Speed limit on dual carriageway (single lane)
Discussion
F i F said:
zebedee said:
Lotus Elise, not towing! I guess dual carriageway means each carriageway is split - its very easy to think it means dual because it has 2 lanes in each direction, so I can see that now. Where is the definitive legal language then? Good point on street view, will ask him to show me the bit of road in question.
:facepalm:F i F in october 2009 and many times before and since said:
Promised to come back and post the links.
Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
Quite a way down section IV Application and Interpretation
No definition of central reservation in RTRA, so turn to Highways Act 1980 we find
Highways Act 1980
So now turning to Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 we find under Part 1 section 4 General interpretations:-
Now anybody who argues that a central strip of tarmac bordered by solid white lines qualifies in section (b) above as a permanent work separating part of the carriageway for traffic in one direction from the section to be used by traffic moving in the other direction is welcome to try their luck in court. They will fail.
This is why the SCPs position as they do.
Now what I find a little disingenuous in all this, is that if one were to put yourself in the position of a visitor from overseas, entering UK for the first time and driving away from a ferry port, you will see signs which explain the different NSL limits for vehicles on SC and DC roads. I can't for the life of me remember which port it is, (Harwich maybe?) where the graphic for a DC road would lead one to believe that a white cross hatched area would be classed as a central reserve. Most unsatisfactory imho.
But there it is.
One day we'll get round to doing a wiki.
Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
Quite a way down section IV Application and Interpretation
RTRA 1984 said:
“dual-carriageway road” means a road part of which consists of a central reservation to separate a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in one direction from a carriageway to be used by vehicles proceeding in the opposite direction;
The above is as posted by DVD earlier.No definition of central reservation in RTRA, so turn to Highways Act 1980 we find
Highways Act 1980
HA 1980 said:
Part V Improvement of Highways
S 64-1, Dual Carriageways, roundabouts and cycle tracks
Dual carriageways and roundabouts.— (1) Where a highway maintainable at the public expense consists of or comprises a made-up carriageway, the highway authority liable to maintain it may construct and maintain works in that carriageway—
(a)along any length of the highway, for separating a part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from a part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
(b)at crossroads or other junctions, for regulating the movement of traffic.
(2) The powers conferred by subsection (1) above include power, in relation to any such works as are referred to in that subsection—
(a)to light them,
(b)to pave, grass or otherwise cover them or any part of them,
(c)to erect pillars, walls, rails or fences on, around or across them or any part of them, and
(d)to plant on them trees, shrubs and other vegetation either for ornament or in the interests of safety.
(3) A highway authority may alter or remove any works constructed by them under this section.
Which is basically the empowerment of local authorities to perform works of construction etc, but still does not define a central reserve.S 64-1, Dual Carriageways, roundabouts and cycle tracks
Dual carriageways and roundabouts.— (1) Where a highway maintainable at the public expense consists of or comprises a made-up carriageway, the highway authority liable to maintain it may construct and maintain works in that carriageway—
(a)along any length of the highway, for separating a part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from a part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
(b)at crossroads or other junctions, for regulating the movement of traffic.
(2) The powers conferred by subsection (1) above include power, in relation to any such works as are referred to in that subsection—
(a)to light them,
(b)to pave, grass or otherwise cover them or any part of them,
(c)to erect pillars, walls, rails or fences on, around or across them or any part of them, and
(d)to plant on them trees, shrubs and other vegetation either for ornament or in the interests of safety.
(3) A highway authority may alter or remove any works constructed by them under this section.
So now turning to Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 we find under Part 1 section 4 General interpretations:-
TSRGD 2002 said:
"dual carriageway road" means a road which comprises a central reservation
and
"central reservation" means -
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
there is no legal definition of traffic island anywhere that I can find.and
"central reservation" means -
(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
Now anybody who argues that a central strip of tarmac bordered by solid white lines qualifies in section (b) above as a permanent work separating part of the carriageway for traffic in one direction from the section to be used by traffic moving in the other direction is welcome to try their luck in court. They will fail.
This is why the SCPs position as they do.
Now what I find a little disingenuous in all this, is that if one were to put yourself in the position of a visitor from overseas, entering UK for the first time and driving away from a ferry port, you will see signs which explain the different NSL limits for vehicles on SC and DC roads. I can't for the life of me remember which port it is, (Harwich maybe?) where the graphic for a DC road would lead one to believe that a white cross hatched area would be classed as a central reserve. Most unsatisfactory imho.
But there it is.
One day we'll get round to doing a wiki.
Efbe said:
Cheers for that.
I could only see in the highway code it mentioning a barrier as a 'central reservation' ...
this is the closest I can find...
I couldn't tell you where to find it either, but I'm sure I've seen it referred to in here in previous incarnations of this thread.I could only see in the highway code it mentioning a barrier as a 'central reservation' ...
http://www.direct.gov.uk said:
A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.
There is no definition of a central reservation anywhere on that site that I can find. There may be in another act, but I can't find one :/this is the closest I can find...
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 said:
“central reservation” means—
(a)any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b)any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
(a)any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b)any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
Efbe said:
There are alot of theories being touted as fact in this thread, so just trying to get a correct steer here.
Where in either the highway code or Road Traffic Regulation Act does it say a dual carriageway has to be separated by a physical barrier?
Also where does it say a dual carriage way can have one lane on each side?
Not arguing, just want to find out.
There are a lot of oddities out there if you start to look closely.Where in either the highway code or Road Traffic Regulation Act does it say a dual carriageway has to be separated by a physical barrier?
Also where does it say a dual carriage way can have one lane on each side?
Not arguing, just want to find out.
Sorry I haven't got a link (clearly having a senior moment this evening because I can't work out how to do it), but try entering "lanhill Chippenham" into Google Maps, and have a look at the junction where the B4039 meets the A420.
The A420 is NSL through here, which of course being a single carriageway road means 60 for a car. However, for the 100 yards or so around the junction, the two carriageways are separated by a central reservation. This makes this section of road a dual carriageway, and the car limit is 70.
I've been living in this neck of the woods for 30 years, and even I hadn't sussed that out until I happened to see it shown as a 70 limit on the Wilsthire speed limit review site. Proof here if you want it http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/speed-limit-review-a42...
rs1952 said:
Efbe said:
There are alot of theories being touted as fact in this thread, so just trying to get a correct steer here.
Where in either the highway code or Road Traffic Regulation Act does it say a dual carriageway has to be separated by a physical barrier?
Also where does it say a dual carriage way can have one lane on each side?
Not arguing, just want to find out.
There are a lot of oddities out there if you start to look closely.Where in either the highway code or Road Traffic Regulation Act does it say a dual carriageway has to be separated by a physical barrier?
Also where does it say a dual carriage way can have one lane on each side?
Not arguing, just want to find out.
Sorry I haven't got a link (clearly having a senior moment this evening because I can't work out how to do it), but try entering "lanhill Chippenham" into Google Maps, and have a look at the junction where the B4039 meets the A420.
The A420 is NSL through here, which of course being a single carriageway road means 60 for a car. However, for the 100 yards or so around the junction, the two carriageways are separated by a central reservation. This makes this section of road a dual carriageway, and the car limit is 70.
I've been living in this neck of the woods for 30 years, and even I hadn't sussed that out until I happened to see it shown as a 70 limit on the Wilsthire speed limit review site. Proof here if you want it http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/speed-limit-review-a42...
Efbe said:
There are alot of theories being touted as fact in this thread, so just trying to get a correct steer here.
Where in either the highway code or Road Traffic Regulation Act does it say a dual carriageway has to be separated by a physical barrier?
Also where does it say a dual carriage way can have one lane on each side?
Not arguing, just want to find out.
Flipping 'eck - how many times does it need to be said? It is not specified because the number of LANES is utterly irrelevant. It can be any number from 1 upwards. What matters is whether there is physical separation between the CARRIAGEWAYS be it a barrier or a strip of land. Painted lines are not a PHYSICAL barrier so don't qualify.Where in either the highway code or Road Traffic Regulation Act does it say a dual carriageway has to be separated by a physical barrier?
Also where does it say a dual carriage way can have one lane on each side?
Not arguing, just want to find out.
Efbe said:
saaby93 said:
crops up regularly- see half way down for regs
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
thanks for that. though it doesn't actually definitively answer either question. I now understand why there is so much confusion over what constitutes a central reservation. I for one thought, and still think, solid white lines with hatchings is such a thing, but I can see why this may not hold up in court, so will be more careful in future in these instances.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Efbe said:
now then to my other question. 99% of the nation believe that a dual carriageway is a four laned road, two going each way. Now I can't find it in the highway code anywhere that this is the case,but it does kind of imply it by talking about 2 lanes, 3 lanes but not 1 lanes per direction.
Then 99% are wrong. The key element is the central physical divider. Efbe said:
so if I am driving along a normal NSL A-road with 2 lanes,1 each way. which then splits up due a tunnel, and each lane goes through the tunnel separately. Does this then become a dual carriageway.
If this is the case, then would not a lot of bridges around the country come under this?
I would think the tunnel configuration you suggest is extremely rare, can you give an example? The expense of boring two separate tunnels rather than one would be prohibitive.If this is the case, then would not a lot of bridges around the country come under this?
Hooli said:
Tunnels normally have speed limit signs do they not? I'm pretty sure they do to my memory at least.
Many do but some don't. A20 near Folkestone and A27 Shoreham by-pass are NSL.Dr Jekyll said:
Puff the magic.. said:
All single carriageway roads with whatever number of lanes have a maximum possible speed limit at NSL of 60mph for cars and motorcycles.
Unless it's a motorway, in which case the maximum possible limit is 70 irrespective of the number of carriageways. Red Devil said:
Efbe said:
There are alot of theories being touted as fact in this thread, so just trying to get a correct steer here.
Where in either the highway code or Road Traffic Regulation Act does it say a dual carriageway has to be separated by a physical barrier?
Also where does it say a dual carriage way can have one lane on each side?
Not arguing, just want to find out.
Flipping 'eck - how many times does it need to be said? It is not specified because the number of LANES is utterly irrelevant. It can be any number from 1 upwards. What matters is whether there is physical separation between the CARRIAGEWAYS be it a barrier or a strip of land. Painted lines are not a PHYSICAL barrier so don't qualify.Where in either the highway code or Road Traffic Regulation Act does it say a dual carriageway has to be separated by a physical barrier?
Also where does it say a dual carriage way can have one lane on each side?
Not arguing, just want to find out.
Efbe said:
saaby93 said:
crops up regularly- see half way down for regs
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
thanks for that. though it doesn't actually definitively answer either question. I now understand why there is so much confusion over what constitutes a central reservation. I for one thought, and still think, solid white lines with hatchings is such a thing, but I can see why this may not hold up in court, so will be more careful in future in these instances.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Efbe said:
now then to my other question. 99% of the nation believe that a dual carriageway is a four laned road, two going each way. Now I can't find it in the highway code anywhere that this is the case,but it does kind of imply it by talking about 2 lanes, 3 lanes but not 1 lanes per direction.
Then 99% are wrong. The key element is the central physical divider. Efbe said:
so if I am driving along a normal NSL A-road with 2 lanes,1 each way. which then splits up due a tunnel, and each lane goes through the tunnel separately. Does this then become a dual carriageway.
If this is the case, then would not a lot of bridges around the country come under this?
I would think the tunnel configuration you suggest is extremely rare, can you give an example? The expense of boring two separate tunnels rather than one would be prohibitive.If this is the case, then would not a lot of bridges around the country come under this?
Hooli said:
Tunnels normally have speed limit signs do they not? I'm pretty sure they do to my memory at least.
Many do but some don't. A20 near Folkestone and A27 Shoreham by-pass are NSL.Firstly the highway code never actually states that one lane on each side of a central reservation is a dual carriageway, however the clarification I asked for was given by hooli
Secondly, you say physical barrier, but I see no mention of a physical barrier anywhere on the highway code or corresponding acts. I am asking for clarification of this, but it does not seem to appear anywhere. what are stating your opinion as fact, and appears you may well be talking rubbish.
anyhow, hopefully there will be some clarification somewhere of what constitutes a central reservation...
Efbe said:
anyhow, hopefully there will be some clarification somewhere of what constitutes a central reservation...
this one?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I think Opulent has it with a carriageway being a paved width
Carriageway being the tarmaced highway as before
Where there are two carriageways i.e. with a lump of grass or kerbing inbetween it's a dual carriageway
Where it's one carriageway but they've painted cross hatching inbetween lanes it's still a single carriageway
Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 10th November 22:18
rs1952 said:
Puff the magic.. said:
The NSL is only signed at the end of a restriction.
There will be no repeater signs along the length of the road when NSL applies, they are not allowed.
Unless there is a system of street lighting in place, when they are allowed.There will be no repeater signs along the length of the road when NSL applies, they are not allowed.
I have also seen cases of NSL repeaters coupled with camera warning signs. Whether they are legal or not I have no idea, but they are in use.
cazzer said:
70 MPH categorically stated and well explained on the ABD site.
http://www.abd.org.uk/know_your_speed_limits.htm
Quoting myself cos it would appear lots of people cant be arsed reading a threadhttp://www.abd.org.uk/know_your_speed_limits.htm
ABD said:
While most drivers are clear about what a motorway is, some are confused about the definition of a dual carriageway. For a road to be classed as a dual carriageway, the two directions of traffic flow must be physically separated by a central reservation. A road where the two directions of flow are separated only by lines painted on the road surface is a single carriageway, regardless of the number of traffic lanes that may be available to the traffic in each direction. So a road with three or four lanes is still a single carriageway if there is no central reservation
Edited by cazzer on Tuesday 9th November 22:28
saaby93 said:
Efbe said:
anyhow, hopefully there will be some clarification somewhere of what constitutes a central reservation...
this one?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I think Opulent has it with a carriageway being a paved width
Carriageway being the tarmaced highway as before
Where there are two carriageways i.e. with a lump of grass or kerbing inbetween it's a dual carriageway
Where it's one carriageway but they've painted cross hatching inbetween lanes it's still a single carriageway
Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 10th November 22:18
[quote=DESIGN MANUAL FOR ROADS AND BRIDGES, VOLUME 6 ROAD GEOMETRYSECTION 1 LINKS]
4.6.1 Central reserves provide physical separation between carriageways thereby providing freedom from interference from opposing traffic, particularly where space is allowed for the construction of a VRS, if appropriate.
If fact this more clearly describes just the need for a space that separates the carriageways to prevent interference of opposing traffic, which would include hatchings.
cazzer said:
cazzer said:
70 MPH categorically stated and well explained on the ABD site.
http://www.abd.org.uk/know_your_speed_limits.htm
Quoting myself cos it would appear lots of people cant be arsed reading a threadhttp://www.abd.org.uk/know_your_speed_limits.htm
ABD said:
While most drivers are clear about what a motorway is, some are confused about the definition of a dual carriageway. For a road to be classed as a dual carriageway, the two directions of traffic flow must be physically separated by a central reservation. A road where the two directions of flow are separated only by lines painted on the road surface is a single carriageway, regardless of the number of traffic lanes that may be available to the traffic in each direction. So a road with three or four lanes is still a single carriageway if there is no central reservation
Edited by cazzer on Tuesday 9th November 22:28
Edited by Efbe on Wednesday 10th November 22:41
Efbe said:
cazzer said:
cazzer said:
70 MPH categorically stated and well explained on the ABD site.
http://www.abd.org.uk/know_your_speed_limits.htm
Quoting myself cos it would appear lots of people cant be arsed reading a threadhttp://www.abd.org.uk/know_your_speed_limits.htm
ABD said:
While most drivers are clear about what a motorway is, some are confused about the definition of a dual carriageway. For a road to be classed as a dual carriageway, the two directions of traffic flow must be physically separated by a central reservation. A road where the two directions of flow are separated only by lines painted on the road surface is a single carriageway, regardless of the number of traffic lanes that may be available to the traffic in each direction. So a road with three or four lanes is still a single carriageway if there is no central reservation
Edited by cazzer on Tuesday 9th November 22:28
Edited by Efbe on Wednesday 10th November 22:41
cazzer said:
The link is in the quote.
I would guess the ABD lawyers have passed it.
lol, eyesight-fail there.I would guess the ABD lawyers have passed it.
however by their description, and example pictures, I don't think it is referring to hatchings, more single or double lines in the middle.
I'm not too sure if the ABD is a group that can really clarify this point, but their description would err on the side of hatchings not being a central reservation, their text infers this, but their example pictures don't :/
tvrgit said:
Efbe said:
cazzer said:
cazzer said:
70 MPH categorically stated and well explained on the ABD site.
http://www.abd.org.uk/know_your_speed_limits.htm
Quoting myself cos it would appear lots of people cant be arsed reading a threadhttp://www.abd.org.uk/know_your_speed_limits.htm
ABD said:
While most drivers are clear about what a motorway is, some are confused about the definition of a dual carriageway. For a road to be classed as a dual carriageway, the two directions of traffic flow must be physically separated by a central reservation. A road where the two directions of flow are separated only by lines painted on the road surface is a single carriageway, regardless of the number of traffic lanes that may be available to the traffic in each direction. So a road with three or four lanes is still a single carriageway if there is no central reservation
Edited by cazzer on Tuesday 9th November 22:28
Edited by Efbe on Wednesday 10th November 22:41
Hang on
"land between two carriageways" means that it's obviously not part of a carriageway - ie not surfaced. You have a carriageway going one way, and another going the other way, and land between; OR
A permanent work such as a barrier.
White lines and hatchings do not fall into either of those categories, ergo it's not a dual carriageway.
2 hours ago you said:
I could only see in the highway code it mentioning a barrier as a 'central reservation' ...
this is the closest I can find...
YOU quoted the TSRGD 2002 - there it is! TSRGD is law, as I just said. What further clarification do you need?http://www.direct.gov.uk said:
A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.
There is no definition of a central reservation anywhere on that site that I can find. There may be in another act, but I can't find one :/this is the closest I can find...
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 said:
“central reservation” means—
(a)any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b)any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
(a)any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b)any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
"land between two carriageways" means that it's obviously not part of a carriageway - ie not surfaced. You have a carriageway going one way, and another going the other way, and land between; OR
A permanent work such as a barrier.
White lines and hatchings do not fall into either of those categories, ergo it's not a dual carriageway.
Edited by tvrgit on Wednesday 10th November 23:13
tvrgit said:
Hang on
because these definitions do not state whether or not two solid lines with hatchings between constitutes a carriageway separation or a piece of land between carriageways.2 hours ago you said:
I could only see in the highway code it mentioning a barrier as a 'central reservation' ...
this is the closest I can find...
YOU quoted the TSRGD 2002 - there it is! TSRGD is law, as I just said. What further clarification do you need?http://www.direct.gov.uk said:
A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.
There is no definition of a central reservation anywhere on that site that I can find. There may be in another act, but I can't find one :/this is the closest I can find...
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 said:
“central reservation” means—
(a)any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b)any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
(a)any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b)any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,
which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction;
edit: unfortunately land does not mean this, it could mean anything. all it definitely means is a space
its ok though, I have looked through several other law forums for the answer, and basically there is none. it would appear that there is no definitive answer. unless there is a court case somewhere showing what happens when you try it, probably best not to go at 70 if the two carriageways are only separated by hatchings.
Edited by Efbe on Wednesday 10th November 23:12
Efbe said:
edit: unfortunately land does not mean this, it could mean anything. all it definitely means is a space
Yes exactly - a space that's not part of a carriageway. A carriageway is the surfaced bit. The space between two carriageways, by definition, isn't surfaced, so can't be a bit that's surfaced and painted.Efbe said:
its ok though, I have looked through several other law forums for the answer, and basically there is none. it would appear that there is no definitive answer.
Yes there is, and you quoted it!Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff