"NO ENTRY" sign, private car park, legallity?
Discussion
There is a local supermarket that has a one way system around it's car park, see http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a... Sorry I don't know how to display the pic.
99% of drivers observe the signs but there are a few who think it is OK to just nip through the "No Entry sign to grab the last space when it is busy. I have had "words" a couple of times as apart from the annoying fact that they have taken the space you were driving the correct way around to, I think it is illegal. I already know that there are two options from the law.
1 Failing to comply with a road traffic sign (endorsable I believe)
2 Failing to follow the prescriber route (non endorsable I believe)
Question, as this is a private car park, does the law apply, i.e is it an offence to ignore the signs?
99% of drivers observe the signs but there are a few who think it is OK to just nip through the "No Entry sign to grab the last space when it is busy. I have had "words" a couple of times as apart from the annoying fact that they have taken the space you were driving the correct way around to, I think it is illegal. I already know that there are two options from the law.
1 Failing to comply with a road traffic sign (endorsable I believe)
2 Failing to follow the prescriber route (non endorsable I believe)
Question, as this is a private car park, does the law apply, i.e is it an offence to ignore the signs?
Where's tvrgit when you need him?: 
As I see it, there are two matters to take into account - the law and practicalities.
1. The law
A car park is private land, much the same as a private road is. It is possible to commit offences on private land (eg mow somebody down in a supermarket car park and you'll probably be looking at DWDCA as a minimum). Personally I would have my doubts if this extended to ignoring road signs (eg your local supermarket can put as many 5mph speed limit signs up as it likes, but you are not going to be prosecuted for exceeding it)
2. The practicalities
Even if you were to be technically guilty of committing an offence of ignoring a No Entry sign in a public car park, who the hell is going to nick you for it? Unless Plod has sent a car up there to collect the doughnuts, nobody with sufficient authroity is likely to be around to observe it. And as sure as the sun is going to rise in the morning, the supermarket themselves would have no legal backing if they sought to impose a "fine."
As I see it, there are two matters to take into account - the law and practicalities.
1. The law
A car park is private land, much the same as a private road is. It is possible to commit offences on private land (eg mow somebody down in a supermarket car park and you'll probably be looking at DWDCA as a minimum). Personally I would have my doubts if this extended to ignoring road signs (eg your local supermarket can put as many 5mph speed limit signs up as it likes, but you are not going to be prosecuted for exceeding it)
2. The practicalities
Even if you were to be technically guilty of committing an offence of ignoring a No Entry sign in a public car park, who the hell is going to nick you for it? Unless Plod has sent a car up there to collect the doughnuts, nobody with sufficient authroity is likely to be around to observe it. And as sure as the sun is going to rise in the morning, the supermarket themselves would have no legal backing if they sought to impose a "fine."
PintOfKittens said:
Unless there is a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) backing up the sign (Filed at the local council IIRC), its completely meaningless and can be ignored
tvrgit may be lurking to say I'm wrong but quiet a few road signs are not fully backed up by TROs. It's not going to stop PC1234 issuing you a a ticket and for you to go to magistrates to show there was no TRO if you can be bothered.If you ignored it and had an accident what would your insurance say?
Piersman2 said:
Sorry OP, but I do hope there's not regulation as I often go the wrong way round carparks.
Not from any great desire to get to a space quicker but just because I never look at the arrows and inevitably end up going the wrong way 'cos I is stupid
Good job I can't get fined for it!
Sorry I don't know how to post the google pic of the car park, but it was not the arrows on the tarmac which prompted this thread, rather the 2 large "NO ENTRY" signs. You would have to be blind as well as stupid to miss them!Not from any great desire to get to a space quicker but just because I never look at the arrows and inevitably end up going the wrong way 'cos I is stupid
Good job I can't get fined for it!
I am guessing the same law would apply to garage/petrol/service station forecourts where they display entry & exit signage with one way & no entry?
I've been looking at this again, both in Google Maps and Google Earth.
Interesting ......
I see it ain't actually a supermarket car park, its a car park for a small shopping precinct. I would have expected to see an indicator in the road surface (like a line of cobbles at the entrance or a change in the road surface material) to show the end of the extent of the adopted highway. I can't see any such indicator, and indeed the street lighting in the car park area looks remarkably similar to that used on the main road.
So what, I hear you ask? The absence of any indicator to show the end of the extent of adoption may mean that the car park is adopted highway and, if so, then the "No Entry" sign would be legally enforceable provided that a TRO was in place.
Back to my point about practicalities, however, whether or not it actually would be enforced is another matter altogether.
Interesting ......
I see it ain't actually a supermarket car park, its a car park for a small shopping precinct. I would have expected to see an indicator in the road surface (like a line of cobbles at the entrance or a change in the road surface material) to show the end of the extent of the adopted highway. I can't see any such indicator, and indeed the street lighting in the car park area looks remarkably similar to that used on the main road.
So what, I hear you ask?
The absence of any indicator to show the end of the extent of adoption may mean that the car park is adopted highway and, if so, then the "No Entry" sign would be legally enforceable provided that a TRO was in place.Back to my point about practicalities, however, whether or not it actually would be enforced is another matter altogether.
rs1952 said:
Probably sod all in a supermarket car park, unless you happened to say to them "I had just ignored the No Entry sign and then I had a head on collision and it wasnt my fault"
EFA 
I'm not too happy with the way this thread is going with useful roadsigns eg at service stations no-entry and entry.
What next 'keep left except when overtaking' on all the road network
'no overtaking' before every bend.
Not to mention 'authorised vehicles only' at every back entrance to a motorway service station
rs1952 said:
Where's tvrgit when you need him?:
Even gits have to eat sometimes!PintOfKittens said:
Unless there is a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) backing up the sign (Filed at the local council IIRC), its completely meaningless and can be ignored
Exactly right, and it's very very unlikely that a TRO would be made within a private car park, for reasons I'll come to in a minute.saaby93 said:
tvrgit may be lurking to say I'm wrong but quiet a few road signs are not fully backed up by TROs. It's not going to stop PC1234 issuing you a a ticket and for you to go to magistrates to show there was no TRO if you can be bothered.
If you ignored it and had an accident what would your insurance say?
To take your second point first, that is probably the only consideration. IF you were going the "wrong" way and had a collision, then the insurers might apportion the fault differently from they way they might have, if everybody had been following the signs.If you ignored it and had an accident what would your insurance say?
We've previously had BiB explain, IIRC, that insurance applies to "public places" or "areas to which the public have access" such as supermarket car parks, petrol station forecourts, etc. However, those "public places" are different from "roads".
You're right about some road signs not having TROs, despite the Traffic Signs and General Directions specifically listing the regulatory signs, (one-way, no entry, banned turns, speed limits etc) that cannot be erected unless there is a TRO to which they give effect.
Pay attention now, because this is the important bit. The LA is given powers to make TRO's under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, Section 1, which says "The traffic authority for a road outside Greater London may make an order under this section (referred to in this Act as a “traffic regulation order”) in respect of the road..."
Under "interpretation" of that 1984 Act (Section 142), a "road" is defined as “road”— (a) in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes, and
(b) in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 (it's Section 151 of the RSA(84) but basically the same meaning as above).
The LA can only make Orders for "roads" as defined (whether they maintain them at public expense or not), but not for other areas to which the public might have access, but are not roads.
There may be exceptions, (such as where a public road runs between two supermarkets with parking on each side) but generally, this means that the LA cannot make TROs for areas that are not "roads". There is no provision in the Act for them to do so.
That leads to two conclusions:
1. There is unlikely to be a TRO in existence for any signs similar to road signs, in car parks; and
2. Even if there is, then that TRO is, IMHO, probably ultra vires and has no legal standing.
In either case, the signs are not enforceable!
vonhosen said:
Even if there is no TRO to back up the signs, Sec 3 RTA could still apply.
That's true, I was looking at it strictly from the "placing of the sign" aspect - TSRGD specifically says those signs should only be erected (on the road) where a TRO is in place - however you'll know better than me if, in other areas, ignoring the sign is still an RTA offence - that's not my field. And it is yours!Piersman2 said:
Sorry OP, but I do hope there's not regulation as I often go the wrong way round carparks.
Not from any great desire to get to a space quicker but just because I never look at the arrows and inevitably end up going the wrong way 'cos I is stupid
Good job I can't get fined for it!
The Tesco car park at Gallows Corner/Harold Wood (Essex) will gladly send you to closed exit gates if you follow the arrows.Not from any great desire to get to a space quicker but just because I never look at the arrows and inevitably end up going the wrong way 'cos I is stupid
Good job I can't get fined for it!
Over Christmas they kindly opened all gates and even the one to Bryant Avenue ( a quicker way to the A127) but put (or did not remove) a 'no left turn' sign up - which, if observed, completely and utterly destroyed the whole point of opening the gate. Few drivers did observe the sign when they rolled up top the stop line. Those who did panic, then had to back up a little or turn madly to get over to the right.
My point is I often find private car parks badly set out and badly signposted - so if those ignoring the 'no entry' sign here do so with care, and it actually makes sense to do do as far as traffic flow is concerned, just go ahead!
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff