Police federation attack scameras.
Discussion
Police 'face speed camera flak'
Police say speed cameras lack an officer's 'power of discretion'
Rank-and-file police have attacked speed cameras for destroying the relationship between officers and law-abiding citizens.
The Police Federation, which represents 136,000 officers, said officers are facing a backlash over the cameras.
"There is a general perception that it is a money-making exercise," federation chairman Jan Berry said.
The federation backs accident blackspot cameras, but wants an audit to assess if all existing cameras are needed.
The government says around 4,500 speed cameras are in operation, and Home Office figures show the number of fines rose from 1.1 million to 1.5 million between 2001 and 2002.
'Unpaid fines'
"We want some assurances that the cameras are being put in for safety issues. The government is going to have to demonstrate that in some way," Mrs Berry said.
"I believe some cameras are there as a revenue generator. I think police get the blame for that.
I don't think you can remove the human element from policing and replace it with a camera
Police Federation chairman Jan Berry
"I think it has been quite destructive - middle England will continue to pay their fines but others don't.
"There are concerns that large numbers of unpaid speeding tickets are being written off without any follow up."
The AA Motoring Trust's Andrew Howard said: "Maintaining public support for traffic policing is essential.
"While three quarters of drivers still support speed cameras, there has been growing concern that revenue raising has become the reason why many cameras are placed where they are."
Officer numbers
The speed camera boom has been accompanied by a fall in traffic officer numbers.
But the Police Federation argues that speed cameras lack an officer's power of discretion.
"I don't think you can remove the human element from policing and replace it with a camera," Mrs Berry said.
"If you are going 35mph at 2am in a 30mph area and there is no other traffic on the road it would be extremely unusual for an officer to give you a ticket - a speed camera doesn't have that discretion."
The Police Federation also points out that cameras do not deter drink drivers, nor can they detect underage or uninsured drivers, those not wearing seatbelts, without a licence or in possession of drugs or guns.
"Technology is brilliant but it has to be used in a balanced way," Mrs Berry said.
Flippin 'eck!!
tell the
Hello!
About time as well plods. Mind you they are asking the government to assure them that camera are being placed purely on safety grounds.
Who the hell tells the government about accidents?
The Police!!
C'mon plod guys, you know it's all a scam, just tell the scameras publicly that you will not have anything to do with them.
tell the
Hello!
About time as well plods. Mind you they are asking the government to assure them that camera are being placed purely on safety grounds.
Who the hell tells the government about accidents?
The Police!!
C'mon plod guys, you know it's all a scam, just tell the scameras publicly that you will not have anything to do with them.
tja said:
tide. Turning?
Slowly, ever so slowly...but it *will* turn, I can see no way of anyone stopping it.
The scamera partnership will fall, and the more lies and damned statistics they throw at us, the harder their fall will be.
then all the scameraship workers will have to get down off their 'holier than thou' pedistalls and go back to work in mcdonalds or back to the call center they crawled out from.
cortinaman said:
hertsbiker said:
tide. Turning?
Slowly, ever so slowly...but it *will* turn, I can see no way of anyone stopping it.
The scamera partnership will fall, and the more lies and damned statistics they throw at us, the harder their fall will be.
then all the scameraship workers will have to get down off their 'holier than thou' pedistalls and go back to work in mcdonalds or back to the call center they crawled out from.
They mostly havent got the brains to pass the Muck Donalds Iq test......
What struck me Deltaf, in reading this was, 7 or 8 years ago chatting with a policeman friend, I remarked that I would NOT like to have his job in ten years time.
This was because I could see which way things were going, and that young kids at the time had NO respect for anyone INCLUDING the Police.
These "kids" are now young men, and still have the same attitude. When faced with a Policeman or Police car they are as likely to "floor the accelerator" or "pull a knife" or even "pull a gun." And this is getting worse.
During this time the Police have I believe, lost control of the streets, through a mixture of underfunding and bad policies etc.
At the same time the ordinary law abiding person in their car has been persecuted by automated robots, and they too are losing respect for the police and the law.
I applaud the Police Federation for having the guts to say what WE have all felt for sometime, that the policies are wrong and I believe for political purposes NOT safety.
To any of our Police PH'ers on here, I would say; you need to get control of the streets again by your presence, in place of robots bloody quick, before it's too late!
This was because I could see which way things were going, and that young kids at the time had NO respect for anyone INCLUDING the Police.
These "kids" are now young men, and still have the same attitude. When faced with a Policeman or Police car they are as likely to "floor the accelerator" or "pull a knife" or even "pull a gun." And this is getting worse.
During this time the Police have I believe, lost control of the streets, through a mixture of underfunding and bad policies etc.
At the same time the ordinary law abiding person in their car has been persecuted by automated robots, and they too are losing respect for the police and the law.
I applaud the Police Federation for having the guts to say what WE have all felt for sometime, that the policies are wrong and I believe for political purposes NOT safety.
To any of our Police PH'ers on here, I would say; you need to get control of the streets again by your presence, in place of robots bloody quick, before it's too late!
I think the root cause behind the statement is realising that the police are failing to be seen as community helpers. I have had a chat to a WPC about this.
The top brass are concerned about our views which were eloquently voiced to me by a mate.
"When was the last time that you communicated with a policeman......." and "The public no longer see policemen, they see police cars".
Well, the last 3 times I have been involved with the police, one was a producer, one for speeding and one was when my car had been written off by punks and the policeman said "I don't want to know".
I like to give everyone a chance and so err before making big generalisations. But, the publics view generally says "Oh shit, there's a cop, are my tyres bald, is my hair right, how are they going to screw me, please don't pull me over....." I see a policeman and think "Please, not me!" even though I am doing nothing wrong. It's a sort of victimisation and subsequent alienation of the public. All because of bloody accountability and "Proof" of achievement, nice Mr Blair proving value and quality for the public.
I believe that the top brass are trying to rectify this and speed cameras are the pus in the zit so to speak. The fetid core of a rotten mountain of bureocracy and facsism. Sadly, my grasp of police being nowhere when I need them but double ready to bust my ass leads me to believe less in their credibility as fellow humans.
Sorry to be a negative punk and include all the good cops in my horrible generalisation.........It's my bent on the truth though.
Similar setup in education which is my game.
The top brass are concerned about our views which were eloquently voiced to me by a mate.
"When was the last time that you communicated with a policeman......." and "The public no longer see policemen, they see police cars".
Well, the last 3 times I have been involved with the police, one was a producer, one for speeding and one was when my car had been written off by punks and the policeman said "I don't want to know".
I like to give everyone a chance and so err before making big generalisations. But, the publics view generally says "Oh shit, there's a cop, are my tyres bald, is my hair right, how are they going to screw me, please don't pull me over....." I see a policeman and think "Please, not me!" even though I am doing nothing wrong. It's a sort of victimisation and subsequent alienation of the public. All because of bloody accountability and "Proof" of achievement, nice Mr Blair proving value and quality for the public.
I believe that the top brass are trying to rectify this and speed cameras are the pus in the zit so to speak. The fetid core of a rotten mountain of bureocracy and facsism. Sadly, my grasp of police being nowhere when I need them but double ready to bust my ass leads me to believe less in their credibility as fellow humans.
Sorry to be a negative punk and include all the good cops in my horrible generalisation.........It's my bent on the truth though.
Similar setup in education which is my game.
What worries ME is, even if all the Police chiefs in the country, decided that because of public hostility, they are going to drop out of involvement with the "scammera pratnerships." They have now become, a Self-financing, self-regulating, semi-private (at the moment)force and they certainly don't have any public accountibility.
The tide might be turning, but remember it ebbs and floods twice a day.
Political expediency comes to mind. I wouldn't put it past Bliar's lot to "lean" on CCs (etc.) to make such statements so as to support the worthless bunch of spineless shysters who pass themselves off as a government - Streaky
Political expediency comes to mind. I wouldn't put it past Bliar's lot to "lean" on CCs (etc.) to make such statements so as to support the worthless bunch of spineless shysters who pass themselves off as a government - Streaky
streaky said:
The tide might be turning, but remember it ebbs and floods twice a day.
Political expediency comes to mind. I wouldn't put it past Bliar's lot to "lean" on CCs (etc.) to make such statements so as to support the worthless bunch of spineless shysters who pass themselves off as a government - Streaky
This lot - use Stasi techniques? Never!!!!
Und puggit - they were 100% certain that u-no-wots existed in Iraq! (Und still are!) As their being wrong or not quite correct??? -- Bliar's mob and the pet chimp of a CC? NEVER!
Bin ja zynisch und bissig!
Kneegrow - On reading your post, my initial thought was that I was sorry that you felt so negative, and that we (BiB) had let you down.
On reflection, maybe it isn't such a negative post... I've only been a PHer for a couple of weeks now, and while I (going out on a limb here) don't disagree with all speed enforcement, I can see what a negative effect the cameras are having on the public.
You may be interested to know that our already diluted traffic department was recently slashed by over 50%, and then effectively by another 30% a short while after that. PHers in general seem to be saying that there are less and less traffic officers out there. Ialready know this, as in our area, the staffing level for traffic is ONE (yes, you read it correctly - ONE) officer on core cover at any time. Because of the shift pattern, there may, on occasion, be an overlap of anything up to five or so hours where there are two on duty.
I think there is a place for (accountable, researched, balanced and appropriate) speed enforcement, but this is merely the latest turn in the continuing decline of traffic departments. If I remember correctly, we are now down to about 10% of what we used to be 10-12 years ago.
On reflection, maybe it isn't such a negative post... I've only been a PHer for a couple of weeks now, and while I (going out on a limb here) don't disagree with all speed enforcement, I can see what a negative effect the cameras are having on the public.
You may be interested to know that our already diluted traffic department was recently slashed by over 50%, and then effectively by another 30% a short while after that. PHers in general seem to be saying that there are less and less traffic officers out there. Ialready know this, as in our area, the staffing level for traffic is ONE (yes, you read it correctly - ONE) officer on core cover at any time. Because of the shift pattern, there may, on occasion, be an overlap of anything up to five or so hours where there are two on duty.
I think there is a place for (accountable, researched, balanced and appropriate) speed enforcement, but this is merely the latest turn in the continuing decline of traffic departments. If I remember correctly, we are now down to about 10% of what we used to be 10-12 years ago.
It's worth noting by us NON-BiB PH'ers that the Police Federation is after all, their "trade union," reflecting we presume it's members views.
I confess I don't know the organisational make up of the Police Federation. Is it a "true" and free acting trade union, or does it have a controlling influence at it's head by the top brass? perhaps someone would let us know, it would help us NON-BiB's to understand a little better.
If it is a free acting trade union, I would suspect that any "public" statement made could be quite muted, compared to that which is being said "in private."
It is perhaps, an encourageing sign, maybe 75% of Policemen (and women, sorry ladies) are in agreement with us motorists! I for one, hope so. What do our PH BiB's think?
I confess I don't know the organisational make up of the Police Federation. Is it a "true" and free acting trade union, or does it have a controlling influence at it's head by the top brass? perhaps someone would let us know, it would help us NON-BiB's to understand a little better.
If it is a free acting trade union, I would suspect that any "public" statement made could be quite muted, compared to that which is being said "in private."
It is perhaps, an encourageing sign, maybe 75% of Policemen (and women, sorry ladies) are in agreement with us motorists! I for one, hope so. What do our PH BiB's think?
8Pack said:
It's worth noting by us NON-BiB PH'ers that the Police Federation is after all, their "trade union," reflecting we presume it's members views.
I confess I don't know the organisational make up of the Police Federation. Is it a "true" and free acting trade union, or does it have a controlling influence at it's head by the top brass? perhaps someone would let us know, it would help us NON-BiB's to understand a little better.
The federation represents the rank and file officers up to and including Chief Inspector.
It is not as such a 'free standing Union' and its power is somewhat limited in relation to other trades unions and staff associations.
The controlling influence is that of the people that it represents. It is led by an elected chair which at the the moment is Jan Berry. I am not certain as to her particular rank but she must be somewhere between PC and Chief Inspector.
The Superintendants Association are responsible for that rank and ACPO for those above.
Basically, the Federation are there to assist when an officer is in trouble. They provide legal assistance and its associated costs to officers that are accused of discipline and in some cases criminal acts.
They provide other benefits like savings plans and also advice through legal channels on lots of non police type situations.
When it comes to looking after the working and finacial interests of the people it represents, it is basically a 'toothless lion'. It roars a lot and then rolls over without biting back!
8pack said:
If it is a free acting trade union, I would suspect that any "public" statement made could be quite muted, compared to that which is being said "in private."
It is perhaps, an encourageing sign, maybe 75% of Policemen (and women, sorry ladies) are in agreement with us motorists! I for one, hope so. What do our PH BiB's think?
Make no mistake. The use of speed cameras and detector vans is loathed by most of the officers I know. There are inevitably a minority who do not but I and other officers know why they are so prevalent and understand the need for them in certain areas!
They are a monumental pain in the arse when on duty and a personal danger when on/off duty.
Most Police officers are drivers of private cars. Most would prefer not to receive NIP's. This is exactly the same sentiments as those who are not in uniform!
gone said:
Make no mistake. The use of speed cameras and detector vans is loathed by most of the officers I know. There are inevitably a minority who do not but I and other officers know why they are so prevalent and understand the need for them in certain areas!
They are loathed by everyone I know - including my relative BiBs!
They are only liked by Prats who see chance to make money, create Noo Labia non-jobs, break into politics, like seeing themselves on the telly and object to any form of criticism constructive or otherwise - eh - Aunty M? and Dick?
, and those who do not even drive! Come to LanCASH£££re, where they are everywhere they should not be and nowhere where they should be!
Cover up your speedo as you "feel what speed you are doing and thus have no problem!"
Bet you would 'ave desk job for a while afterwards!
gone said:
They are a monumental pain in the arse when on duty and a personal danger when on/off duty.
Most Police officers are drivers of private cars. Most would prefer not to receive NIP's. This is exactly the same sentiments as those who are not in uniform!
Ach! Liebchen! But what about that super-duper training you get. You know the one which makes you "feel your speed" without need to check it as constant in scam city!
(And the one that lets you race at over the ton to unexploded donuts via the hard shoulder!)
Besides you once told me that since you drive ever so fast to unexploded donuts whilst on duty - you find it ever so--oo-oo-ho relaxing to tootle around at average milk-float speeds when in private!
So how come "personal danger" - unless you are likely to get done for ..... gasp! .... NO! Going toooooo slow!
err, 
Thanks for your comments Gone, sounds like a pretty standard Trade Union set up, with the benifits for it's members an' all. Glad to know that it isn't "leant on" from above. More power to their elbow, I say! I think they have a right to speak out.
The problem, as I see it goes back many years. Back to the days of mass unemployment, closed factories and industries closed for ever. None of the aforsaid, pay taxes.
After these had gone,we could no longer support our nationised industries, and they had to be privatised, more closures, more unemployment, less tax income, more social support needed. Tax paying workers turned into "social scroungers" by our own government. Shipbuilding, mines, steel, heavy engineering all gone, we can't even build our own railway trains anymore, we have to buy them from elsewhere! I could go on but I'd better stop here.
How does this fit in with the Police Service? Despite what we all think, the government does not now receive enough income to fund all these things, and so EVERYTHING has to become a private, self funding industry. NHS, WATER, GAS, ELECTRICITY, VARIOUS GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES, DVLA, LICENCING AGENCY< Etc Etc Etc.
The Police have NOT been left out in this, as I'm sure you are aware. How many police functions have been "OUTSOURCED" over the years? We are now entering the era of privatised road policing, with scamera partnerships making their own rules as they go along, lowering speed limits when the revenue is not enough. As they gain in strength we shall see less real Policemen about our roads.
The technology is there now to read EVERY car numberplate which passes a certain point, add to this "privatised Toll roads," ANPR, Camera's and you are beginning to get a complete system of private road policing.
Is this REALLY happening Gone? Or am I REALLY paranoid?
>> Edited by 8Pack on Sunday 16th May 00:41
The problem, as I see it goes back many years. Back to the days of mass unemployment, closed factories and industries closed for ever. None of the aforsaid, pay taxes.
After these had gone,we could no longer support our nationised industries, and they had to be privatised, more closures, more unemployment, less tax income, more social support needed. Tax paying workers turned into "social scroungers" by our own government. Shipbuilding, mines, steel, heavy engineering all gone, we can't even build our own railway trains anymore, we have to buy them from elsewhere! I could go on but I'd better stop here.
How does this fit in with the Police Service? Despite what we all think, the government does not now receive enough income to fund all these things, and so EVERYTHING has to become a private, self funding industry. NHS, WATER, GAS, ELECTRICITY, VARIOUS GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES, DVLA, LICENCING AGENCY< Etc Etc Etc.
The Police have NOT been left out in this, as I'm sure you are aware. How many police functions have been "OUTSOURCED" over the years? We are now entering the era of privatised road policing, with scamera partnerships making their own rules as they go along, lowering speed limits when the revenue is not enough. As they gain in strength we shall see less real Policemen about our roads.
The technology is there now to read EVERY car numberplate which passes a certain point, add to this "privatised Toll roads," ANPR, Camera's and you are beginning to get a complete system of private road policing.
Is this REALLY happening Gone? Or am I REALLY paranoid?
>> Edited by 8Pack on Sunday 16th May 00:41
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