Caught on redlight camera but already past the line

[Dixy]

SS2. said:

The offence occurs if any part of the vehicle proceeds beyond the stop line when the red light is showing ie it is not an offence to stop astride the line before they change, just so long as you don't move forward when they go red. Nor is it an offence to proceed across the junction with the red light showing, as long as it wasn't red [at any point] when the vehicle crossed the line (ignoring for a moment the fact that amber means the same as red if unsafe to stop, etc etc).

Are you sure that the vehicle is completely beyond the stop line in both pictures ?

There are many lights where the rear of the car has not crossed the line but the driver is beyond the lights and so has no way of knowing their state.
Can you link to the statute that states the above.

[SS2.]

Dixy said:

SS2. said:

The offence occurs if any part of the vehicle proceeds beyond the stop line when the red light is showing ie it is not an offence to stop astride the line before they change, just so long as you don't move forward when they go red. Nor is it an offence to proceed across the junction with the red light showing, as long as it wasn't red [at any point] when the vehicle crossed the line (ignoring for a moment the fact that amber means the same as red if unsafe to stop, etc etc).

Are you sure that the vehicle is completely beyond the stop line in both pictures ?

There are many lights where the rear of the car has not crossed the line but the driver is beyond the lights and so has no way of knowing their state.
Can you link to the statute that states the above.

Schedule 14 TSRGD 2016 said:

5.(1) This paragraph applies to traffic light signals.

<..snip..>

(3) Subject to sub-paragraphs (4) to (6), the red signal conveys the prohibition that vehicular traffic must not proceed beyond the stop line.

Link

[Sa Calobra]

Ok, proceed past what is the laws interpretation then.. for me it's car continues travel and full car over or two snaps moving at a certain speed.


I.e. intent.

[SS2.]

Sa Calobra said:

Ok, proceed past what is the laws interpretation then..

When any part of the vehicle passes over / proceeds beyond the stop line when the red light is showing.

Other than the fact the vehicle must be moving for the offence to occur, speed is not a factor in its commission.

Sa Calobra said:

Intent

Not relevant, nor does it require to be proven.

[Sa Calobra]

The car had stopped. Very quickly.

[SS2.]

Sa Calobra said:

The car had stopped. Very quickly.

Ignoring for now the message conveyed by the amber only light, if the vehicle stopped such that no part of it had proceeded beyond the stop line whilst the red light was showing, no problem.

Even if it was anchoring on, had any part of the car passed over the stop line on red then, as far as the legislation was concerned, the offence would have been complete.

[Sa Calobra]

But a couple of posts up you mentioned the car must be moving for the offence to occur.

[SS2.]

Sa Calobra said:

But a couple of posts up you mentioned the car must be moving for the offence to occur.

You cannot proceed unless you are moving.

The offence cannot be committed unless the vehicle is moving.

Being stopped on or over the line before the light changes to red is not an offence.

[4040vision]

SS2. said:

Sa Calobra said:

But a couple of posts up you mentioned the car must be moving for the offence to occur.

You cannot proceed unless you are moving.

The offence cannot be committed unless the vehicle is moving.

Being stopped on or over the line before the light changes to red is not an offence.

...and if you are stopped in that position when the lights change to red and you remain stopped the red light camera will not trigger. It can't trigger if the vehicle doesn't move from the sensor that is in front of the stop line to the sensor that is after the stop line.
Good job someone thought of that.

[V8LM]

I also thought there was a second or two delay between red and activation?

[SS2.]

V8LM said:

I also thought there was a second or two delay between red and activation?

There is - more likely to be closer to 1 second than 2.

[Engineer792]

So it's possible for a heavy artic to pull off from the lights while they're still on green, but still get snapped by the camera

[4040vision]

Engineer792 said:

So it's possible for a heavy artic to pull off from the lights while they're still on green, but still get snapped by the camera

It is thatsright. That isn't a problem though as the viewer of the offence has a clue in the pictures made obvious by the f'****-great lorry in the pictures.

[Dixy]

SS2. said:

Dixy said:

SS2. said:

The offence occurs if any part of the vehicle proceeds beyond the stop line when the red light is showing ie it is not an offence to stop astride the line before they change, just so long as you don't move forward when they go red. Nor is it an offence to proceed across the junction with the red light showing, as long as it wasn't red [at any point] when the vehicle crossed the line (ignoring for a moment the fact that amber means the same as red if unsafe to stop, etc etc).

Are you sure that the vehicle is completely beyond the stop line in both pictures ?

There are many lights where the rear of the car has not crossed the line but the driver is beyond the lights and so has no way of knowing their state.
Can you link to the statute that states the above.

Schedule 14 TSRGD 2016 said:

5.(1) This paragraph applies to traffic light signals.

<..snip..>

(3) Subject to sub-paragraphs (4) to (6), the red signal conveys the prohibition that vehicular traffic must not proceed beyond the stop line.

Link

Thank you for providing the link.
These things are always as clear as mud but I could not find the bit that said "any part of the vehicle"
I had always understood once the front wheels had crossed the line then it was ok. I am not disputing what you say just trying to be certain. Are you professionally qualified to comment.

[Engineer792]

4040vision said:

Engineer792 said:

So it's possible for a heavy artic to pull off from the lights while they're still on green, but still get snapped by the camera

It is thatsright. That isn't a problem though as the viewer of the offence has a clue in the pictures made obvious by the f'****-great lorry in the pictures.

Would you trust them to use common sense, though?
Technically, an offense has been committed.

[SS2.]

Dixy said:

Are you professionally qualified to comment.

Do I have to be ?

Does it mean I'm wrong if I'm not professionally qualified ?

[Dixy]

No you do not and no it does not. please do not take it as a put down, the information and supporting link are good, I just maintain a healthy skepticism for everything on the interweb until confirmed beyond reasonable doubt. If you had said you were a barrister specializing in motoring law it would have held more weight than if you are a ferret farmer in Norwich.
At present I am taking your word as correct as it is safer than trusting my previous understanding.
However I would like a definitive answer.

[SS2.]

'The front part of a vehicle crossed the stop-line at traffic lights when the light was green. When half its length was over the line, the vehicle was obstructed by turning traffic and by the time it proceeded the light had changed to red.

It was held that it is an offence if any part of the vehicle crosses the line when the light is red even though the other part crossed when the light was green.'

Ryan v Smith [1967] 1 AER 611.

I'm neither barrister nor ferret farmer, by the way.

[Dixy]

Thanks for the clarification, suspect you are nearer to the barrister end of the scale than the farmer.
Supplemental question, Where there are 2 stop lines, one for motor vehicles and then one for cyclists, would the car have to have completely passed both?

[SS2.]

Dixy said:

Supplemental question, Where there are 2 stop lines, one for motor vehicles and then one for cyclists, would the car have to have completely passed both?

For cars / vans / trucks etc, the first stop line is the stop line.

For pedal cycles, the second / advanced stop line is the stop line.

If any part of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle) has already proceeded beyond the first stop line, the second stop line becomes the stop line.

Simply put - stop on red at the first line if you're in a car. If you creep over the first stop line on green and the light changes to red, it would be an offence if any part of your vehicle was to then proceed beyond the second stop line.

So in answer to your question - yes, both stop lines would need to have been passed completely before the light changed to red.