Angry - to say the least. But I will fight it!
Discussion
Hello Peeps
I'm new to this forum!
I need some advice, about speeding fines. Cutting a long story short, took a car on a test drive (old family saloon from independant dealers) all in order, was insured taxed MOT'd etc.
Okay was driving down this road through industrial estate, no other vehicles there at all. Cops flash from behind. Okay, pull over, yes Mr Plod - how can I help?
Told me I was doing 42 in 30 zone using the average calculation method, and they have been following me. My problem is this, that is the car was actually doing 30mph according to the odometer which I was watching. Now, I explained I was on a test drive and that the car wasn't mine. I have been in it less than 5 mins at this stage.
They didn't want to know and issued a ticket, which I told them I would take to court. Now, what I am thinking is, do I have a chance if i can get the car checked out to show it was either the car's odometer or their equipment? I am so cheesed of with them for just being so pig-headed. The car I was driving is no performace car at all, I have no record of bad driving, not even a parking fine.
Surely the magistrate using 'reasonability' would expect me to know in under 5 minuts in the car and driven less then 1 mile if the odo' is 100%
Your help appreciated! Please e-mail me if you feel it should stay private!
I'm new to this forum!
I need some advice, about speeding fines. Cutting a long story short, took a car on a test drive (old family saloon from independant dealers) all in order, was insured taxed MOT'd etc.
Okay was driving down this road through industrial estate, no other vehicles there at all. Cops flash from behind. Okay, pull over, yes Mr Plod - how can I help?
Told me I was doing 42 in 30 zone using the average calculation method, and they have been following me. My problem is this, that is the car was actually doing 30mph according to the odometer which I was watching. Now, I explained I was on a test drive and that the car wasn't mine. I have been in it less than 5 mins at this stage.
They didn't want to know and issued a ticket, which I told them I would take to court. Now, what I am thinking is, do I have a chance if i can get the car checked out to show it was either the car's odometer or their equipment? I am so cheesed of with them for just being so pig-headed. The car I was driving is no performace car at all, I have no record of bad driving, not even a parking fine.
Surely the magistrate using 'reasonability' would expect me to know in under 5 minuts in the car and driven less then 1 mile if the odo' is 100%
Your help appreciated! Please e-mail me if you feel it should stay private!
SFoxy said:
Hello Peeps
I'm new to this forum!
I need some advice, about speeding fines. Cutting a long story short, took a car on a test drive (old family saloon from independant dealers) all in order, was insured taxed MOT'd etc.
Okay was driving down this road through industrial estate, no other vehicles there at all. Cops flash from behind. Okay, pull over, yes Mr Plod - how can I help?
Told me I was doing 42 in 30 zone using the average calculation method, and they have been following me. My problem is this, that is the car was actually doing 30mph according to the odometer which I was watching. Now, I explained I was on a test drive and that the car wasn't mine. I have been in it less than 5 mins at this stage.
They didn't want to know and issued a ticket, which I told them I would take to court. Now, what I am thinking is, do I have a chance if i can get the car checked out to show it was either the car's odometer or their equipment? I am so cheesed of with them for just being so pig-headed. The car I was driving is no performace car at all, I have no record of bad driving, not even a parking fine.
Surely the magistrate using 'reasonability' would expect me to know in under 5 minuts in the car and driven less then 1 mile if the odo' is 100%
Your help appreciated! Please e-mail me if you feel it should stay private!
that why they call em pigs woops i mean pig headed
outlaw said:
that why they call em pigs woops i mean pig headed
Ahem...just getting in from work, outlaw?
Anyway, the simple answer is that you still commit the offence I'm afraid, as they'll say "ignorance is no excuse".
There was a thread on here a few weeks back by a guy who had a Fiat speedo sent back to the factory, could prove it was faulty, but still got done.
If you do go to court then be prepared for a lottery. You might get a bench who understand your plight and don't give you points, you might get a bigger fine and have to pay costs...who knows?
Not a happy answer for you I'm afraid.
SFoxy said:Just so you don't trip (there's a pun there
...
My problem is this, that is the car was actually doing 30mph according to the odometer which I was watching.
...
) up on a minor point [pedantmode_on] the odometer records distance covered, the speedometer displays the speed at which you were travelling [pedantmode_off] - StreakyAs the others say, the offence is complete and you are guilty. I would suggest that if you go to court and plead not guilty you will lose, although magistrates sometimes ignore the law.
Get to court early, see the Clerk of the Court (or assistant) and discuss your case. If you go for a fine but no points then you could well succeed. Apologise, both for speeding and wasting the Court's time.
However, get the Clerk on your side. He or she is the main force in the Court. You should not upset this person unless you have a death wish.
"It is difficult to judge speed in a car one is not used to driving. It did seem a little noisy (or some such) but as it's an old car (you are telling them you are poor) I thought this was normal. The speedo showed 30 and I believed (rather than thought as believe shows a trusting nature) it. I saw the police car behind and made sure I didn't break the limit."
Before you go in with an attitude, remember that they hold all the cards. Most on the bench want to be nice and not awarding points will make them feel better. If you refuse to accept that you are guilty of the offence although with mitigating circumstances then they might have the same problem, although only with the last bit.
You might well be asked why you were not aware that you were going 35% faster than the speed limit. That is your weak spot. If you'd only been going at 35 then no problem. 12 mph over might stretch the gullability of the bench.
Get to court early, see the Clerk of the Court (or assistant) and discuss your case. If you go for a fine but no points then you could well succeed. Apologise, both for speeding and wasting the Court's time.
However, get the Clerk on your side. He or she is the main force in the Court. You should not upset this person unless you have a death wish.
"It is difficult to judge speed in a car one is not used to driving. It did seem a little noisy (or some such) but as it's an old car (you are telling them you are poor) I thought this was normal. The speedo showed 30 and I believed (rather than thought as believe shows a trusting nature) it. I saw the police car behind and made sure I didn't break the limit."
Before you go in with an attitude, remember that they hold all the cards. Most on the bench want to be nice and not awarding points will make them feel better. If you refuse to accept that you are guilty of the offence although with mitigating circumstances then they might have the same problem, although only with the last bit.
You might well be asked why you were not aware that you were going 35% faster than the speed limit. That is your weak spot. If you'd only been going at 35 then no problem. 12 mph over might stretch the gullability of the bench.
Technially you don't have a leg to stand on
A bigger problem is that because of your negative exposure with the BiB you have decided to share your experiences - and fair enough. Yes, you were speeding - but where is the understanding and leniancy because of the circumstances (something similar that Gatsos/Talivans invoke).
IMHO this is just adding to the anti-BiB bonfire that is currently building up heat nicely in this country.
Were they traffic plod or standard beat officers in a car?
>> Edited by puggit on Saturday 15th November 10:24
A bigger problem is that because of your negative exposure with the BiB you have decided to share your experiences - and fair enough. Yes, you were speeding - but where is the understanding and leniancy because of the circumstances (something similar that Gatsos/Talivans invoke).
IMHO this is just adding to the anti-BiB bonfire that is currently building up heat nicely in this country.
Were they traffic plod or standard beat officers in a car?
>> Edited by puggit on Saturday 15th November 10:24
Hi People
I take all points on board, but since the car wasn't mine and I was in it less than 5 minutes and done under one mile surely they don't expect 'reasonably' that I would know the speedo was out ( I will be having it checked ). The plod that stopped me were traffic police, and uninterested in what I had to say. I didn't say anything about the allegation, but I pointed out it wasn't my car and that according to the car it was doing 30mph - they could have at least given me the opportunity to explain fully. It was dark, a poorly lit industrial road, in rain and wind. I want to go to court so I get my side heard, even if the result is still the same, too many people take it lying down. I am for fair punishment but how did they expect me to know the speedo may have been out, which I think could be the case, I am not trained to be able to detect it, the car had an MOT I did what I could reasonably I think before taking the wheel.
I think its a bit of a more unusual case so I am hoping the bench will take a reasonable view on it. If it was doing that speed then yes I am sorry, but I wouldnt knowingly do that speed when I can see the plod sat behind me in their car either. The motor dealer was sat in the car too, and backs up I was doing 30. If I'm going to get the fine and points I will take it where at least I can have my voice heard in the court.
Views appreciated.
I take all points on board, but since the car wasn't mine and I was in it less than 5 minutes and done under one mile surely they don't expect 'reasonably' that I would know the speedo was out ( I will be having it checked ). The plod that stopped me were traffic police, and uninterested in what I had to say. I didn't say anything about the allegation, but I pointed out it wasn't my car and that according to the car it was doing 30mph - they could have at least given me the opportunity to explain fully. It was dark, a poorly lit industrial road, in rain and wind. I want to go to court so I get my side heard, even if the result is still the same, too many people take it lying down. I am for fair punishment but how did they expect me to know the speedo may have been out, which I think could be the case, I am not trained to be able to detect it, the car had an MOT I did what I could reasonably I think before taking the wheel.
I think its a bit of a more unusual case so I am hoping the bench will take a reasonable view on it. If it was doing that speed then yes I am sorry, but I wouldnt knowingly do that speed when I can see the plod sat behind me in their car either. The motor dealer was sat in the car too, and backs up I was doing 30. If I'm going to get the fine and points I will take it where at least I can have my voice heard in the court.
Views appreciated.
You've got 2 more choices:
1) Contact the Association of British Drivers - I think they'll certainly be able to help you out here. www.abd.org.uk is their address. They do have a disclaimer saying they don't want to hear from you - but I think in this case they would (obviously they are trying to scare off the standard speeders).
2) Consider contacting the press. Please think long and hard before doing this! This kind of story could make the nationals and help pay any fines. However, it could also seriously upset the Police and the Court!
Obviously if you're going to court you may want to contact a trained solicitor
(list of solicitors on the ABD site)
1) Contact the Association of British Drivers - I think they'll certainly be able to help you out here. www.abd.org.uk is their address. They do have a disclaimer saying they don't want to hear from you - but I think in this case they would (obviously they are trying to scare off the standard speeders).
2) Consider contacting the press. Please think long and hard before doing this! This kind of story could make the nationals and help pay any fines. However, it could also seriously upset the Police and the Court!
Obviously if you're going to court you may want to contact a trained solicitor
(list of solicitors on the ABD site)Depends what you want to achieve by going to court. If you just want to tell everyone that you're angry, that's one thing. If you want to reduce the penalty, I'd read again very carefully what Bluebottle says - they'll need to believe that you're on the side of the law and that this was an unfortunate incident.
Only trouble is that there's a big difference between 42 and 30 (and if they took it as an average, that implies that sometimes you were over 42, and sometimes under), and unless you're either a very inexperienced driver or the car had notably different power/ride to what you're used to, you're going to struggle to convince them you didn't realise it was a bit quick for the limit.
Maybe one of our Plod will tell us if they are allowed to use the peak speed reading in court, or just the average? If your peak was say over 50, you've got no chance of convincing them you thought you were doing 30, with or without a speedo.
I had a similar (though more extreme) experience years ago - got done with an average over a mile of 98.8mph coming off a motorway on to an A road. The Plod's parting words to me... "Good job you had to go all the way round the roundabout, isn't it love?"
You'll be surprised to hear that I didn't argue, was just grateful he hadn't gone for the instant ban
Only trouble is that there's a big difference between 42 and 30 (and if they took it as an average, that implies that sometimes you were over 42, and sometimes under), and unless you're either a very inexperienced driver or the car had notably different power/ride to what you're used to, you're going to struggle to convince them you didn't realise it was a bit quick for the limit.
Maybe one of our Plod will tell us if they are allowed to use the peak speed reading in court, or just the average? If your peak was say over 50, you've got no chance of convincing them you thought you were doing 30, with or without a speedo.
I had a similar (though more extreme) experience years ago - got done with an average over a mile of 98.8mph coming off a motorway on to an A road. The Plod's parting words to me... "Good job you had to go all the way round the roundabout, isn't it love?"
You'll be surprised to hear that I didn't argue, was just grateful he hadn't gone for the instant ban 
You might make things worse by getting the speedo checked out.
If its found to be reading ok you will be still guilty of 42mph unless you can prove the BIB equipment was not calibrated or used incorrectly
If the speedo is out i think they could throw another charge at you,cant remember the exact phrase though
If its found to be reading ok you will be still guilty of 42mph unless you can prove the BIB equipment was not calibrated or used incorrectly
If the speedo is out i think they could throw another charge at you,cant remember the exact phrase though
gemini said:
you obviously werent wearng your BTaP dress rude girl
a little smile and yud have been jail free?
I was on my way home from a 'do' as it happens (teetotal).
Got a proper lecture though - about half an hour on observation, hazard perception (like I didn't see the traffic car following me for 3 miles 
), capabilities of my car etc. Much respect to them - they caught me at the right time (I think I was 22) and slowed me down a bit before I killed myself.Thanks for the replies!
Well I am hoping my solicitor will be able to argue my case. The car I was in is significantly different to the one I normally drive (I drive a 2 door sports Coupe) and it makes it all the worse that this 13 year old family hatch has got me this penalty. I haven't been driving all that long myself, and I try to use public transport alot of the time so perhaps I am not an "experienced" driver to know.
In any case is it my fault the speedo was out when I have been in the car 5 minutes? Its not the kind of thing you can just know sometimes. I suppose if the magistrate takes a different view I will have to pursue into the crown. I don't think its fair - I appreciated (and told the officer to that effect) what he was saying about speed, condition etc, but he didn't give a hoot what I said to him. I'm sure he could have used his descretion on this one given me a producer and fine.
I want to go to court to explain that I didn't knowingly break the limit. I was told it was doing 30mph and on that road in the conditions thats what it felt like. I'm not going in to argue the law are wrong neccessarily, but equally though that I think this could have been resolved without all the need to court etc.
as always, view please!
Well I am hoping my solicitor will be able to argue my case. The car I was in is significantly different to the one I normally drive (I drive a 2 door sports Coupe) and it makes it all the worse that this 13 year old family hatch has got me this penalty. I haven't been driving all that long myself, and I try to use public transport alot of the time so perhaps I am not an "experienced" driver to know.
In any case is it my fault the speedo was out when I have been in the car 5 minutes? Its not the kind of thing you can just know sometimes. I suppose if the magistrate takes a different view I will have to pursue into the crown. I don't think its fair - I appreciated (and told the officer to that effect) what he was saying about speed, condition etc, but he didn't give a hoot what I said to him. I'm sure he could have used his descretion on this one given me a producer and fine.
I want to go to court to explain that I didn't knowingly break the limit. I was told it was doing 30mph and on that road in the conditions thats what it felt like. I'm not going in to argue the law are wrong neccessarily, but equally though that I think this could have been resolved without all the need to court etc.
as always, view please!
yes, I see what you are saying.
However it was a car I was unused to, in the dark, on an industrial estate, downhill, around a bend in heavy rain and wind. And through all that i kept my eye on the speedo as I knew the plod was behind. If the car can take that bend at 42mph or close to that then its a miracle!
However it was a car I was unused to, in the dark, on an industrial estate, downhill, around a bend in heavy rain and wind. And through all that i kept my eye on the speedo as I knew the plod was behind. If the car can take that bend at 42mph or close to that then its a miracle!
Yes I am hoping to provide information to show it was either the car or the plod. It was showing 30mph, and two people can verify that additionally to me.
Something is clearly wrong. I don't see again in all reasonability how I am expected to know the speedo wasn't right having done under one mile in the car to start with, its a 13 year old family hatch, as i said if it can do that, on that road its better than i thought!
Something is clearly wrong. I don't see again in all reasonability how I am expected to know the speedo wasn't right having done under one mile in the car to start with, its a 13 year old family hatch, as i said if it can do that, on that road its better than i thought!
I hope you can get some evidence to show this was an unreasonable prosecution, but it's not looking hopeful.
[devilsadvocate]
old car (mechanically sound?) ...unfamiliar...heavy rain...wind...dark...industrial estate where traffic could be moving at any time of day or night...hill...bend...driving to the conditions...[/devilsadvocate]
See what I mean? I think Bluebottle's suggestion is much simpler and likely to get you a better result.
[devilsadvocate]
old car (mechanically sound?) ...unfamiliar...heavy rain...wind...dark...industrial estate where traffic could be moving at any time of day or night...hill...bend...driving to the conditions...[/devilsadvocate]
See what I mean? I think Bluebottle's suggestion is much simpler and likely to get you a better result.
Sfoxy
You mention the average speed method and that you did less than a mile. I assume that somewhere in your short journey the BiB approached you from behind and somewhere further on the stopped you.
Over what distance did the BiB claim they followed you ?
Did they mention Vascar or are they relying on speedometer observation ?
There is a minimum distance ( 0.2 mile ) for Vascar. I do not know what the guidelines for pseedometer observation are but there is potential for very significant error in pursuits over short distances. If this is the case it would be possible to argue that while their observations of their own vehicle speed may be correct within limits of accuracy of their speedometer, the inference that the same speed applied to your vehicle is flawed.
Of course they could be 'roughly right'
You mention the average speed method and that you did less than a mile. I assume that somewhere in your short journey the BiB approached you from behind and somewhere further on the stopped you.
Over what distance did the BiB claim they followed you ?
Did they mention Vascar or are they relying on speedometer observation ?
There is a minimum distance ( 0.2 mile ) for Vascar. I do not know what the guidelines for pseedometer observation are but there is potential for very significant error in pursuits over short distances. If this is the case it would be possible to argue that while their observations of their own vehicle speed may be correct within limits of accuracy of their speedometer, the inference that the same speed applied to your vehicle is flawed.
Of course they could be 'roughly right'
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