which took urinating in the street as de facto evidence of disorderly behaviour.

Now that really is taking the pi55 - Streaky