Congestion Charge not working (?)
Discussion
Transport for London's figures show that the number of vehicles entering the central toll zone has edged up 10 per cent to 110,000 a day since the £5 charge was introduced. A study by the AA indicates that the initial 3mph improvement in average traffic speeds within the zone had reduced to 2mph by the end of the year.
A survey by the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors found that 90 per cent of central London retailers and 75 per cent of leisure businesses - such as theatres and restaurants - believed the charge had reduced custom. The institute, which supports the toll, also suggested that its introduction had led to a fall in commercial rents.
Delivery firms, which were supposed to benefit particularly from the reduction in congestion, gave the scheme an overwhelming thumbs-down. Nearly 70 per cent said their journeys were no faster than 12 months ago.
Three quarters of appeals against the charge have been won by drivers. Despite TfL's efforts to reduce errors and trace non-payers, more than 20% of the fines issued have been ignored.
However, the mayor's office said that cars have kept off the busiest roads in central London since the charge was introduced in February, and traffic levels have fallen by around 40% [I wonder what basis they're using for their measurements - S].
This means that because of a lack of drivers paying £5 each day, TfL's budget for the scheme will be £65 million short by the end of the financial year, according to the latest estimates. During a meeting of the Greater London Assembly's budget committee, Mr Livingstone and TfL bosses acknowledged that the net income generated by the charge would be just half the £130 million originally planned.
LibDem Sally Hamwee, who chairs both the budget committee and the Assembly, said, "This is a substantial shortfall and I am quite alarmed," she said. "The things that get cut in these situations are things that are less high profile, like road safety, provision for pedestrians and cyclists." ["Safety" and "less high profile" in the same sentence? Hey, Mary from BRAKE, here's one you haven't converted ... - S]
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So the scheme isn't working to reduce congestion (measured by journey time) and isn't raking in the money promised by Ken.
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Mind you, the Grauniad has a very different take on it:
"London's £5-a-day congestion charge will celebrate its first birthday tomorrow with a qualified thumbs-up from the capital's businesses, which overwhelmingly back the scheme but want improvements to its administration.
A study by the business lobbying firm London First will reveal that 72% of companies believe the road charging experiment is working, with 14% convinced it is a failure."
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You pays your money (or not) and takes your choice.
Streaky
>>> Edited by streaky on Monday 16th February 11:59
A survey by the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors found that 90 per cent of central London retailers and 75 per cent of leisure businesses - such as theatres and restaurants - believed the charge had reduced custom. The institute, which supports the toll, also suggested that its introduction had led to a fall in commercial rents.
Delivery firms, which were supposed to benefit particularly from the reduction in congestion, gave the scheme an overwhelming thumbs-down. Nearly 70 per cent said their journeys were no faster than 12 months ago.
Three quarters of appeals against the charge have been won by drivers. Despite TfL's efforts to reduce errors and trace non-payers, more than 20% of the fines issued have been ignored.
However, the mayor's office said that cars have kept off the busiest roads in central London since the charge was introduced in February, and traffic levels have fallen by around 40% [I wonder what basis they're using for their measurements - S].
This means that because of a lack of drivers paying £5 each day, TfL's budget for the scheme will be £65 million short by the end of the financial year, according to the latest estimates. During a meeting of the Greater London Assembly's budget committee, Mr Livingstone and TfL bosses acknowledged that the net income generated by the charge would be just half the £130 million originally planned.
LibDem Sally Hamwee, who chairs both the budget committee and the Assembly, said, "This is a substantial shortfall and I am quite alarmed," she said. "The things that get cut in these situations are things that are less high profile, like road safety, provision for pedestrians and cyclists." ["Safety" and "less high profile" in the same sentence? Hey, Mary from BRAKE, here's one you haven't converted ... - S]
--
So the scheme isn't working to reduce congestion (measured by journey time) and isn't raking in the money promised by Ken.
--
Mind you, the Grauniad has a very different take on it:
"London's £5-a-day congestion charge will celebrate its first birthday tomorrow with a qualified thumbs-up from the capital's businesses, which overwhelmingly back the scheme but want improvements to its administration.
A study by the business lobbying firm London First will reveal that 72% of companies believe the road charging experiment is working, with 14% convinced it is a failure."
--
You pays your money (or not) and takes your choice.
Streaky
>>> Edited by streaky on Monday 16th February 11:59
So even stopping all roadworks and re-phasing the traffic lights just before the charge was introduced haven't managed to reduce congestion?
This is another scheme like Scameras that can never work by simple virtue of the fact that if it does work, it fails to make enough money to cover operation.
The question I always pondered was "Why only £5?". This is not enough to stop most entering London (it's a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of parking once you get here!), so has to be purely to raise some revenue. £20 a day would stop all but the most critical journeys, but that wouldn't make any money and would kill off what remains of the captial's public transport.
Walk down Oxford Street at lunchtime to see how the charge is failing - it's quicker to walk the length of Oxford Street than it is to go by bus, and this is a road that only allows buses and taxis along it's length!
Reducing congestion in London is simple - provide a public transport system that is clean and efficient, and many of the current drivers might actually prefer not to drive!
Or is that too easy?
This is another scheme like Scameras that can never work by simple virtue of the fact that if it does work, it fails to make enough money to cover operation.
The question I always pondered was "Why only £5?". This is not enough to stop most entering London (it's a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of parking once you get here!), so has to be purely to raise some revenue. £20 a day would stop all but the most critical journeys, but that wouldn't make any money and would kill off what remains of the captial's public transport.
Walk down Oxford Street at lunchtime to see how the charge is failing - it's quicker to walk the length of Oxford Street than it is to go by bus, and this is a road that only allows buses and taxis along it's length!
Reducing congestion in London is simple - provide a public transport system that is clean and efficient, and many of the current drivers might actually prefer not to drive!
Or is that too easy?
wiggy001 said:
Walk down Oxford Street at lunchtime to see how the charge is failing - it's quicker to walk the length of Oxford Street than it is to go by bus, and this is a road that only allows buses and taxis along it's length!
Walk down Oxford Street? You'll die of poisoning from the diesel fumes! The road in London that proves where traffic pollution really comes from, and the lesson is ignored by those in command. I wonder why?
In my experience traffic in central london has dropped since the onset of the c/c
buses now travel faster (meaning minimal exposure to the hell that is the tube) and you are less likely to get mown down at pedestrian crossings (still optional)
Saying that I still can't stand Red Ken or his deputies and am looking forward to using my vote against them in the next mayoral elections.
buses now travel faster (meaning minimal exposure to the hell that is the tube) and you are less likely to get mown down at pedestrian crossings (still optional)
Saying that I still can't stand Red Ken or his deputies and am looking forward to using my vote against them in the next mayoral elections.
bga said:I would laugh my socks of if the Labour candidate lost after all the effort New Labour have put in to breaking their own party rules to let him back in early
Saying that I still can't stand Red Ken or his deputies and am looking forward to using my vote against them in the next mayoral elections.
icamm said:
Saying that I still can't stand Red Ken or his deputies and am looking forward to using my vote against them in the next mayoral elections.
I would laugh my socks of if the Labour candidate lost after all the effort New Labour have put in to breaking their own party rules to let him back in early
Here's hoping it goes belly up! :fingerscrossed:
Of course the kengestion charge is working!! I REFUSE to enter London and have to pay for it..... hopefully some of the larger companies there will take commie scum ken to task about this........ I hope and pray that that newt-loving jackass gets his comeupance at the next election.... Don't they execute old mayors to save on the pension fund??? If not they damned well should!!!
JMGS4 said:
Of course the kengestion charge is working!! I REFUSE to enter London and have to pay for it..... hopefully some of the larger companies there will take commie scum ken to task about this........ I hope and pray that that newt-loving jackass gets his comeupance at the next election.... Don't they execute old mayors to save on the pension fund??? If not they damned well should!!!
Ooooh. Almost a Death Threat....
Feeling better now
>> Edited by Don on Monday 16th February 14:10
bga said:
In my experience traffic in central london has dropped since the onset of the c/c
buses now travel faster (meaning minimal exposure to the hell that is the tube) and you are less likely to get mown down at pedestrian crossings (still optional)
Saying that I still can't stand Red Ken or his deputies and am looking forward to using my vote against them in the next mayoral elections.
I'd be interested to know where you are basing that on as roads around Oxford Street, Regents Street and Park Lane all seem as busy as ever!
Also, the roadworks that were taking place along High Holborn miraculously disappeared over the weekend before the charge was introduced. I understand this happened all over London.
By virtue of the fact that TFL will be £65 million short, Traffic must be going somewhere else. This must mean either a massive flouting of the law, showing a massive inability on TFL's behalf of actually catching the dodgers (and even when they are caught 75% get off without a fine) or somebody is lying. I can see the arguements both for and against the charge, just at the moment the statistics are being used to both justify its success and failure. Who's right? and on the basis of the stats should it be allowed to continue? And will TFL be poaching Tax payers money to bridge the gap?
tvrslag said:
By virtue of the fact that TFL will be £65 million short, Traffic must be going somewhere else. This must mean either a massive flouting of the law, showing a massive inability on TFL's behalf of actually catching the dodgers (and even when they are caught 75% get off without a fine) or somebody is lying. I can see the arguements both for and against the charge, just at the moment the statistics are being used to both justify its success and failure. Who's right? and on the basis of the stats should it be allowed to continue? And will TFL be poaching Tax payers money to bridge the gap?
TFL and Ken are lying!!! the Kengestion charge for all of Lunnun inside the M25 is coming, the scumbag is already talking about it!!! and since when does a bureaucratic organisation like TFL/London council EVER tell the truth.....
£65,000,000 raised by the scheme I work this out to be 62,500 less cars per day (assuming a six day week)is this a lot of cars for a city this size.
What does suprise me is that the 2mph raise in overall speed is just that, I would have thought they would have said a 25% increase in speed (or some such figure).
What does suprise me is that the 2mph raise in overall speed is just that, I would have thought they would have said a 25% increase in speed (or some such figure).
wiggy001 said:
In my experience traffic in central london has dropped since the onset of the c/c
buses now travel faster (meaning minimal exposure to the hell that is the tube) and you are less likely to get mown down at pedestrian crossings (still optional)
Saying that I still can't stand Red Ken or his deputies and am looking forward to using my vote against them in the next mayoral elections.
I'd be interested to know where you are basing that on as roads around Oxford Street, Regents Street and Park Lane all seem as busy as ever!
Also, the roadworks that were taking place along High Holborn miraculously disappeared over the weekend before the charge was introduced. I understand this happened all over London.
IMO you can now get from one end of Oxford St/Regents Street/Picadilly/Embankment/Strang etc to the other faster then before if you are using bus/taxi. Access to places such as Waterloo, London Bridge, Victoria is far easier by public transport due to what appears to be decreased traffic. I mainly work in London Bridge and Strand and find it easier as a pedestrian then before.
All in IMO.
I'm not advocating the system and as it has said before, the same effect would be realised if the public transport infrastructure was better. However that would mean investing rather than plain robbery so would not appeal to those who are in a position to (ab)use their powers.
JMGS4 said:
Of course the kengestion charge is working!! I REFUSE to enter London and have to pay for it..... hopefully some of the larger companies there will take commie scum ken to task about this........ I hope and pray that that newt-loving jackass gets his comeupance at the next election.... Don't they execute old mayors to save on the pension fund??? If not they damned well should!!!
You don't like him much do you?
Plotloss. Why do Kensington and Chelsea want to be included in the zone? Are they stupid?
streaky said:
Transport for London's figures show that the number of vehicles entering the central toll zone has edged up 10 per cent to 110,000 a day since the £5 charge was introduced.
That seems reasonable. The real comparison that shows a dramatic fall is that between current numbers and those BEFORE the charge, not since the charge.
You have to be very sure what you are reading.
streaky said:
Transport for London's figures show that the number of vehicles entering the central toll zone has edged up 10 per cent to 110,000 a day since the £5 charge was introduced. A study by the AA indicates that the initial 3mph improvement in average traffic speeds within the zone had reduced to 2mph by the end of the year.
A survey by the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors found that 90 per cent of central London retailers and 75 per cent of leisure businesses - such as theatres and restaurants - believed the charge had reduced custom. The institute, which supports the toll, also suggested that its introduction had led to a fall in commercial rents.
Delivery firms, which were supposed to benefit particularly from the reduction in congestion, gave the scheme an overwhelming thumbs-down. Nearly 70 per cent said their journeys were no faster than 12 months ago.
Three quarters of appeals against the charge have been won by drivers. Despite TfL's efforts to reduce errors and trace non-payers, more than 20% of the fines issued have been ignored.
However, the mayor's office said that cars have kept off the busiest roads in central London since the charge was introduced in February, and traffic levels have fallen by around 40% [I wonder what basis they're using for their measurements - S].
This means that because of a lack of drivers paying £5 each day, TfL's budget for the scheme will be £65 million short by the end of the financial year, according to the latest estimates. During a meeting of the Greater London Assembly's budget committee, Mr Livingstone and TfL bosses acknowledged that the net income generated by the charge would be just half the £130 million originally planned.
LibDem Sally Hamwee, who chairs both the budget committee and the Assembly, said, "This is a substantial shortfall and I am quite alarmed," she said. "The things that get cut in these situations are things that are less high profile, like road safety, provision for pedestrians and cyclists." ["Safety" and "less high profile" in the same sentence? Hey, Mary from BRAKE, here's one you haven't converted ... - S]
--
So the scheme isn't working to reduce congestion (measured by journey time) and isn't raking in the money promised by Ken.
--
Mind you, the Grauniad has a very different take on it:
"London's £5-a-day congestion charge will celebrate its first birthday tomorrow with a qualified thumbs-up from the capital's businesses, which overwhelmingly back the scheme but want improvements to its administration.
A study by the business lobbying firm London First will reveal that 72% of companies believe the road charging experiment is working, with 14% convinced it is a failure."
--
You pays your money (or not) and takes your choice.
Streaky
>>> Edited by streaky on Monday 16th February 11:59
say old Ken bot hate cars does he not so who believes he want to get traffic in london flowing again?
nonegreen said:
Of course the kengestion charge is working!! I REFUSE to enter London and have to pay for it..... hopefully some of the larger companies there will take commie scum ken to task about this........ I hope and pray that that newt-loving jackass gets his comeupance at the next election.... Don't they execute old mayors to save on the pension fund??? If not they damned well should!!!
You don't like him much do you?
Plotloss. Why do Kensington and Chelsea want to be included in the zone? Are they stupid?
I'd say it's so they can benefit from (supposed) reduced traffic, plus when they do want to go into the zone, their kengestion charge is reduced from a fiver a day to £2.50 a week.
TFL and Ken are lying!!! the Kengestion charge for all of Lunnun inside the M25 is coming, the scumbag is already talking about it!!! and since when does a bureaucratic organisation like TFL/London council EVER tell the truth.....[/quote]
I'll take you're word for it.
I'm not a great fan of Ken myself. Glad I don't live in London. Who are the other candidates for the next mayoral election?? Do you reckon Red Ken will sneak in an extended Charge zone before his time is up, or do you reckon it will be put on the back burner until after the next election? Either way all you londoners know what to do.
I'll take you're word for it.
I'm not a great fan of Ken myself. Glad I don't live in London. Who are the other candidates for the next mayoral election?? Do you reckon Red Ken will sneak in an extended Charge zone before his time is up, or do you reckon it will be put on the back burner until after the next election? Either way all you londoners know what to do.
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