Speed limit on dual carriageway (single lane)
Discussion
F i F said:
tvrgit said:
streaky said:
That's because "ignoramus" was a Latin verb - meaning "we do not know" - not a noun. The plural is formed, therefore, in the English manner, by adding 'es'.
Streaky
You learn something new every day. I read on a very authoritative expert website once that the plural of "ignoramus" was "internet", but I had my doubts, because even German doesn't have verbs as irregular as that.Streaky
Miserable times with a drunken grumpy bully of a Latin master who taught mostly by fear.
'Notorious' - from Medieval Latin notorius : well-known.
'Paucity' - from Latin paucitas : few.
'Absence' - from Latin absentia : a being away.
'Miserable' - from Latin miserbilis : pitiable.
'Master' - from Latin magister.
Streaky
Efbe said:
if anyone knows of any roads of a decent length split by solid white lines with hatchings in the middle, we may be able to look on the local gvmt website to see what they classify it as.
Now you are just being argumentative.In the past we, including myself, have spoken directly with Dept for Transport and the Roads Policy Unit about this regarding the various interpretations. These are the people who will advise the courts if required on interpretation by supply of expert witness.
They have confirmed that when you have a road where the traffic proceeding in one direction is separated from opposing traffic only by painted lines, and painted hatchings, possibly also with different coloured paint area markings, then such a road is to be considered a single carriageway road.
Full stop, rule off.
You have also been pointed out on this thread and in various links at the legislation such as it is, and also in those links where the legislation is less than clear. For example there is no legal distinction between a traffic island and a central reservation. You have also been pointed to various clear and accurate interpretations of the situation, including some of mine.
Yes there are clear design rules for new roads and new constructions but these are guidelines and not legal requirements as many roads were built to earlier revisions of DMRB and even before that document existed.
People on this thread have been very patient with you, but you seem intent on an argument because there is nothing spelled out in law, with drawings, pictures, dimensions, t's crossed and i's dotted. Well that is how the law is. Deal with it.
I don't know what you are getting off on by persisting in this line, but frankly you are just making yourself look silly.
rs1952 said:
To all those doubters on this thread, can I make a suggestion that might clear things up for you?
1. Find a camera van that is parked up on an NSL with a painted hatched central area between the two running lanes.
2. Do 70 past the camera van
3. See what comes in the post
What if it's a proper dual carriageway, and I'm doing 70mph in one of those new Transit 4x4 jobbies ?1. Find a camera van that is parked up on an NSL with a painted hatched central area between the two running lanes.
2. Do 70 past the camera van
3. See what comes in the post
Efbe said:
if anyone knows of any roads of a decent length split by solid white lines with hatchings in the middle, we may be able to look on the local gvmt website to see what they classify it as.
I don't give a stuff what the local govt web site classifies it as. If I had a pound for every time a local govt office has been wrong.... no wait - I do!!If local govt was infallible, I'd have had no career for the last 20 years!
Edited by tvrgit on Thursday 11th November 10:19
Right here are some of the Google street links I saved in preparation for the thread to be linked from the FAQ wiki.
To illustrate some of the issues, It is on the A451 Kidderminster to Stourport road.
Please note for the hard of thinking. We are discussing permitted limit, NOT the appropriate speed to drive down this stretch.
Single carriageway 30 limit
Still SC, about to enter 40 limit, central hatchings surrounded by dashed lines
Still SC, about to enter NSL 60
Note to the right there is another road across the grass behind the butty van, this is a SC 30.
Traffic islands ped refuges at TLJ, still SC NSL 60
The central hatching is back but still dotted surround.
Start of traffic islands do separate right turning lane
Now this is clearly a permanent construction to separate traffic proceeding in one direction from another. However is it a central reserve?
My interpretation: This is still to be considered a traffic island, wouldn't get any joy from me if argued as a central reserve, but it would need to be argued out in court if so determined.
Arrangement of islands at TLJ
Does the NSL DC start here?
Or here?
Where imho it clearly is now an NSL DC 70mph for cars.
Just for the Doubting Thomases
For those who say as there is no crash barrier or blue dual carriageway ahead signs the road is not a bona fide DC please see the sign on access from a side road. There are others on both sides of the DC.
To illustrate some of the issues, It is on the A451 Kidderminster to Stourport road.
Please note for the hard of thinking. We are discussing permitted limit, NOT the appropriate speed to drive down this stretch.
Single carriageway 30 limit
Still SC, about to enter 40 limit, central hatchings surrounded by dashed lines
Still SC, about to enter NSL 60
Note to the right there is another road across the grass behind the butty van, this is a SC 30.
Traffic islands ped refuges at TLJ, still SC NSL 60
The central hatching is back but still dotted surround.
Start of traffic islands do separate right turning lane
Now this is clearly a permanent construction to separate traffic proceeding in one direction from another. However is it a central reserve?
My interpretation: This is still to be considered a traffic island, wouldn't get any joy from me if argued as a central reserve, but it would need to be argued out in court if so determined.
Arrangement of islands at TLJ
Does the NSL DC start here?
Or here?
Where imho it clearly is now an NSL DC 70mph for cars.
Just for the Doubting Thomases
For those who say as there is no crash barrier or blue dual carriageway ahead signs the road is not a bona fide DC please see the sign on access from a side road. There are others on both sides of the DC.
F i F said:
I would say, 'Yes, it starts here'.F i F said:
Or here?
Where imho it clearly is now an NSL DC 70mph for cars.
Surely no more clearly than at the traffic lights. AFAICS, the road is NSL through the lights.Where imho it clearly is now an NSL DC 70mph for cars.
Streaky
F i F said:
That's a physical barrier! With apologies to Crocodile Dundee (deliberately misquoted).Streaky
FIF, you're a bit over the top there.
but ok, thats my appetite satisfied. I understand exactly what you are all trying to say, even if there are a few 'i talked to them and they told me so' quotes that dont really help.
howeverI can also see that you would have a bit of an arguement in court if you did get done due to this, though you would be pushing your luck
but ok, thats my appetite satisfied. I understand exactly what you are all trying to say, even if there are a few 'i talked to them and they told me so' quotes that dont really help.
howeverI can also see that you would have a bit of an arguement in court if you did get done due to this, though you would be pushing your luck
streaky said:
F i F said:
That's a physical barrier! With apologies to Crocodile Dundee (deliberately misquoted).Streaky
From the other side of the DC
Does that qualify for a Gotcha!!
saaby93 said:
AL...Ease said:
You can't have a single-carriageway motorway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A38(M)I thought there were some more in or on the way to Scotland?
What the hell's the point in that?I thought one of the requirements of a motorway was that it was a dual-carriageway (as well as only having junctions on sliproads, no traffic lights and a hard shoulder). :s
You can spend a long time defining a motorway - the reality is, there will always be exceptions to the general rules (such as being dual carriageway, having hard shoulders, whatever) but what defines a road as motorway is statute; it is designated a Special Road.
The A6144(M) was a motorway until 2006. Single carriageway, no hard shoulder, and an NSL of 70mph: http://pathetic.org.uk/former/a6144m/ - if you're really interested, the A601(M) is still a motorway, is single carriageway, and is also on that site, under 'Current'.
As for one-way streets, they aren't dual carriageways (well, unless you can find one which is...), so NSL would be 60.
The A6144(M) was a motorway until 2006. Single carriageway, no hard shoulder, and an NSL of 70mph: http://pathetic.org.uk/former/a6144m/ - if you're really interested, the A601(M) is still a motorway, is single carriageway, and is also on that site, under 'Current'.
As for one-way streets, they aren't dual carriageways (well, unless you can find one which is...
), so NSL would be 60.streaky said:
andyroo said:
I can confirm that a dual carriageway is not constituted by the number of lanes but by the presence of a physical barrier (be it kerbing, armco etc) and is 70mph when delineated as NSL. The absence of head on collisions and their combined impact speed allows for the greater limit.
The 'physical barrier' can be a strip of grass. Such does not prevent head-on collisions.Can those who are talking about a physical 'barrier' please stop? It's confusing those who don't know, or understand, the definition.
A "central reservation" is not defined in terms of Armco, hedging, earth mounds, WRSB, or anything else designed or naturally helping to prevent the unintended transgression of a vehicle from one carriageway to the opposing carriageway.
Streaky
4.6.1
Central reserves provide physical separation between carriageways thereby providing freedom from interference from opposing traffic; particularly where space is allowed for the construction of a VRS, if appropriate.
andyroo said:
streaky said:
andyroo said:
I can confirm that a dual carriageway is not constituted by the number of lanes but by the presence of a physical barrier (be it kerbing, armco etc) and is 70mph when delineated as NSL. The absence of head on collisions and their combined impact speed allows for the greater limit.
The 'physical barrier' can be a strip of grass. Such does not prevent head-on collisions.Can those who are talking about a physical 'barrier' please stop? It's confusing those who don't know, or understand, the definition.
A "central reservation" is not defined in terms of Armco, hedging, earth mounds, WRSB, or anything else designed or naturally helping to prevent the unintended transgression of a vehicle from one carriageway to the opposing carriageway.
Streaky
4.6.1
Central reserves provide physical separation between carriageways thereby providing freedom from interference from opposing traffic; particularly where space is allowed for the construction of a VRS, if appropriate.
andyroo said:
You said it wasn't a physical restriction - I showed you the design guide that shows it is.
I might add that this is my job
Don't think anybody is arguing with you. Streaky's point as I understand it is that you DON'T need a fence etc as a physical restriction to prevent you driving over it - it's the physical separation (by distance) that matters in defining a dual carriageway.I might add that this is my job
And yes, it's my job too...
tvrgit said:
andyroo said:
You said it wasn't a physical restriction - I showed you the design guide that shows it is.
I might add that this is my job
Don't think anybody is arguing with you. Streaky's point as I understand it is that you DON'T need a fence etc as a physical restriction to prevent you driving over it - it's the physical separation (by distance) that matters in defining a dual carriageway.I might add that this is my job
And yes, it's my job too...
as long as it wasn't your job to design this piece of motorway!!
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