RE: ABD call for Clarity
Discussion
nonegreen said:
I just think the ABD should adopt the dame aproach, after all this is politics not road safety.
Nonegreen, glad diplomatic relations are restored, but I'm now deeply concerned about your preferred campaigning techniques.
The "Dame Approach"? Is this where us ABDers lobby Alistair Darling by dressing up in women's clothes, talking in falsetto voices, and beating him repeatedly with our handbags?
It's got to be worth a try ;-)
Mark
MMC said:
I just think the ABD should adopt the dame aproach, after all this is politics not road safety.
Nonegreen, glad diplomatic relations are restored, but I'm now deeply concerned about your preferred campaigning techniques.
The "Dame Approach"? Is this where us ABDers lobby Alistair Darling by dressing up in women's clothes, talking in falsetto voices, and beating him repeatedly with our handbags?
It's got to be worth a try ;-)
Mark
It has to be better than trying to understand the
wits points of view 
AmandaY said:
Suggesting that Red Ken murders 900 people a year would just get the suggestor put in the same pigeonhole as the looney brigade. The point is that it is the anti-car brigade who are the fanatics fond of emotional blackmail in an attempt to whip up hysteria against cars.
Attempt?
The last time I looked they had succeeded!
AmandaY said:
We car drivers have to be seen to be above such nonsense.
We are.
Now, remind me:
Have they scrapped the motorway speed limits? Have all major urban radial and ring routes got sensible high speed limits? Do we have a jaywalking law?
Or are they trying to cut motorway and motorway standard road limits? Are traffic lights phased to strangle transport routes? Are even major urban roads traffic calmed? Are city centres being turned into car free zones? Are whole towns being turned into 20mph zones? Are nearly all police authorities in "Safety" Partnerships? Do we have more speed cameras than the rest of the world put together?
Am I missing something here?
Is there a reason I haven't thought of for why the loonies have got their way and reason has been ignored for decades?
There is no point in arguing the facts with a couple of bereaved parents, the very fact that you are arguing will label you a loony speedophile.
Think of the children: they ARE dead.
Demonstrate who HAS killed them.
You will still have a baying mob, but they will be baying for the blood of the real perpetrators.
Instead of people trying to allow the life blood of the economy to flow through the arteries of the nation, and so fund the NHS where tens of thousands die in accidents and hundreds of thousands die unneccessarily; winter fuel allowances for the 20,000 who die of hypothermia each year; aid; you name it!
AmandaY said:
This is really the fundamental underlying problem with the ABD. They seem to be so easily sidetracked into a debate which is totally spurious. The reality is that speed cameras have not saved 1 life since they were installed. If they have not saved a life then they are a totally useless device and should be scrapped. There is no need to indulge in a debate about whether they are placed in blackspots or not. It would be more useful to counter the government spin by demanding that Ken livingstone be put on trial for Murdering 900 people annually by failing to provide and indeed deliberately causing a meltdown of the inner London road transport system. It would have been more useful to make copy from the fact that the former Lib dem haed vegetabalist is a pervert. But no, give Mark Macarthur Christie a quick stir and he will come out with a torrent of reasoned drivel which always accepts that the very unreasonable Government has a point. What a tosser.
Actually there is very much a need to indulge in reasoned debate. Jumping up and down and shouting that all cameras should be scrapped isn't going to get anybody anywhere, and 'nonegreen' is living in cloud cockoo land if he/she thinks it is. Suggesting that Red Ken murders 900 people a year would just get the suggestor put in the same pigeonhole as the looney brigade. The point is that it is the anti-car brigade who are the fanatics fond of emotional blackmail in an attempt to whip up hysteria against cars. We car drivers have to be seen to be above such nonsense, and the ABD seems to me to be leading the way. The government's speed camera con is falling apart at the seams, and the ABD's constant exposure of their lies is a big factor in this.
Amanda you are talking out of your bottom. The ambulance service are suggesting that Mad Ken is killing 900 a year because he is. It is a fact. There is no need to schmooze with idiots just because a few celebs on the A list are championiong stupidity this week. We are basically a free nation and we can say whatever we like. When green scum broadcast if we all laugh and throw rotten fruit they will eventually go away. When green scum blockade Esso stations if we go on foot and smack them in the mouth they will not go again. When the political trash erect more revenue cameras if we show up en masse and rip them out by the root the vermin will get disheartened and pick on some other piece of trivia to fuel their zest for mediocraty.
It is not resonable to erect speed cameras, witness a significant rise in deaths and then lie about the effects of the cameras. We do not need to concede the benefits, we can laugh at the stupidity of these people. We should show up outside the offices of the CPS and demand the arrest of the safety camera partnerships and then ensure they are at least charged with criminal negligence.
You clearly have no understanding of history and the nature of public opinion. The very people who benefitted from trade unionism fell in with public opinion against it. Churchill, recently named the greatest Briton was the subject of ridicule during the 1930s for his "silly" warnings about Hitler. In the end the stupid man with his worthless bit of paper was ousted in favour of a man who did not compromise. When the fools around Churchill talked rubbish they found themselves counting paperclips the following day. There is nothing robust about the agruments, the morality or the persona of the current crop of spineless rubbish we are hoodwinked into voting for. All that is required is the will to sink their arguments and they will disappear without trace. Remember 80% of the people will believe what you tell them, high time the truth was out and no need for considering the spin from Begg, Livinstone et al.
Hi! Nonegreen, Whilst I agree with your sentiments, I have to disagree with your final analysis old chap.
Taking the long view, When Margret Thatcher began her privatisation of everything 20 odd years ago, it was not JUST her personal desire to see it happen, it was the beginning of something more.
Since that time Governments all over the world have been DITCHING their responsibilities in industry, services(now almost all outsourced to private companies), Health, schools, Electric, Gas, Water, Railways and yes, police functions (like road policing).
The fact that this is happening all over the world tells you that this Globalisation has been decided at G8-G9 meetings at the highest world level, to cut Government spending WORLD WIDE, and hence: To cut Taxes for the MEGA-rich. The small man (including small businesses is; going to pay for it all).
Therefore, Everything NOW must "pay for itself".
True, the details may be left to individual Governments, but know where the "pressure" is really coming from, NOT from the left! but from the right! The force behind this is world capitalism.
British Governments of the "right wing" persuasion may "tinker" with the edges, but they will NOT change the policy! Speed cameras are a self funding road policing system!
I fear that Privatised road policing/pricing is here to stay. It's NOT good reading, is it?
>> Edited by 8Pack on Monday 24th May 01:43
Taking the long view, When Margret Thatcher began her privatisation of everything 20 odd years ago, it was not JUST her personal desire to see it happen, it was the beginning of something more.
Since that time Governments all over the world have been DITCHING their responsibilities in industry, services(now almost all outsourced to private companies), Health, schools, Electric, Gas, Water, Railways and yes, police functions (like road policing).
The fact that this is happening all over the world tells you that this Globalisation has been decided at G8-G9 meetings at the highest world level, to cut Government spending WORLD WIDE, and hence: To cut Taxes for the MEGA-rich. The small man (including small businesses is; going to pay for it all).
Therefore, Everything NOW must "pay for itself".
True, the details may be left to individual Governments, but know where the "pressure" is really coming from, NOT from the left! but from the right! The force behind this is world capitalism.
British Governments of the "right wing" persuasion may "tinker" with the edges, but they will NOT change the policy! Speed cameras are a self funding road policing system!
I fear that Privatised road policing/pricing is here to stay. It's NOT good reading, is it?
>> Edited by 8Pack on Monday 24th May 01:43
8Pack said:
Hi! Nonegreen, Whilst I agree with your sentiments, I have to disagree with your final analysis old chap.
Taking the long view, When Margret Thatcher began her privatisation of everything 20 odd years ago, it was not JUST her personal desire to see it happen, it was the beginning of something more.
Since that time Governments all over the world have been DITCHING their responsibilities in industry, services(now almost all outsourced to private companies), Health, schools, Electric, Gas, Water, Railways and yes, police functions (like road policing).
The fact that this is happening all over the world tells you that this Globalisation has been decided at G8-G9 meetings at the highest world level, to cut Government spending WORLD WIDE, and hence: To cut Taxes for the MEGA-rich. The small man (including small businesses is; going to pay for it all).
Therefore, Everything NOW must "pay for itself".
True, the details may be left to individual Governments, but know where the "pressure" is really coming from, NOT from the left! but from the right! The force behind this is world capitalism.
British Governments of the "right wing" persuasion may "tinker" with the edges, but they will NOT change the policy! Speed cameras are a self funding road policing system!
I fear that Privatised road policing/pricing is here to stay. It's NOT good reading, is it?
>> Edited by 8Pack on Monday 24th May 01:43
If we assume just for arguments sake you are entirely correct. Applying the sentiments I outlined would result in a political solution, which I think we will arrive at anyway which is the scrapping of the points system. Nothing strikes fear into the political trash more than the V word (Vote).
This then poses the question "would you be bothered by a driving quickly tax"?
Reasonable argument has started to work but the Government's so-called compromise is to cut the 10%+2 leeway, levy 2 points for previously ignored 'just-over' offences and increase the penalties for higher overspeeds. Reasoned argument does not get through to the New Labour robots and so I have come to the opinion that direct action is now required.
It worked for the Poll Tax, fuel tax protestors (a bit) and French farmers so let's do something that cannot be ignored.
Demonstrations outside Magistrates Courts might raise some awareness of the corruption endemic in the system. (This is one aspect that has been totally ignored by the mass media).
It worked for the Poll Tax, fuel tax protestors (a bit) and French farmers so let's do something that cannot be ignored.
Demonstrations outside Magistrates Courts might raise some awareness of the corruption endemic in the system. (This is one aspect that has been totally ignored by the mass media).
Oh yeah, it worked a treat for the fuel protestors, fuel is just sooooooooo cheap now, isn't it?
It also worked well for the anti-war protestors didn't it?
The best thing about "direct action", is that it raises awareness so that Government might be more receptive to well-reasoned response, such as that proffered by MMC and the ABD (sounds like a rap group!).
But when all is said and done, there is no way the Govt are going to give in to - or even talk to - extremists (except for those behind their own policies of course). It would be Political Suicide!
The ABD are doing a great job of becoming the voice of reason in comparison to the fanatics like BRAKE and T2000. The longer this goes on the more clout they will have, the more support they will generate, and the more difficult it will be to resist their logic.
And as regards speed limits, you have more chance of getting head-butted by the Pope than getting speed limits revoked, whatever the logic behind it. A new 80 limit on motorways is a possibility, so what's wrong with campaigning for something that is possibly achievable, and a significant step in the right direction.
It also worked well for the anti-war protestors didn't it?
The best thing about "direct action", is that it raises awareness so that Government might be more receptive to well-reasoned response, such as that proffered by MMC and the ABD (sounds like a rap group!).
But when all is said and done, there is no way the Govt are going to give in to - or even talk to - extremists (except for those behind their own policies of course). It would be Political Suicide!
The ABD are doing a great job of becoming the voice of reason in comparison to the fanatics like BRAKE and T2000. The longer this goes on the more clout they will have, the more support they will generate, and the more difficult it will be to resist their logic.
And as regards speed limits, you have more chance of getting head-butted by the Pope than getting speed limits revoked, whatever the logic behind it. A new 80 limit on motorways is a possibility, so what's wrong with campaigning for something that is possibly achievable, and a significant step in the right direction.
BlackStuff said:
But when all is said and done, there is no way the Govt are going to give in to - or even talk to - extremists (except for those behind their own policies of course). It would be Political Suicide!
Like the IRA?
The Suffragettes?
The Palestinians?
The Jewish terrorists?
Any number of African terrorists?
nonegreen said:
If we assume just for arguments sake you are entirely correct. Applying the sentiments I outlined would result in a political solution, which I think we will arrive at anyway which is the scrapping of the points system. Nothing strikes fear into the political trash more than the V word (Vote).
This then poses the question "would you be bothered by a driving quickly tax"?
Hi! Nonegreen, Sorry for the delay, only just "got back in the saddle again!
Yes, I'm NOT criticising you in any way, just trying to point out what we are all up against. Every Government now is trying to "reduce" it's outgoings so that it can reduce taxes for big industry, and are looking for ways to make things cheaper (for THEM at any rate).
You are right to protest, as you say, what they fear most is losing their well paid political jobs with good protected pensions. How much we can MOVE them I don't know, but I agree with you, the more public outcry the better!
Perhaps making it a major issue in the public eye on the run-up from now to election may focus their thoughts on it.
We have seen on here that the Police are not happy with the situation, after all it is the trafpol who are losing their jobs because of it. (Notice the "NOT core function" post),The political masters are changing the rules. And I'm Not convinced that any other political party would change it by much.
Your last point, paying for speed, well I think it may well happen, I think shortly all motorways will be toll (maintenance contracted out in return for toll rights). To placate us they may well allow higher speeds.
I don't like any of the above but I fear that's the way we are headed!
>> Edited by 8Pack on Monday 24th May 23:03
>> Edited by 8Pack on Monday 24th May 23:05
8Pack said:
If we assume just for arguments sake you are entirely correct. Applying the sentiments I outlined would result in a political solution, which I think we will arrive at anyway which is the scrapping of the points system. Nothing strikes fear into the political trash more than the V word (Vote).
This then poses the question "would you be bothered by a driving quickly tax"?
Hi! Nonegreen, Sorry for the delay, only just "got back in the saddle again!
Yes, I'm NOT criticising you in any way, just trying to point out what we are all up against. Every Government now is trying to "reduce" it's outgoings so that it can reduce taxes for big industry, and are looking for ways to make things cheaper (for THEM at any rate).
You are right to protest, as you say, what they fear most is losing their well paid political jobs with good protected pensions. How much we can MOVE them I don't know, but I agree with you, the more public outcry the better!
Perhaps making it a major issue in the public eye on the run-up from now to election may focus their thoughts on it.
We have seen on here that the Police are not happy with the situation, after all it is the trafpol who are losing their jobs because of it. (Notice the "NOT core function" post),The political masters are changing the rules. And I'm Not convinced that any other political party would change it by much.
Your last point, paying for speed, well I think it may well happen, I think shortly all motorways will be toll (maintenance contracted out in return for toll rights). To placate us they may well allow higher speeds.
I don't like any of the above but I fear that's the way we are headed!
>> Edited by 8Pack on Monday 24th May 23:03
>> Edited by 8Pack on Monday 24th May 23:05
Most of what you said makes sense 8pack, just one small point. I spend government money as part of my job sometimes. I see no attempt from the government to stem the flow of public funds. On the contrary, Gordon is a tax and spend man fundamentally. There are of course spending cuts on the essentials such as health, education, defense and police. Spending increases abound on road humps, traffic lights, scamera partnerships. For example the cost of implementing the 100% checks on free prescription eligability is almost as much as it would be to just let everyone have free prescriptions. Far from making savings, certain agencies are polluted with cash and wasteing it with genuine abandon. A truly sensible government would redeploy hundreds of thousands of these civil servants in much needed areas such as road hump removal, traffic light demolition and new roadbuilding, not to mention all the street cleaning and personal services the elderly are in need of. I would call it a kind of "care in the community" scheme.
What do you think? Once again,nonegreen, sorry for the lag! just been watching "Auto motor & Sport" on the TV.
I didn't know about the funding for scamera pratnerships, is this for the new ones? I thought they actually returned money to Gordon now?
You're right about the prescriptions though, and you'd be surprised at how many don't take them anyway. Ask any chemist who gets them returned unused after someone dies, they have to throw them away!
As far as roads are concerned, I'm amazed that any Government would want to SLOW traffic down, instead of looking for ways to help traffic flow, thereby aiding the economy.
One thing always strikes me though, when on the news, they show you a long rush hour traffic jam from a helicopter. Look in the opposing lane, I bet you it's empty!...And in the evening? Guess what? Yes! that lanes chocker! and the other ones empty. We don't need bigger roads, we need jobs in different places so everyone is NOT going the same bloody way! A little social engineering m'thinks!
P.S. Just an after thought, maybe the drive to prevent accidents (as THEY see it, is to lower NHS spending - I don't know!).
>> Edited by 8Pack on Tuesday 25th May 00:30
I didn't know about the funding for scamera pratnerships, is this for the new ones? I thought they actually returned money to Gordon now?
You're right about the prescriptions though, and you'd be surprised at how many don't take them anyway. Ask any chemist who gets them returned unused after someone dies, they have to throw them away!
As far as roads are concerned, I'm amazed that any Government would want to SLOW traffic down, instead of looking for ways to help traffic flow, thereby aiding the economy.
One thing always strikes me though, when on the news, they show you a long rush hour traffic jam from a helicopter. Look in the opposing lane, I bet you it's empty!...And in the evening? Guess what? Yes! that lanes chocker! and the other ones empty. We don't need bigger roads, we need jobs in different places so everyone is NOT going the same bloody way! A little social engineering m'thinks!
P.S. Just an after thought, maybe the drive to prevent accidents (as THEY see it, is to lower NHS spending - I don't know!).
>> Edited by 8Pack on Tuesday 25th May 00:30
bogush said:
But when all is said and done, there is no way the Govt are going to give in to - or even talk to - extremists (except for those behind their own policies of course). It would be Political Suicide!
Like the IRA?
The Suffragettes?
The Palestinians?
The Jewish terrorists?
Any number of African terrorists?
Not sure which of those have actually caused Blair to cave in? Possibly the IRA, but only to the extent that he saw Political Mileage in it.
If you want any sort of positive response from a government, and in particular THIS government, you need to be offering them a clear self-interest in doing so. The IRA did, the petrol protests didn't. Campaigning for no speed limits does not, as (rightly or wrongly) most people currently believe all the claptrap Govt propaganda about "speed kills".
Step 1 is to re-educate people with the truth, so that the majority are clearly on our side. Step 2 is to sell this to the Government as a vote winner. Then there may be some movement in our favour.
And this is exactly the approach that the ABD seem to be taking, with increasing success.
BlackStuff said:
Step 1 is to re-educate people with the truth, so that the majority are clearly on our side. Step 2 is to sell this to the Government as a vote winner. Then there may be some movement in our favour.
And this is exactly the approach that the ABD seem to be taking, with increasing success.
But didn't this discussion start with objections to telling the truth about Livingstone causing deaths?
And ask the ABD what their position is on telling the truth about it making economic sense to convert railways to roads?
streaky said:
BlackStuff said:
... most people currently believe ...
If I had a penny for every time I've heard or read that ... I'd be richer than Bill Gates. So tell me, how many is "most"? - Streaky
Please don't quote me out of context.
The point I was making (if you read the sentence in full) was that emotive propaganda will deliver a working majority. It worked for Hitler, it's working for Blair!
But it can work for us too. When I speak to people about speed cameras they mostly seem caught between two stools. On the one hand they don't believe that they were being a danger when they were caught speeding, but on the other hand they believe that in general it is dangerous to drive fast because "it stands to reason, doesn't it?" or some such emotive justification.
So people are already caught in a conflict between fact, common sense, and propaganda. What the ABD are doing is reinforcing the common sense approach, mostly by sensible, cold, logical fact.
I also believe that there is an increasing backlash against the 90's fad of spin and propaganda. Meanwhile the explosion of the internet brings with it the possibility of researching your own truth to the masses, as everything we are told these days can now be independently verified by anyone who can be bothered to work a web browser. I think the next decade will be the decade where people seek the bare, unadulterated truth, and the ABD are already well ahead of the Government in this aspect of the game. Well done MMC and gang - long may this continue...
>> Edited by BlackStuff on Tuesday 25th May 20:59
BlackStuff said:
When I speak to people about speed cameras they mostly seem caught between two stools. On the one hand they don't believe that they were being a danger when they were caught speeding, but on the other hand they believe that in general it is dangerous to drive fast because "it stands to reason, doesn't it?" or some such emotive justification.
Having tried to dig into this particular set of beliefs, I've come to the opinion that drivers know (effectively) by instinct that speed cameras are bad road safety policy and rigid speed limit enforcement is a waste of time, effort, good will and everything else. However they are prepared to suspend their instinctive beliefs when confronted with government "evidence".
But the good news is that drivers are only too pleased to hear that they were "right all along" and that it's the government talking out of it's collective bottom.
In this respect we have a downhill struggle, and it's already the foundation of our inevitable victory.
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
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