G20 Ian Tomlinson conclusion

G20 Ian Tomlinson conclusion

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FishFace

Original Poster:

3,790 posts

209 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
quotequote all
The initial message was deleted from this topic on 01 May 2011 at 23:18

FishFace

Original Poster:

3,790 posts

209 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
quotequote all
The initial message was deleted from this topic on 05 May 2011 at 17:16

Carnage

886 posts

233 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
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The second PM is the one I'm more interested in; Nat Carey has made a career out of PM's for the old PCA and the IPCC and interestingly, has never come to a verdict of natural causes after a death in custody/after police contact. I was present once at the Old Bailey when he was hammered for this. Funnily enough, the family have never disclosed the conclusions of their PM, either.

Rightly or wrongly, the CPS charging standard require injury to be "more than transient and trifling" for a charge of ABH. For example, a broken nose or even ribs are usually classed as common assault.

14-7

6,233 posts

192 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
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Carnage said:
For example, a broken nose or even ribs are usually classed as common assault.
Err, that would be ABH actually even by CPS charging standards.

streaky

19,311 posts

250 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
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I wonder whether the CPS felt there was no realistic chance of an acquittal, or to put it another way, how was the officer going to get a fair trial?

We need now to wait for whatever the inquest reveals and decides.

Streaky

BDZ

583 posts

177 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
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Can't say I'm surprised at this outcome. If there had been conclusive evidence that the officer had killed Tomlinson I think there would have been charges a lot sooner, the sheer amount of time it took shows how inconclusive the evidence was imho.

Carnage

886 posts

233 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
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14-7 said:
Carnage said:
For example, a broken nose or even ribs are usually classed as common assault.
Err, that would be ABH actually even by CPS charging standards.
Not in my experience, unless its displaced fracture common assault. Maybe you have more sensible CPS than us!

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

263 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
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BDZ said:
Can't say I'm surprised at this outcome. If there had been conclusive evidence that the officer had killed Tomlinson I think there would have been charges a lot sooner, the sheer amount of time it took shows how inconclusive the evidence was imho.
You're right. NO ONE is surprised at this outcome.

ExChrispy Porker

16,950 posts

229 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
quotequote all
Carnage said:
14-7 said:
Carnage said:
For example, a broken nose or even ribs are usually classed as common assault.
Err, that would be ABH actually even by CPS charging standards.
Not in my experience, unless its displaced fracture common assault. Maybe you have more sensible CPS than us!
CPS are notorious for ignoring their own charging standards when the suspect is a police officer though.

Derek Smith

45,780 posts

249 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
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ExChrispy Porker said:
Carnage said:
14-7 said:
Carnage said:
For example, a broken nose or even ribs are usually classed as common assault.
Err, that would be ABH actually even by CPS charging standards.
Not in my experience, unless its displaced fracture common assault. Maybe you have more sensible CPS than us!
CPS are notorious for ignoring their own charging standards when the suspect is a police officer though.
I can second that with three examples in my, somewhat limited, experience of officers being charged with offences. In one case, a close friend of mine, a judge advised the CPS to reconsider its decision to prosecute at a PTH. At the following PTH the judge expressed surprise that his suggestion had not been followed. He then advised the defence brief that the case had no chance of going to trial.

18 months later the trial collapsed the day it opened.

The CPS defended its decision to go ahead with the prosecution despite there being no likelihood of conviction (due to lack of evidence, that old problem that's often difficult to overcome) on the grounds of public interest.

Just to make it clear: the CPS decision has nothing to do with government and Home Office pressure. None whatsoever. As long as we have that clear.

The Chief Constable had lobbied the CPS regarding the charge when he found out they had not followed their own charging guidelines.

I've known them to fail to follow their charging guidelines when refusing to charge but it has only been with police officers as defendants that they have ignored them in pursuing a case. And in all cases the charges failed.

Edited by Derek Smith on Thursday 22 July 19:53

grumbledoak

31,559 posts

234 months

Scraggles

7,619 posts

225 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
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apparently as the other thread is a .co.uk, am not registered to reply....

why is anyone surprised at no charges, guy is alive before the policeman comes into contact and dead soon after....

rs1952

5,247 posts

260 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
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Derek Smith said:
Just to make it clear: the CPS decision has nothing to do with government and Home Office pressure. None whatsoever. As long as we have that clear.
I think we can make this as clear as we like, but it doesn't stop this event looking and smelling like a stitch-up/ cover up.

These things have unfortunately not been unheard of in British history. Bloody Sunday and Kelly enquiries for starters?

FishFace

Original Poster:

3,790 posts

209 months

Thursday 22nd July 2010
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Scraggles said:
apparently as the other thread is a .co.uk, am not registered to reply....

why is anyone surprised at no charges, guy is alive before the policeman comes into contact and dead soon after....
I expected a few replies similar to this. It seems of that people of experience always conclude that the CPS will ruthlessley charge police officers. Indeed, if the CPS's full threshold test is applied then the second public interest test appears to always be made out when it come to Cops regardless of the circumstances. Combine with the lowering of evidential standards (first test) then the idea or implication that the CPS won't charge because it's an officer is rubbish.

Scraggles

7,619 posts

225 months

Friday 23rd July 2010
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simply saw a film clip of some guy dressed in plod uniform, he was identified, the guy was alive before being manhandled / struck / beaten and then he died soon after

not a detective, but suspect that what happened in close proximity to the officer had a major effect on the guy's death

FishFace

Original Poster:

3,790 posts

209 months

Friday 23rd July 2010
quotequote all
Assuming it was unlawful - just because it looks it on the video doesn't make it so - the only realistic charge of common assault became statue barred after the 6 months and can't be taken to court. Whch appears to have been caused by the first pathologist.

saaby93

32,038 posts

179 months

Friday 23rd July 2010
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It was on the radio earlier.
The CPS has taken longer than 12 months to decide so I think it was said that an assualt charge times out after 6 months so is too late.
There's still possibility of ABH if they want, although it might hold up the inquest again.
They cant do the inquest first as the PC might be wary of what he says.

Wouldnt it be better to have an aircraft accident type investigation where everyone can be open about what they did wrong so as to try to prevent it happening again in the future?

mobi

1,612 posts

183 months

Friday 23rd July 2010
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I can't understand how this police officer has gotten away with this, when compared to PC Michael Bunting ( http://www.afaircop.co.uk/ ). The first Post Mortem was apparently carried out before the evidence of the assault was known, I wonder if this has subsequently influenced the following PM's (knowing what they were looking to prove)

Mojooo

12,770 posts

181 months

Friday 23rd July 2010
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mobi said:
I can't understand how this police officer has gotten away with this, when compared to PC Michael Bunting ( http://www.afaircop.co.uk/ ). The first Post Mortem was apparently carried out before the evidence of the assault was known, I wonder if this has subsequently influenced the following PM's (knowing what they were looking to prove)
I have said that in another thread (see the one on Dr Patel)

The CPS said that based on his evidence it will screw up any trial, but if his evidence is written off as unreliable it might open the door again...

mobi

1,612 posts

183 months

Friday 23rd July 2010
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Makes it look like I just requoted what you previously wrote but I didn't! Wonder how many other people hold that view?

I can only imagine/ hope that when the police do their own review of what happened that he will no longer be a police officer.