NIP but unsure of driver
Discussion
I have just received a NIP for what will be an SP50 I guess, however; the car reg is not mine.
On looking at my diary I had a test drive in a car from a local garage at 11am that day, the offence occurred at 12:30, I had a meeting at my office in the diary for 12:30 but since this offence was presumably sent to the garage first, I asume they have sent back saying I had the car or how else would the Police have got to me? I am unsure whether I still had the car at that point and the road where the offence took place is a fairly major one near where I work and the garage.
I have thusfar simply filled in all the NO answers on the NIP then I read some of the answers on this forum saying if unsure dont return the NIP as this can be construed as "trying to pervert the cause of Justice".
So what should I do ?
A. Talk to the garage and see what time they say I had the car until and ask to see proof.
B. Ask to see the photograph to ID the driver ( can it be used I thought this was against Human Rights)
C. Send back the NIP saying no, although this really doesnt seem like the right thing to do.
Lastly both my girlfriend and I drove the car!! so assuming the garage have the car booked to me and can prove it, should I still request the photo to ID the driver? And what happens if we cant ID the driver?
Any help much appreciated. I have 6 points 3 from last summer and 3 from late 2001
On looking at my diary I had a test drive in a car from a local garage at 11am that day, the offence occurred at 12:30, I had a meeting at my office in the diary for 12:30 but since this offence was presumably sent to the garage first, I asume they have sent back saying I had the car or how else would the Police have got to me? I am unsure whether I still had the car at that point and the road where the offence took place is a fairly major one near where I work and the garage.
I have thusfar simply filled in all the NO answers on the NIP then I read some of the answers on this forum saying if unsure dont return the NIP as this can be construed as "trying to pervert the cause of Justice".
So what should I do ?
A. Talk to the garage and see what time they say I had the car until and ask to see proof.
B. Ask to see the photograph to ID the driver ( can it be used I thought this was against Human Rights)
C. Send back the NIP saying no, although this really doesnt seem like the right thing to do.
Lastly both my girlfriend and I drove the car!! so assuming the garage have the car booked to me and can prove it, should I still request the photo to ID the driver? And what happens if we cant ID the driver?
Any help much appreciated. I have 6 points 3 from last summer and 3 from late 2001
Hi thanks for the response, been stewing on this most of the day (nine points tends to focus the mind) thought best procedure would be to:
A. Call in at the garage and ask to see the Sales manager to verify I had the car and see some evidence, although lets face it they've seen the NIP once so could have written anything in a diary.
B. Request to see the photo,
Surely it becomes my word against theres if the picture shows nothing?
A. Call in at the garage and ask to see the Sales manager to verify I had the car and see some evidence, although lets face it they've seen the NIP once so could have written anything in a diary.
B. Request to see the photo,
Surely it becomes my word against theres if the picture shows nothing?
>if the NIP is NOT sent to you within 14 days of the offence, it's not valid.
Hi James reading your other post do I take it this doesnt apply to me since I am not the registered owner and therefore I cant use this get out, as the incident occurred on 24th March and the letter sent to me dated 20/04/04. Just thought it might be easier than playing chase the photograph to see who was driving.
Hi James reading your other post do I take it this doesnt apply to me since I am not the registered owner and therefore I cant use this get out, as the incident occurred on 24th March and the letter sent to me dated 20/04/04. Just thought it might be easier than playing chase the photograph to see who was driving.
how did you get caught gatso ?
did u not notice the flash ?
it should say on the NIP what you where caught with i think
if it says gatso and you didn't notice a flash then i think you can asume that the garage is trying to pass the blame to you
>> Edited by mattd on Sunday 25th April 23:05
did u not notice the flash ?
it should say on the NIP what you where caught with i think
if it says gatso and you didn't notice a flash then i think you can asume that the garage is trying to pass the blame to you
>> Edited by mattd on Sunday 25th April 23:05
maybe write a letter explaining the circumstances, make sure you detail what you have in your diary ( hopefully not 'a meeting' with Francine down at the massage parlour - someone who might be willing to back you up with what time you met, etc. ), and that your girlfriend drove as well.
request a copy of the pictures, just to be sure, and if you ( or she ) are not clearly identified then return the form, saying that you don't feel that this applies to you. i don't know the exact wording on the form - you should get advice as to if you should sign it or not in this case, but i suspect not.
if you're not the reg'd owner, then i don't see how they can do you for failiure to disclose the driver - not your responsiblity, i THINK you would only have to fill this in if it was clearly you behind the wheel.
for all you know, the spotty apprentice ragged it up the road to put some gas in it, won't cough, the md already has 9 points from previous convictions, and can't pin it on anybody else.
good luck.
request a copy of the pictures, just to be sure, and if you ( or she ) are not clearly identified then return the form, saying that you don't feel that this applies to you. i don't know the exact wording on the form - you should get advice as to if you should sign it or not in this case, but i suspect not.
if you're not the reg'd owner, then i don't see how they can do you for failiure to disclose the driver - not your responsiblity, i THINK you would only have to fill this in if it was clearly you behind the wheel.
for all you know, the spotty apprentice ragged it up the road to put some gas in it, won't cough, the md already has 9 points from previous convictions, and can't pin it on anybody else.
good luck.
The law does not place the burden of proof upon you at all. Ultimately, the onus is on the prosecution to prove you were the driver, not for you to prove you weren't.
However, in order to make this easier for them, the Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act does require you to provide them with this information if possible. But this does not constitute a burden of proof. In other words if you genuinely don't know and have no way of finding out then you have a valid defence - there is absolutely no need for you to provide an alibi (though if you had one it would of course be a good way of complying with s172).
Note that the form provided won't give you an "option to tick" to cover this eventuality, as the SCP's don't really want masses of people taking this defence as it would render static gatsos redundant overnight! But again there is no law dictating that you have to use a pre-printed form to comply with section 172.
In practical terms I would contact the SCP directly stating that you currently have no means of complying with their request, and asking if they have any evidence (eg photographic) that might assist you in reaching a decision. All the law requires you to do is exercise "due diligence" in attempting to identify the driver. In other words make a good effort to find out, eg including going to the SCP's office to view pictures if necessary, but ultimately if you cannot do so then you have a valid defence.
(All of the above is my own opinion, based on research I have done. But I am not a lawyer and I would advise that you see one to confirm what I have said. Most will give you half an hour FOC)
However, in order to make this easier for them, the Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act does require you to provide them with this information if possible. But this does not constitute a burden of proof. In other words if you genuinely don't know and have no way of finding out then you have a valid defence - there is absolutely no need for you to provide an alibi (though if you had one it would of course be a good way of complying with s172).
Note that the form provided won't give you an "option to tick" to cover this eventuality, as the SCP's don't really want masses of people taking this defence as it would render static gatsos redundant overnight! But again there is no law dictating that you have to use a pre-printed form to comply with section 172.
In practical terms I would contact the SCP directly stating that you currently have no means of complying with their request, and asking if they have any evidence (eg photographic) that might assist you in reaching a decision. All the law requires you to do is exercise "due diligence" in attempting to identify the driver. In other words make a good effort to find out, eg including going to the SCP's office to view pictures if necessary, but ultimately if you cannot do so then you have a valid defence.
(All of the above is my own opinion, based on research I have done. But I am not a lawyer and I would advise that you see one to confirm what I have said. Most will give you half an hour FOC)
Hi Folks,
I spoke to a lawyer, The Garage and the SCP, the garage said " we have it in our diary that you had the car" and produced the test drive booking form that said 11am, I asked what their diary said and they went all vague on me!! I spoke to SCP and explained the above and that there were 3 people in the car at the time of the test drive, they were most cheery and said ah yes, that could be a problem particularly if you were caught from behind "send us a letter explaining this and request the photo" spoke to solicitor who agreed. I sent a guaranteed next day letter and requested the photo!! So lets wait and see what that shows, thanks for everyones input so far.
I spoke to a lawyer, The Garage and the SCP, the garage said " we have it in our diary that you had the car" and produced the test drive booking form that said 11am, I asked what their diary said and they went all vague on me!! I spoke to SCP and explained the above and that there were 3 people in the car at the time of the test drive, they were most cheery and said ah yes, that could be a problem particularly if you were caught from behind "send us a letter explaining this and request the photo" spoke to solicitor who agreed. I sent a guaranteed next day letter and requested the photo!! So lets wait and see what that shows, thanks for everyones input so far.
Hi Folks,
I just got my Gatzo photo and you cant make out the driver, I have also requested that the garage I had the test drive with confirm that there was more than one person in the car, I asked the police directly "what is the procedure if we cant identify the driver?" to which they did not reply other than "you have 14 days to tell us who was driving"
anybody any thoughts on how to proceed from here ?
I just got my Gatzo photo and you cant make out the driver, I have also requested that the garage I had the test drive with confirm that there was more than one person in the car, I asked the police directly "what is the procedure if we cant identify the driver?" to which they did not reply other than "you have 14 days to tell us who was driving"
anybody any thoughts on how to proceed from here ?
bellboy said:
Hi Folks,
I just got my Gatzo photo and you cant make out the driver, I have also requested that the garage I had the test drive with confirm that there was more than one person in the car, I asked the police directly "what is the procedure if we cant identify the driver?" to which they did not reply other than "you have 14 days to tell us who was driving"
anybody any thoughts on how to proceed from here ?
So can you identify how many people are in the vehicle from the Gatso photo?
If there's only one then I would have thought you are in the clear.
Good luck.
Phil.
If you send a letter back to the police with the NIP not filled in and a letter stating that cannot ID the driver i think the police won't bother you again. As it is up to the registered keeper to provide the details not you.
(Disclaimer: this is just my view i don't know exactly what would happen)
>> Edited by mattd on Wednesday 19th May 18:29
(Disclaimer: this is just my view i don't know exactly what would happen)
>> Edited by mattd on Wednesday 19th May 18:29
kevinday said:
I still think that if the time was 12.30 and you were in a meeting at 12.30 (and can prove it) your best response is to say you were not in that car at the time.
I agree, especially if the garage cannot with certainty say that the car was with you at the time (you say they have a diary entry booking the car out to you at 11am, but you did not say whether there was one recording the car back in). If you have an alibi (the more independent, thrustworthy and reliable the witnesses, the better), just write back that you were elsewhere at the time of the alleged offence and refer them back to the RK - Streaky
Edited to undo a spurious "not"
- S >> Edited by streaky on Friday 21st May 04:58
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