Speed limit on dual carriageway (single lane)

[dmjw01]

theboss said:

Whilst traversing this road once I had a police offer tell me very insistently that I was wrong, and that a 60mph limit applies on any section of single-lane carriageway. I wasn't pulled over - the plod happened to be a family member sat in the front seat of my car.

I suggest you tell your plod family member to have a chat with some of his/her colleagues - preferably ones who are police advanced drivers. There's no way you'll persuade them yourself, because being a copper your relative probably believes they're immune from being wrong on this subject - but any "proper" police driver will confirm what several people are saying on this thread, namely that "dual carriageway" means exactly what it says on the tin: two physically separated carriageways. The number of lanes on each carriageway is totally irrelevant.

The reason for this confusion is simply that single-lane dual carriageways are so rare, so people automatically assume that dual carriageways always have multiple lanes going in each direction. From that misconception, it's a short step to believing (erroneously) that having multiple lanes is a defining characteristic of a dual carriageway, which it isn't.

[F i F]

This stretch is local to my UK house, and when there I drive up and down that stretch at least twice a day, sometimes more.

It is 70 in both directions except for, as Nigel and others say, the sections to the north limited to 50 and 40. In this staement I'm ignoring the current 40 mph contraflow by Ombersley for the bridge work.

The OP relative who is a PC needs some education, it IS 70, I regularly go through the static cams at 69.999999 mph and never a ticket. Even been down that bit of road with one of West Mercia's finest in an unmarked following too close.

I can concur with one of the posters that I get frustrated with the numpties who drive through the 50 at 40, plus then the numpties who won't overtake. Once the queue has reached more than 4 or 5 vehicles one can find there isn't a long enough stretch of two lane DC before the next single lane DC to make a safe and legal overtake.

Also I get fed up of the numpties who fly by in the 40s and 50s, then get to the NSL and sit at 60, then get to the static cameras and jam on the anchors. These people really do have car in gear, brain in neutral.

[STW2010]

tvrgit said:

STW2010 said:

streaky said:

STW2010 said:

If it is a single lane heading in one direction then it is a 60 mph limit. As far as I'm aware it is only 70 mph where there is at least two lanes going in the same direction

Rubbish! How many times do we have to explain this?

Mods - could we have a 'sticky' covering this ... please?

Streaky

I apologise for not having the same superior knowledge of you. If you don't like explaining things, then don't open the thread? Potentially outrageous idea, and one that might seem unbelievably novel, but there you go.

Another idea, even more unbelievably novel, is that people who don't know what they are talking about might avoid trying to sound as if they do.

Even more unlikely to catch on though, so can we call it a draw?

By saying 'as far as I'm aware' I thought it would be clear that I didn't see myself as being 100% sure. I was merely stating what I thought was the case. Is that ok with you?

[STW2010]

F i F said:

The OP relative who is a PC needs some education, it IS 70

And this highlights the confusion that people have. I wasn't aware that this was the case, so this has been a lesson for me

[anonymous-user]

STW2010 said:

tvrgit said:

STW2010 said:

streaky said:

STW2010 said:

If it is a single lane heading in one direction then it is a 60 mph limit. As far as I'm aware it is only 70 mph where there is at least two lanes going in the same direction

Rubbish! How many times do we have to explain this?

Mods - could we have a 'sticky' covering this ... please?

Streaky

I apologise for not having the same superior knowledge of you. If you don't like explaining things, then don't open the thread? Potentially outrageous idea, and one that might seem unbelievably novel, but there you go.

Another idea, even more unbelievably novel, is that people who don't know what they are talking about might avoid trying to sound as if they do.

Even more unlikely to catch on though, so can we call it a draw?

By saying 'as far as I'm aware' I thought it would be clear that I didn't see myself as being 100% sure. I was merely stating what I thought was the case. Is that ok with you?

In that case you may as well say "as far as I am unaware" or "here's my best guess"

[STW2010]

garyhun said:

In that case you may as well say "as far as I am unaware" or "here's my best guess"

Agreed. But it is fact of a forum that every statement made shouldn't be taken as gospel. If someone asks me a question, then I'll answer it- if it's wrong, then sorry

[tvrgit]

STW2010 said:

tvrgit said:

STW2010 said:

streaky said:

STW2010 said:

If it is a single lane heading in one direction then it is a 60 mph limit. As far as I'm aware it is only 70 mph where there is at least two lanes going in the same direction

Rubbish! How many times do we have to explain this?

Mods - could we have a 'sticky' covering this ... please?

Streaky

I apologise for not having the same superior knowledge of you. If you don't like explaining things, then don't open the thread? Potentially outrageous idea, and one that might seem unbelievably novel, but there you go.

Another idea, even more unbelievably novel, is that people who don't know what they are talking about might avoid trying to sound as if they do.

Even more unlikely to catch on though, so can we call it a draw?

By saying 'as far as I'm aware' I thought it would be clear that I didn't see myself as being 100% sure. I was merely stating what I thought was the case. Is that ok with you?

By saying "trying to sound as if they do" I thought it was clear that it was the impression I was talking about, not the exact wording. In any case, you can say whatever you like, just like many who spout utter ste as if it was gospel... Just don't get all touchy when somebody who DOES know, says something different.

[anonymous-user]

scrolled a bit and found this

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...

So I'd go for NSL applying and limit being 70 for a car

[F i F]

STW2010 said:

F i F said:

The OP relative who is a PC needs some education, it IS 70

And this highlights the confusion that people have. I wasn't aware that this was the case, so this has been a lesson for me

One of the RoSPA crowd got pulled over on a SC NSL by a solitary footpatrol plod who gave him a bking for, in his opinion, exceeding the National Speed Limit for cars of 50 mph. WTF he was doing on foot patrol on a quiet NSL is beyond me, but I digress.

There is no hope frankly, if some plod, please note the emphasis, if some plod can get it so wrong why should we be surprised at civilians who have not a clue.

OK I can accept that not every officer, in fact I'd argue that no single officer, has an all encompassing and up to date position on every facet of law. Even in traffic you'll find some that are more au fait with C&U regs, others on tacho rules and so on.

But if you don't know the most basic bits of the law that even joe public is supposed to know off by heart then just STFU and wind your neck back in.

that isn't meant as anti-plod as it comes across to be honest and I apologise for that as I'm sure it's isolated individuals in truth.

/rant

[bigdods]

Red Devil said:

No restriction signs anywhere on the section pictured so - as others have pointed out - NSL. Your family member is giving you incorrect information which, given they are in 'the job', is not only astonishing but disturbing.

Disturbing ? really ? So it just shows that plod are fallible just like the rest of us. This family member may not even have been traffic plod so probably just as in the dark as everyone else.

FWIW a few years back I was pulled for doing 90 on an NSL DC at 6am. Fair cop I thought , 20 over that'll be 3 points and a small fine. Until plod advised me that A41(M) with its blue signs, fully barriered seperator and hard shoulder was 60 'just like all dual carriageways'. So he thought I was going 30 over not 20 ! He told me I was lucky that he was letting me off with 3 points and fixed penalty but that I should go and learn the correct speed limits for roads

Edited by bigdods on Wednesday 10th November 13:13

[STW2010]

tvrgit said:

By saying "trying to sound as if they do" I thought it was clear that it was the impression I was talking about, not the exact wording. In any case, you can say whatever you like, just like many who spout utter ste as if it was gospel... Just don't get all touchy when somebody who DOES know, says something different.

I haven't got a problem with being proved wrong. In fact, in this case I'm pleasantly suprised that I was wrong and I have now learned something.

But what I don't like is getting a condenscending reply such as 'rubbish! how many times do we have to explain this'. It hasn't been explained to me before- if it had been then such a response would have been deserved.

Edited by STW2010 on Wednesday 10th November 14:24

[SS2.]

STW2010 said:

It hasn't been explained to me before- if it had been then such a response would have been deserved.

Stick around and you'll see it comes up several times a month, along with other favourites such as a lack of MOT automatically invalidates insurance, un-MOT'd vehicles can only be driven to the nearest test station, an expired photo-card means you have no driving licence, etc etc..

[tvrgit]

SS2. said:

STW2010 said:

It hasn't been explained to me before- if it had been then such a response would have been deserved.

Stick around and you'll see it comes up several times a month, along with other favourites such as a lack of MOT automatically invalidates insurance, un-MOT'd vehicles can only be driven to the nearest test station, an expired photo-card means you have no driving licence, etc etc..

I have an idea...
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...

Be gentle because I don't have them often.

Edited by tvrgit on Wednesday 10th November 14:48

[STW2010]

I think that a wiki-type site would be a good idea. But whether people would use it is another thing- the answer to the dual carriageway thing is out there somewhere, but the OP didn't know it, and I certainly didn't look for it.

[tvrgit]

STW2010 said:

I think that a wiki-type site would be a good idea. But whether people would use it is another thing- the answer to the dual carriageway thing is out there somewhere, but the OP didn't know it, and I certainly didn't look for it.

I'm not having a go at you or anybody else in particular, I appreciate the difficulty, and I am just suggesting that maybe we can give people somewhere to look for that kind of stuff!

[F i F]

tvrgit said:

STW2010 said:

I think that a wiki-type site would be a good idea. But whether people would use it is another thing- the answer to the dual carriageway thing is out there somewhere, but the OP didn't know it, and I certainly didn't look for it.

I'm not having a go at you or anybody else in particular, I appreciate the difficulty, and I am just suggesting that maybe we can give people somewhere to look for that kind of stuff!

OK I'm at a loose end this evening so I'll make a start on a wiki.

If the mods see fit to sticky it so much the better.

I propose that in the meantime the above linked thread by tvrgit should be taken / modified into a list of needed FAQs.

I can sympathise with streakers because the stickying of various dual cabbageway or not threads has been requested numerous times.

[tvrgit]

F i F said:

tvrgit said:

STW2010 said:

I think that a wiki-type site would be a good idea. But whether people would use it is another thing- the answer to the dual carriageway thing is out there somewhere, but the OP didn't know it, and I certainly didn't look for it.

I'm not having a go at you or anybody else in particular, I appreciate the difficulty, and I am just suggesting that maybe we can give people somewhere to look for that kind of stuff!

OK I'm at a loose end this evening so I'll make a start on a wiki.

If the mods see fit to sticky it so much the better.

I propose that in the meantime the above linked thread by tvrgit should be taken / modified into a list of needed FAQs.

I can sympathise with streakers because the stickying of various dual cabbageway or not threads has been requested numerous times.

Good man FiF, thanks for your support (I shall wear it always) - I'll have a trawl and see what other items might be appropriate.

If it's not stickied, we'll just have to make sure everybody takes turns at updating it slightly but often!

[streaky]

tvrgit said:

F i F said:

tvrgit said:

STW2010 said:

I think that a wiki-type site would be a good idea. But whether people would use it is another thing- the answer to the dual carriageway thing is out there somewhere, but the OP didn't know it, and I certainly didn't look for it.

I'm not having a go at you or anybody else in particular, I appreciate the difficulty, and I am just suggesting that maybe we can give people somewhere to look for that kind of stuff!

OK I'm at a loose end this evening so I'll make a start on a wiki.

If the mods see fit to sticky it so much the better.

I propose that in the meantime the above linked thread by tvrgit should be taken / modified into a list of needed FAQs.

I can sympathise with streakers because the stickying of various dual cabbageway or not threads has been requested numerous times.

Good man FiF, thanks for your support (I shall wear it always) - I'll have a trawl and see what other items might be appropriate.

If it's not stickied, we'll just have to make sure everybody takes turns at updating it slightly but often!

That's 'duel cabbageway', remember - Streaky

Edited by streaky on Thursday 11th November 09:15

[rs1952]

SS2. said:

STW2010 said:

It hasn't been explained to me before- if it had been then such a response would have been deserved.

Stick around and you'll see it comes up several times a month, along with other favourites such as a lack of MOT automatically invalidates insurance, un-MOT'd vehicles can only be driven to the nearest test station, an expired photo-card means you have no driving licence, etc etc..

You missed "its illegal to tow on a motorway"

[Red Devil]

bigdods said:

Red Devil said:

No restriction signs anywhere on the section pictured so - as others have pointed out - NSL. Your family member is giving you incorrect information which, given they are in 'the job', is not only astonishing but disturbing.

Disturbing ? really ? So it just shows that plod are fallible just like the rest of us. This family member may not even have been traffic plod so probably just as in the dark as everyone else.

Yes, really!

Fallibility is a poor excuse: its a lack of knowledge, presumably due to poor training/education. I am not so naive as to believe that any individual officer can have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the law. However, given that driving is an activity that tens of millions do on a daily basis, I don't think it is too much to ask that all BiB can get something that basic correct.

Giving out flawed advice is bad enough but when it comes to dishing out a CoFP or providing evidence for a prosecution which will have an adverse financial impact on the motorist I, and no doubt many others, are entitled to expect better from those whose job it is to deal with transgressors.

As I said previously I was taught the correct definition of a dual carriageway by my driving instructor. (single lane DCs are not new, there are just a lot more of them now). Knowing that, you can extrapolate the applicable NSL. It's not rocket science. That many motorists don't/can't is just as worrying as the BiB getting it wrong. What else are today's novice drivers not being properly taught?

Something else my instructor drummed into me. Being allowed to drive is a privilege not a right. Judging by what I see on a daily basis, this doesn't seem to be part of the teaching process nowadays. It's yet another symptom of the general dumbing down of standards. I am no paragon but I do understand that the privilege can be removed if I demonstrate that I no longer deserve it.

bigdods said:

FWIW a few years back I was pulled for doing 90 on an NSL DC at 6am. Fair cop I thought , 20 over that'll be 3 points and a small fine. Until plod advised me that A41(M) with its blue signs, fully barriered seperator and hard shoulder was 60 'just like all dual carriageways'. So he thought I was going 30 over not 20 ! He told me I was lucky that he was letting me off with 3 points and fixed penalty but that I should go and learn the correct speed limits for roads

Oh my - I think you just proved my point.
How would you have felt if you were doing 70, he was on a mission and decided to issue a CoFP due to his erroneous belief? It wouldn't have stood but you would be the one having to take time out to contest it.
Not good for PR when BiB need all the help they can get from MoPs.

Lucky for you the A41(M) isn't in Cambridgeshire.

"I love nicking people. Lock everybody up all day every day if I could."
"I'm not one for giving words of advice"
"The only way is to hit people in the pocket"
PC Leigh Fenton
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/coppers/4od#313...

Ever heard the phrase 'winning hearts and minds', young man? Punishment without education doesn't work.

Edited by Red Devil on Wednesday 10th November 17:19