First Track Day - Leather Seats and Helmet/HANS?

[rotorwings]

<Please excuse my ignorance as I have never taken any car on a track before, used a motor racing helmet, or HANS device.>

I am looking at soon doing my first track day (including purchasing helmet and HANS) and was wondering if there is enough room to use a helmet with a HANS device together with the leather seats?

Would this push my head too far forward?

I'm 180cm (5'11" ish). Lowered floors, SV, and the 4 point harness shoulder straps mount about an inch lower than my shoulders onto the chassis (which I understand is important for a HANS).

Help or advise appreciated.

[BertBert]

My advice is don't use a Hans. You need to be very sure that the harnesses are set up for it and have the right Hans and you need really need to be in a rigid seat.

There is only a 4pt harness. If I wanted to increase safety, I'd get a 6pt one.

It's a track day. Your first time out. I'd say you are going to be fine.

Bert

[fergus]

BertBert said:

My advice is don't use a Hans. You need to be very sure that the harnesses are set up for it and have the right Hans and you need really need to be in a rigid seat.

There is only a 4pt harness. If I wanted to increase safety, I'd get a 6pt one.

+1. If you have an accident to warrant the need of a HANS device on a trackday, there is a higher risk of "submarining" (sliding under the lap belt) of a 4 pt harness than a 6pt setup where you run a crotch strap to prevent this. Also, as BB says, without a solid seat, you won't be able to get the belts tight enough to keep a HANS in place should it be required in earnest....

[Aeroscreens]

With leather seats and the head rest in the normal position you may find that wearing a helmet pushes your head forward. A usual solution is to reverse the head rest.

[rotorwings]

Excellent tip with the reversing of the headrest. Like all good tips/ideas, it seems obvious in hindsight

Because I have the leather seats, this gives me no option for a 6-point harness, correct?

I'm very keen to use a HANS device after recently hearing the details of an accident where such a device may have made all the (life and death) difference.
Even if the benefit is reduced when using the leather seats (as apposed to hard shell seats) I am still keen to use one. As long as I am not increasing any dangers.

It seems to me that using a 4+ point harness and a helmet would increase the risk of a severe whiplash injury in an accident as the head now weighs more and the belts have essentially no give in them.

[DCL]

The main risk is that one belt slips off the HANS device, either before or during the accident. You then have rotational forces on the head. The spacing of the belts behind the seat is critical and the standard Caterham seat belt positions are too far apart. There are other Hybrid HANS devices that take their support from the body. That would be my recommendation.

[framerateuk]

rotorwings said:

Because I have the leather seats, this gives me no option for a 6-point harness, correct?

You could pass the crotch straps between the seat cushion and the back, but you'd need to have the straps mounted to the chassis.

I have a 6 point harness on mine, but I'm only using the 4 point straps at the moment as I need to get the others mounted- a job for the winter I think.

[tin duck dave]

You can use a 6 point harness with leather seats - crotch straps secure to mounting points by bulkhead and straps can be passed through between backrest and seat base and you sit on the straps. Unless you have modified shoulder harness mounting points you should not use a hans device , the caterham standard mount points are too far apart. Exception is the simpson style device where mounting is to a harness strapped to your body so shoulder strap angle does not matter.

[BertBert]

rotorwings said:

I'm very keen to use a HANS device after recently hearing the details of an accident where such a device may have made all the (life and death) difference.
Even if the benefit is reduced when using the leather seats (as apposed to hard shell seats) I am still keen to use one. As long as I am not increasing any dangers.

It seems to me that using a 4+ point harness and a helmet would increase the risk of a severe whiplash injury in an accident as the head now weighs more and the belts have essentially no give in them.

To be really clear. DO NOT use the hans it will not make you safer. If you want to improve safety you must:

-get 6 pt harness
-get a cage
-get rigid seat
-make sure you have the right geometry of harness straps (angle of straps, distance apart and Hans angle) to use the hans.

The hans is more likely to get you killed than make you safer.

Berty

[Aeroscreens]

I would also add that really serious accidents are probably quite rare on trackdays and if it is your first then you really shouldn't be driving at 10/10ths anyway

[rotorwings]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. It seems that it is more complicated than I first anticipated.

I'll be getting some gloves and a helmet (with HANS mounts for the future) this week, which covers my required gear for the track day. It's a bit ironic that wearing a helmet will likely increase my risk of a severe neck injury in a frontal impact due to the additional weight on my head, so I will still be looking into a setup with some sort of crash neck support in the not-too-distant future.

Perhaps it's time to start looking at some Tillet seats. The B6F seems to be a good option. Hopefully i'll be able to sit in one on the day...

[Steve Campbell]

Track days are not race days. If it's run by a reputable company and there aren't too many fools about, the chance of car to car contact will be minimal. Most track days people are along to have fun with their pride and joy and unless the red mist comes down for someone, unlikely to create too many risks (given its a risky business being on a track).

In 10 years of track days I've never seen a car to car contact, and the only "offs" I've seen have always been related to single driver error...usually pushing too hard for the car or the driver capability or both.

Get a decent helmet, sort out a 6 point harness if you wish, then go along and enjoy it by driving the car like you would on a spirited road drive but with the knowledge nothing is coming the other way :-). You can build from there.

[anonymous-user]

Steve Campbell said:

Track days are not race days. If it's run by a reputable company and there aren't too many fools about, the chance of car to car contact will be minimal. Most track days people are along to have fun with their pride and joy and unless the red mist comes down for someone, unlikely to create too many risks (given its a risky business being on a track).

In 10 years of track days I've never seen a car to car contact, and the only "offs" I've seen have always been related to single driver error...usually pushing too hard for the car or the driver capability or both.

Get a decent helmet, sort out a 6 point harness if you wish, then go along and enjoy it by driving the car like you would on a spirited road drive but with the knowledge nothing is coming the other way :-). You can build from there.

Good advice.

[framerateuk]

Well said Steve, for what it's worth, I've never seen anyone use a HANS device on a track day.

[jeffw]

DCL said:

The main risk is that one belt slips off the HANS device, either before or during the accident. You then have rotational forces on the head. The spacing of the belts behind the seat is critical and the standard Caterham seat belt positions are too far apart. There are other Hybrid HANS devices that take their support from the body. That would be my recommendation.

Actually this isn't accurate. The Simpson FHR Hybrid has a rucksack type belt setup which is used to position the FHR shoulder yoke and not to restrain the helmet. All the restraint is done via the belts as per a normal HANS FHR.

I use a Simpson Hybrid FHR for Sprinting and have used it on track days (it feels odd not to have it in the car on once you've used one).

[DCL]

jeffw said:

Actually this isn't accurate. The Simpson FHR Hybrid has a rucksack type belt setup which is used to position the FHR shoulder yoke and not to restrain the helmet. All the restraint is done via the belts as per a normal HANS FHR.

I use a Simpson Hybrid FHR for Sprinting and have used it on track days (it feels odd not to have it in the car on once you've used one).

It depends how pedantic you want to be. The HANS is supported forward of the body and relies solely on the seat belt straps. The hybrid systems tend to use multiple support strategies. In fact, one of Simpson's selling point is that they are approved for 3 point harnesses. Generally they fit behind the body and get their support from the body rather than directly from the straps. Granted, the straps do pass over them to stop them riding up. But in the context of the OP question, it's a better option.

Simpson said:

The Hybrid Head Restraint is now the only Head Restraint Approved for 3-point harnesses that is also FIA approved. This allows Driving Instructors, Auto Manufacturing Test Engineers, and other cars with 3-point harnesses to have added protection.

Edited by DCL on Friday 26th June 16:25

[casbar]

rotorwings said:

Thanks for all the advice everyone. It seems that it is more complicated than I first anticipated.

I'll be getting some gloves and a helmet (with HANS mounts for the future) this week, which covers my required gear for the track day. It's a bit ironic that wearing a helmet will likely increase my risk of a severe neck injury in a frontal impact due to the additional weight on my head, so I will still be looking into a setup with some sort of crash neck support in the not-too-distant future.

Perhaps it's time to start looking at some Tillet seats. The B6F seems to be a good option. Hopefully i'll be able to sit in one on the day...

I used to do a lot of track days, until I hit the wall at Castle Combe, my fault had six point harness no issues at all. The one thing I would get are Tillet seats, when I started I had Caterham leather seats, but with all the side forces that come with being on the track, I used to end the day quite sore around the hips, and eventually the foam in the seat gave way. Fitted Tillets, they were brilliant and very comfortable.

Also get a good Helmet, Motorcycle will do, but I bought a Arai GP5K, which was very good, wasn't damaged in the wall incident and is now sat in a box in my house, as I've gone back to motorcycling.

[coppice]

I really don't want to appear at all negative and who can argue with concern about personal safety ? But ...well... by all means get HANS and so on but for a first track day you really don't need to go anywhere the limit in a Seven and yet you can still go very briskly by road standards. I suppose my point really boils down to the fact that if you are very concerned about safety on track do you have a similar level on the road- which has infinitely more hazards than a modestly brisk track day? I know I was petrified when I first set foot on track - but mainly because I was convinced the pit wall would be lined with people laughing at my pathetic pace.But it isn't like that at all- and the best thing is there are no distractions like oncoming traffic, pedestrians and horses to upset your zen like calm as you pick out apices.

Enjoy your day,don't worry and be safe .

[TonyGr]

I know this is an old thread but it has proved to be golden for us. About to take delivery of our second hand 7 and have a track day booked for November. I've been mulling over/obsessing about HANS harness etc but this thread has pretty much killed that off. We will grab a couple of track/club helmets from Damon Tweeks and take it from there. Thanks.

[Dr Evil]

i would add that the 4-point harnesses are not great, i suspect less secure than 3 point inertia reels. You cant tighten the 4 point properly, not without the lap belt riding up on your stomach which could cause worse injuries in a hard shunt. Moreover, the shoulder straps as such just are not tight enough to prevent sliding about or even off.

Get 6 point harnesses if possible; the crutch straps hold the lap belts in place on your pelvic bones and allow you to properly tighten the shoulder straps and prevent submarining.