If scameras dissappeared....
Discussion
rospa said:
We certainly do need to build up the traffic police again. But there are no safety benefits from cameras and we DO NOT need to build up traffic police strength first.
The cameras most certainly do not cause an improvement in driver behaviour that would be lost if the cameras were removed.
If speed cameras were removed without building up TrafPol it would become a free for all.
Do you honestly believe that the cameras make people behave better? I don't.
I do consider it's a bit of a free for all at the moment - not enough trafpol - but I don't believe that the cameras do anything beneficial to control the situation. Quite the opposite in fact.
What, exactly, do you think the cameras do to save us from a "free for all"?
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
I'm sorry, I am just not convinced that wholescale removal of speed cameras without putting in place the requisite TrafPols, is a sensible way forward.
We have scathingly attacked the speed camera partnerhips for their approach and the drop in TrafPol numbers. How can we now say that we don't actually believe that TrafPols are, in fact, an essential part in the fight for proper road safety.
Either way, I don't think it matters much. Since when have the authorities worried about the facts or evidence. All they care about is perception. And scrapping cameras without putting more TrafPol back on the roads is, in my view, going to go down very badly with the general public.
We've used the available figures to show speed cameras up, trafpol numbers down, non-speeding Trafpol convictions at an all time low. We cannot now conveniently ignore these factors. That would be tantamount to adopting the same tactics that the scamera parternships have used. Namely, spin, lies and outright deceit.
We have scathingly attacked the speed camera partnerhips for their approach and the drop in TrafPol numbers. How can we now say that we don't actually believe that TrafPols are, in fact, an essential part in the fight for proper road safety.
Either way, I don't think it matters much. Since when have the authorities worried about the facts or evidence. All they care about is perception. And scrapping cameras without putting more TrafPol back on the roads is, in my view, going to go down very badly with the general public.
We've used the available figures to show speed cameras up, trafpol numbers down, non-speeding Trafpol convictions at an all time low. We cannot now conveniently ignore these factors. That would be tantamount to adopting the same tactics that the scamera parternships have used. Namely, spin, lies and outright deceit.
nonegreen said:
The cameras serve no road related purpose really, they are there to collect cash to support parasite civil servants who should be put to work building roads.
The removal of all speed cameras would cause practically no change in my driving behaviour.
I might relax slightly more - although I would not change my (hopefully very high) level of concentration.
We HAVE a free for all at the moment! If there isn't a camera nearby you can drive like a total arse and your chances of being pulled are slim. Witness the boom in untaxed/uninsured/disqualified drivers on the road.
I firmly believe that the proliferation of cameras is reducing driving standards - we are constantly having it drummed into us that cameras are only at blackspots, the result being an overcompensation as more and more people fall into the trap of thinking no cameras = no blackspot = this road isn't dangerous....
There is also the issue of traffic avoiding roads with cameras and finding alternative routes (the path of least resistance). Not only can this lead to the much heralded drop in KSI collisions at camera sites, it puts more traffic on less suitable roads. Recipe for disaster...
I firmly believe that the proliferation of cameras is reducing driving standards - we are constantly having it drummed into us that cameras are only at blackspots, the result being an overcompensation as more and more people fall into the trap of thinking no cameras = no blackspot = this road isn't dangerous....
There is also the issue of traffic avoiding roads with cameras and finding alternative routes (the path of least resistance). Not only can this lead to the much heralded drop in KSI collisions at camera sites, it puts more traffic on less suitable roads. Recipe for disaster...
safespeed said:
We certainly do need to build up the traffic police again. But there are no safety benefits from cameras and we DO NOT need to build up traffic police strength first.
The cameras most certainly do not cause an improvement in driver behaviour that would be lost if the cameras were removed.
If speed cameras were removed without building up TrafPol it would become a free for all.
Do you honestly believe that the cameras make people behave better? I don't.
I do consider it's a bit of a free for all at the moment - not enough trafpol - but I don't believe that the cameras do anything beneficial to control the situation. Quite the opposite in fact.
What, exactly, do you think the cameras do to save us from a "free for all"?
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
How long would it take to build up TrafPol sections if there was a mind to do it? 3 months? 12 months? - I sincerely hope that you are suing your influence to ensure that we do not simply return to the past. I do support more TrafPol and I do support better driving standards and I do support the principal of advanced driving.
I may be wrong (frequently am) but a wise man once told me to only fight the battles you know you can win. If you are hoping for cameras to be scrapped overnight, I think you'll be disappointed. If, however, you are hoping for cameras to be "phased out" as part of a "targetted package of measures" I think that is more likely to happen. To have positive input into that, you will need to demonstrate that you do not want a "free for all" but you want trained expert TrafPol out there on patrol, exercising discretion, giving cautions/FPN's and reporting for summons as necessary. Under the same "pacakage", you need to be ready to provide guidance on the DSA, RoSPA/IAM, etc..
It is not as simple as simply campaigning for the scrapping of cameras.
Rospa,
I do not believe you are reading what I am writing. Care to try again?
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
I do not believe you are reading what I am writing. Care to try again?
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
safespeed said:
Rospa,
I do not believe you are reading what I am writing. Care to try again?
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
I think I am. I just don't think scrapping cameras on their own is a credible step. They may be good reasons for it but you have to give the government a way out of this. Expecting them to admit they are wrong, and force them into a humiliating climbdown is, in my opinion, just not going to happen.
Do you think the Government are likley to unban handguns anytime soon? Of course not, despite what the evidence shows about the number of illegally held guns being used in violent crime.
So instead of just asking for cameras to be scrapped we should all be working together to come up with a package of reform that will get us where we want to be.
I'm happy to go on with this discussion but I am afraid you have not convinced me that solely removing cameras is a workable solution. Given that I am here and not the average numptie, nor one of the rabid anti-car brigade, must count for something.
If you haven't convinced me, what hope do you have for an anti-car loon.
I do think that there are people on this board who do want to drive in any way they wish. For those people, TrafPol *are* a problem.
I want to see practical measures as part of a coherent strategy not just isolated gimmicks.
Do we want less speed cameras? Yes
Do we want more TrafPol? Yes
Can we do both? Yes
Rospa Liebchen
Similar thread running on his own site - posted by the Speed Limit chap and ABDer who lives in Manchester area.
As said - relatives who are BiBs (only one was trafpol - and has since moved upwards and onwards)
Anyway - he has aired comments already that proliferation of scams has led to demise of cops, and in answer to Speed Limit's question as to "what would we do after the scam" - his reply was - same as they did before - lurk in side streets etc. He also questioned (as wind up
)what difference is between talivan traitor lurking in sinister fashion when he used to do it himself - but, after all a BiB and he is, by his own admission, a bit a of a 
But cousin BiB does take point that talivan twit is just that!
And he does agree that they do target wrong area and wrong people. He also has concerns that talivan twit is only after a speeder - marginal and OTT - and does not get the really dangerous numpty!
He has already said same as you - that we need to build up the trafpols and return to epitome of excellence they once were!
But think point Paul safespeed is trying to make is that because we place too much emphasis on a speed camera, on speed and on speedos, driving standards - even amongst the best of us - and you are of the elite since you have rospa - are beginning to decline. Sure we need more trafpols out there, and we need better driver training. And we all know it cannot be done overnight! And we all know the scams will not be removed overnight either.
Perhaps initial steps is as Met was reported to do - replace the dodgy scams with the nice friendly Smiley Sids with nice flashing neon lights, supported by PC Gatso and chum at the really dangerous spots, whilst we set about getting nice polite trafpols back in reasonable shape.
Similar thread running on his own site - posted by the Speed Limit chap and ABDer who lives in Manchester area.
As said - relatives who are BiBs (only one was trafpol - and has since moved upwards and onwards)
Anyway - he has aired comments already that proliferation of scams has led to demise of cops, and in answer to Speed Limit's question as to "what would we do after the scam" - his reply was - same as they did before - lurk in side streets etc. He also questioned (as wind up
)what difference is between talivan traitor lurking in sinister fashion when he used to do it himself - but, after all a BiB and he is, by his own admission, a bit a of a But cousin BiB does take point that talivan twit is just that! And he does agree that they do target wrong area and wrong people. He also has concerns that talivan twit is only after a speeder - marginal and OTT - and does not get the really dangerous numpty!
He has already said same as you - that we need to build up the trafpols and return to epitome of excellence they once were!
But think point Paul safespeed is trying to make is that because we place too much emphasis on a speed camera, on speed and on speedos, driving standards - even amongst the best of us - and you are of the elite since you have rospa - are beginning to decline. Sure we need more trafpols out there, and we need better driver training. And we all know it cannot be done overnight! And we all know the scams will not be removed overnight either.
Perhaps initial steps is as Met was reported to do - replace the dodgy scams with the nice friendly Smiley Sids with nice flashing neon lights, supported by PC Gatso and chum at the really dangerous spots, whilst we set about getting nice polite trafpols back in reasonable shape.
rospa said:
[quote=safespeed]
I do not believe you are reading what I am writing. Care to try again?
I think I am. I just don't think scrapping cameras on their own is a credible step.
[...]
Do we want less speed cameras? Yes
Do we want more TrafPol? Yes
Can we do both? Yes
We're agreeing about these three points.
I don't agree that scrapping cameras in any sense depends on increasing traffic police patrols.
My objectives certainly are not limited to scrapping cameras. I've organised a conference on driver training for 28th April, and my unpublished draft road safety proposals document - currently standing at 55 pages - has considerably less than 1 page about speed cameras.
However, I do believe that the single most important single thing we could do to improve road safety immediately is to scrap the cameras.
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
margo said:
Can we make that... "When cameras disappear"?
Because they can not, must not and will not survive.
Of course they both can and will survive. They're every politician's dream, a self enforcing, self funding, criminal justice device.
They are also every politician's nightmare, a sure fire vote loser. In this case the nightmare wins. Mark my words.
safespeed said:
They are also every politician's nightmare, a sure fire vote loser. In this case the nightmare wins. Mark my words.
I'd love to believe that, but I see nothing to support it. A move to have them seen as more 'fair' might be a possibility, but their total removal ? I can't imagine it, there's too much time, effort, money and ideological capital invested in their existence.
margo said:
They are also every politician's nightmare, a sure fire vote loser. In this case the nightmare wins. Mark my words.
I'd love to believe that, but I see nothing to support it. A move to have them seen as more 'fair' might be a possibility, but their total removal ? I can't imagine it, there's too much time, effort, money and ideological capital invested in their existence.
And now they are wasting money on advertisements (bloke with promotional T-shirt procaliming that Scameras save lives - and PC Gatso "bragging" about how wonderful he is!
Must be a little worried if they are resorting to this
Money should be better spent - like on real, practical safety campaigns.
ANd we need better trained people (not prats) promoting good driving practice, addressing the real issues of driving standards - and not just focusing on one aspect of driving only! (You know - folk who can really drive and understand cars!
) Ideologies, values. cultures and politicians change. We need to get the right ones in next time!
And I do not mean those who just say "raise speed limits!" either! WildCat said:
Money should be better spent - like on real, practical safety campaigns.
Absolutely
But they're not self funding 
WildCat said:
Ideologies, values. cultures and politicians change. We need to get the right ones in next time!
But who would they be ? We've had some non-commital guff from the opposition, but where is the party proposing serious work on a sensible road safety policy ?
To reiterate, I'm not trying to wind Paul up and I certainly broadly support what he's trying to do (which I'm sure is a great comfort
), I'm just not sure that holding onto a belief that cameras will ever be removed, rather than (at best) the rules being tweaked to make them a little 'fairer' seems like pie in the sky rospa said:
If speed cameras were removed without building up TrafPol it would become a free for all.
And your problem is exactly ?
My journey to work is 43 miles each way, and there are no speed cameras or police presence in either direction.
There is no free for all. Everything runs very smoothly, and very rarely do I ever see any accidents. ( Maybe one or 2 a year)
Some people drive fast to make progress including myself, but it doesn't hurt anyone else, so what's your problem?
>> Edited by ledfoot on Tuesday 6th April 19:38
ledfoot said:
If speed cameras were removed without building up TrafPol it would become a free for all.
And your problem is exactly ?
My journey to work is 43 miles each way, and there are no speed cameras or police presence in either direction.
There is no free for all. Everything runs very smoothly, and very rarely do I ever see any accidents. ( Maybe one or 2 a year)
Some people drive fast to make progress including myself, but it doesn't hurt anyone else, so what's your problem?
>> Edited by ledfoot on Tuesday 6th April 19:38
My 'problem' using your term is that we have argued that speed cameras are causing other offences to go unpunished because TrafPols have been replaced by speed cameras. Now we want speed cameras removed but do not see it is a priority to get TrafPol numbers back up.
This is not an arguement about right or wrong or fact or fiction. It is about whether in the current political climate, the powers that be will suddenly scrap speed cameras. I don't think that they will. Your views may differ.
margo said:
But who would they be ? We've had some non-commital guff from the opposition, but where is the party proposing serious work on a sensible road safety policy ?
Indeed. I'm amazed that the Tory Party aren't crawling all over this issue and other important issues that the country faces today.
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