Horrendous transmission noises in a selection of Caterham's
Discussion
I am now long in the tooth and probably past Caterham 7 motoring.
Some years ago in my youth I was fortunate enough to own a Lotus 7 with Holbay Lotus twin cam (around 105 BPH, one of the first TC1) the car had a solid rear axle and A frame with a 4 speed gearbox. The second car I owned was similar but had a 150 BPH Lotus twin cam engine; both cars drove very well with no excessive transmission noise or diff wine.
I recently had the desire to re live the Lotus experience and purchased a 140 BHP K series Caterham seven with De Dion rear axle and standard diff and 5 speed box. The car was about 17 years old with circa sub 30,000 miles and appeared in good condition. The transmission noise on the overrun was horrendous and sounded like a bag of nails in the transmission, but no whine. I thought that perhaps a new car would be better all round, so purchased a brand new 360 S SV Caterham. It very quickly became evident that the transmission was equally as bad as the old car, with additional panel chassis resonance. The backlash was excessive and lead to uncontrollable clonking and again terrible grinding noises on the overrun. The dealer merely replied that ‘they all do that’ which they should not!). All of this completely spoiled the driving pleasure of the car. I was subsequently told that I should have stuck with an older car which did not exhibit these characteristics. After selling the new car (and losing a substantial sum of money) I foolishly purchased a third Caterham, a 140 BHP roadsport (2006, 12,000 miles) with six speed box. This car, although did not have transmission backlash and chatter, had a diff/gearbox whine that was intolerable and unfortunately the car had to go.
There is no doubt that the driving experience (transmission problem noise apart) is wonderful, However I really wonder how people can put up with or accept the transmission noise aspects that as are now apparent, ( apart from on the track).
I do not see why a Caterham cannot be produced with the relatively low level of transmission noise which the earlier cars had. It may be that the current low powered Caterham’s are acceptable in this respect, but, drum brakes, skinny tyres and relatively low power output are not an option to some. Excuses like sitting on top of the diff and lack of sound insulation are not really appropriate as other ‘stripped out’ cars such as the Lotus Elise and other kit cars do not seem to suffer these problems.
Just my observations, others views would be welcome.
Some years ago in my youth I was fortunate enough to own a Lotus 7 with Holbay Lotus twin cam (around 105 BPH, one of the first TC1) the car had a solid rear axle and A frame with a 4 speed gearbox. The second car I owned was similar but had a 150 BPH Lotus twin cam engine; both cars drove very well with no excessive transmission noise or diff wine.
I recently had the desire to re live the Lotus experience and purchased a 140 BHP K series Caterham seven with De Dion rear axle and standard diff and 5 speed box. The car was about 17 years old with circa sub 30,000 miles and appeared in good condition. The transmission noise on the overrun was horrendous and sounded like a bag of nails in the transmission, but no whine. I thought that perhaps a new car would be better all round, so purchased a brand new 360 S SV Caterham. It very quickly became evident that the transmission was equally as bad as the old car, with additional panel chassis resonance. The backlash was excessive and lead to uncontrollable clonking and again terrible grinding noises on the overrun. The dealer merely replied that ‘they all do that’ which they should not!). All of this completely spoiled the driving pleasure of the car. I was subsequently told that I should have stuck with an older car which did not exhibit these characteristics. After selling the new car (and losing a substantial sum of money) I foolishly purchased a third Caterham, a 140 BHP roadsport (2006, 12,000 miles) with six speed box. This car, although did not have transmission backlash and chatter, had a diff/gearbox whine that was intolerable and unfortunately the car had to go.
There is no doubt that the driving experience (transmission problem noise apart) is wonderful, However I really wonder how people can put up with or accept the transmission noise aspects that as are now apparent, ( apart from on the track).
I do not see why a Caterham cannot be produced with the relatively low level of transmission noise which the earlier cars had. It may be that the current low powered Caterham’s are acceptable in this respect, but, drum brakes, skinny tyres and relatively low power output are not an option to some. Excuses like sitting on top of the diff and lack of sound insulation are not really appropriate as other ‘stripped out’ cars such as the Lotus Elise and other kit cars do not seem to suffer these problems.
Just my observations, others views would be welcome.
Your Lotus had a live axle, so the diff was isolated from the chassis.
Early DeDions were apparently OK although probably more noisy than live axle cars, but I have no personal experience. In my opinion, it all started to go wrong when brand new Ford Sierra differentials became scarce.
Rebuilt and remanufactured diffs appear to be variable in noise output, but then Caterham made it worse when they designed the metric chassis. If you ever try installing a Sierra diff in a metric chassis, you will find a club hammer is required to get the last bolt in as the bushes don't line up. Consequently, there is very little vibration isolation between diff and chassis.
I found my car disappointing when I finished it, and tried an older Ford diff rebuilt by a specialist. No better
. Now it is fine, because I fitted 3M Optime 2 ear defenders and intercom and they almost completely cut out the whine 
Early DeDions were apparently OK although probably more noisy than live axle cars, but I have no personal experience. In my opinion, it all started to go wrong when brand new Ford Sierra differentials became scarce.
Rebuilt and remanufactured diffs appear to be variable in noise output, but then Caterham made it worse when they designed the metric chassis. If you ever try installing a Sierra diff in a metric chassis, you will find a club hammer is required to get the last bolt in as the bushes don't line up. Consequently, there is very little vibration isolation between diff and chassis.
I found my car disappointing when I finished it, and tried an older Ford diff rebuilt by a specialist. No better
. Now it is fine, because I fitted 3M Optime 2 ear defenders and intercom and they almost completely cut out the whine I think you have hit the nail on the head, isolating the diff from the chassis is probably the answer, all they have to do now is find a way of doing it again! The ear defenders are a good idea, I did try the old fashioned ear plugs but seemed to make the situation worse; but although your solution does the job, it would be nice if Caterham could solve the problem mechanically or by design There is also the problem of the backlash and the clonking which is difficult to avoid even with very careful clutch control in heavy traffic.
Have to agree. I was all set on building a new Caterham. But I've tried 3 and all disappointed in the transmission noise department. I remember when I built my last live axled one 20 years or so being quite amazed that it felt nothing like as crude as I expected. Sophisticated might be stretching a point, but certainly much more impressive than the new cars in that respect.
No doubt that the re-manufactured Sierra diffs are poor, but you can find good OE ford diffs that are quiet. But I think the main issue is the isolation from the transmission noise, and I am on Caterhams side for this.
You could quite easily improve it, but that would just interfere with the driving experience. The last thing you want for a light car is the majority of the car's weight moving around around on floppy rubber mounts. The backlash is no worse than any other car (jack your daily drive up and try it), it's just that you notice the clonk that would be isolated out on other cars.
The whole point of a Caterham is that it connects you to driving experience, and the noise vibration and ride are all part of that. It is also amazing how quickly you become accustomed to all the noises and after a while they just disappear.
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You could quite easily improve it, but that would just interfere with the driving experience. The last thing you want for a light car is the majority of the car's weight moving around around on floppy rubber mounts. The backlash is no worse than any other car (jack your daily drive up and try it), it's just that you notice the clonk that would be isolated out on other cars.
The whole point of a Caterham is that it connects you to driving experience, and the noise vibration and ride are all part of that. It is also amazing how quickly you become accustomed to all the noises and after a while they just disappear.
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Yes, tgeyvall make a lot of noise one way or another. My diff clonks and chatters a bit doesn't whine noticeably.
I wear earplugs, which is advisable in any case with the level of exhaust and other noise, and they work fine for me. Cut out all the horrible noises but allow for the induction, exhaust and pop pop bang to be heard.
When I built the car, I too was amazed at the amount of backlash. I was told it's because of the LSD but I've had LSDs before with nothing like that backlash.
Btw, OP, why on earth did you buy those cars without trying them first?
I wear earplugs, which is advisable in any case with the level of exhaust and other noise, and they work fine for me. Cut out all the horrible noises but allow for the induction, exhaust and pop pop bang to be heard.
When I built the car, I too was amazed at the amount of backlash. I was told it's because of the LSD but I've had LSDs before with nothing like that backlash.
Btw, OP, why on earth did you buy those cars without trying them first?
Very interesting and useful comments to date.
The first car ( 17 year old 1.8 Roadsport) I did try but the terrible grinding noise on a trailing throttle only became apparent when pressing on. The new car, the dealer was not too keen on it being driven as it was a new car, however the roads were also wet and it was only driven a few hundred yards, ( and I was really hoping that the transmission would be Ok since it was a new car.) I really should have learnt my lesson by now, but the third car I drove only for a short time and seemed acceptable, however the whine became very apparent after a service and a longer drive home.
I think the fact that the older previous Sevens ( 105 and 150 bhp) with the solid rear axle were fine and was the experience I had thought I would be able to re live!.
The first car ( 17 year old 1.8 Roadsport) I did try but the terrible grinding noise on a trailing throttle only became apparent when pressing on. The new car, the dealer was not too keen on it being driven as it was a new car, however the roads were also wet and it was only driven a few hundred yards, ( and I was really hoping that the transmission would be Ok since it was a new car.) I really should have learnt my lesson by now, but the third car I drove only for a short time and seemed acceptable, however the whine became very apparent after a service and a longer drive home.
I think the fact that the older previous Sevens ( 105 and 150 bhp) with the solid rear axle were fine and was the experience I had thought I would be able to re live!.
Ah well, we live and learn! Hopefully.
But tell me, what is 'old in the tooth', in your case?
I'm no spring chicken but only built my R400 a couple of years ago to fill a few hours of retirement. I actually sold a 911, that I'd bought new a few years before as a retirement toy, to make way.
I wouldn't pick the 7 for a leisurely weekend wander or long distance but for an attention focussing hour or two, or track days especially, it's brilliant. I'd never have thought 220 bhp could be so much fun!!
But tell me, what is 'old in the tooth', in your case?
I'm no spring chicken but only built my R400 a couple of years ago to fill a few hours of retirement. I actually sold a 911, that I'd bought new a few years before as a retirement toy, to make way.
I wouldn't pick the 7 for a leisurely weekend wander or long distance but for an attention focussing hour or two, or track days especially, it's brilliant. I'd never have thought 220 bhp could be so much fun!!
To fill in a gap I am now 70 years old and bought my first two cars with the solid axle at 30 !
The right foot does solve a lot of problems, it is just those times when stuck in slow moving traffic and on and off the throttle, or really hammering it and backing off between corners.
Many of you have obviously found the solution with ear plugs, ( but it would add to the driving experience , at least on the road) if some of the noise could be sorted
The right foot does solve a lot of problems, it is just those times when stuck in slow moving traffic and on and off the throttle, or really hammering it and backing off between corners.
Many of you have obviously found the solution with ear plugs, ( but it would add to the driving experience , at least on the road) if some of the noise could be sorted
Just as a matter of interest...When I built mine, 2010 sigma roadsport De Dion, it was very noisy so I took out the top bolt, drilled through the bushes and diff in position to align it all properly and take out the bush preload, turned the crown wheel in 6 notches and filled it with Red Line heavy oil... 27,000 miles of quiet, reliable, motoring later no problems....p.s. I`m the same age and still quicker than the kids!
Tom Arundel said:
Just as a matter of interest...When I built mine, 2010 sigma roadsport De Dion, it was very noisy so I took out the top bolt, drilled through the bushes and diff in position to align it all properly and take out the bush preload, turned the crown wheel in 6 notches and filled it with Red Line heavy oil... 27,000 miles of quiet, reliable, motoring later no problems....p.s. I`m the same age and still quicker than the kids!
Which Redline oil are you using Tom?
Tom,
I think that's great you have solved the problem, must be great to be able to make good progress with a quiet transmission.
If the problem is as common as it appears to be, instead of dealers saying ',they all do that sir' why don't they apply Toms's fix to the cars, it would help a lot of drivers suffering with the problem, ( some owners might not have the technical knowledge that Tom has.) I know some say that the noises are part of the experience but not for everyone!
I think that's great you have solved the problem, must be great to be able to make good progress with a quiet transmission.
If the problem is as common as it appears to be, instead of dealers saying ',they all do that sir' why don't they apply Toms's fix to the cars, it would help a lot of drivers suffering with the problem, ( some owners might not have the technical knowledge that Tom has.) I know some say that the noises are part of the experience but not for everyone!
Roblot said:
Tom,
I think that's great you have solved the problem, must be great to be able to make good progress with a quiet transmission.
If the problem is as common as it appears to be, instead of dealers saying ',they all do that sir' why don't they apply Toms's fix to the cars, it would help a lot of drivers suffering with the problem, ( some owners might not have the technical knowledge that Tom has.) I know some say that the noises are part of the experience but not for everyone!
I would agree with that but wonder if Tom's solution would work everywhere? Is your diff the BMW one Tom? Presumably not LSD? (I'm told that some of the chattering is down to the plates in the LSD.I think that's great you have solved the problem, must be great to be able to make good progress with a quiet transmission.
If the problem is as common as it appears to be, instead of dealers saying ',they all do that sir' why don't they apply Toms's fix to the cars, it would help a lot of drivers suffering with the problem, ( some owners might not have the technical knowledge that Tom has.) I know some say that the noises are part of the experience but not for everyone!
As for you Roblot, the cars you mention presumably didn't have LSD and the 360 would be the BMW diff, so Tom's solution might well have helped for you.
It would be interesting to know how exactly you make the adjustment to the CW, Tom.
REALIST123 said:
Roblot said:
Tom,
I think that's great you have solved the problem, must be great to be able to make good progress with a quiet transmission.
If the problem is as common as it appears to be, instead of dealers saying ',they all do that sir' why don't they apply Toms's fix to the cars, it would help a lot of drivers suffering with the problem, ( some owners might not have the technical knowledge that Tom has.) I know some say that the noises are part of the experience but not for everyone!
I would agree with that but wonder if Tom's solution would work everywhere? Is your diff the BMW one Tom? Presumably not LSD? (I'm told that some of the chattering is down to the plates in the LSD.I think that's great you have solved the problem, must be great to be able to make good progress with a quiet transmission.
If the problem is as common as it appears to be, instead of dealers saying ',they all do that sir' why don't they apply Toms's fix to the cars, it would help a lot of drivers suffering with the problem, ( some owners might not have the technical knowledge that Tom has.) I know some say that the noises are part of the experience but not for everyone!
As for you Roblot, the cars you mention presumably didn't have LSD and the 360 would be the BMW diff, so Tom's solution might well have helped for you.
It would be interesting to know how exactly you make the adjustment to the CW, Tom.
I had an original Ford diff rebuilt by Phil with a Titan plate LSD and I'm using his recommended oil. Great bloke, minimal backlash, but the 50-60mph whine was exactly the same as the open diff I replaced (ie, there wasn't much wrong with my first diff )
The LSD noises are there but not irritating, the whining can be very loud at some speed/load situations.
)The LSD noises are there but not irritating, the whining can be very loud at some speed/load situations.
I think the word is compromise.
I have a Titan LSD and 5 speed box, yes between 50-60mph it whines, yes it has backlash, but when on track the car comes alive and when the LSD powers you out of the corner and the next gear slots home who cares about whining and backlash.
The Caterham will handle better than most other cars past and present,(in the dry) with no driver aids, I am quite happy to compromise a bit of noise in aid to have such a great handling car.
I have a Titan LSD and 5 speed box, yes between 50-60mph it whines, yes it has backlash, but when on track the car comes alive and when the LSD powers you out of the corner and the next gear slots home who cares about whining and backlash.
The Caterham will handle better than most other cars past and present,(in the dry) with no driver aids, I am quite happy to compromise a bit of noise in aid to have such a great handling car.
My 1994 de Dion car hasn't ever been noisey in the transmission dept. Road and race fitted an ap suretrac lsd which again made no difference to the noise, just great 🍩! I think maybe you should look for an older car in good order. Mine is a zetec (now) breathing through carbs and gives modern reliability with a bit of old school character. Great fun! Don't give up, and do make sure you have proper ride or drive before you buy this time! Good luck.
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