Horrendous transmission noises in a selection of Caterham's
Discussion
Have you found where to get numbers for pinion bearing preload and backlash measurements then? I wouldn't mind them for the Sierra diff.
(I wonder if the info would be in a Haynes Sierra manual?)
I doubt a garage is going to go through the procedure diligently, as it would just take too much time and would cost too much on an hourly basis, so no one is going to do it better than yourself.
Hence the sloppiness it seems they're assembled with.
A good selection of shims and some prussian blue will give you hours of fun getting it right in your shed
(I wonder if the info would be in a Haynes Sierra manual?)
I doubt a garage is going to go through the procedure diligently, as it would just take too much time and would cost too much on an hourly basis, so no one is going to do it better than yourself.
Hence the sloppiness it seems they're assembled with.
A good selection of shims and some prussian blue will give you hours of fun getting it right in your shed
My old employer was annoyed when his newly reconditioned exchange axle turned out to be worse than the one it replaced.
We bought a manual and a few special tools and I rebuilt the axle to proper factory spec, it took a while and a couple of collapsible spacers but the result was an axle that lasted well over 100,000 miles.
I later rebuilt my Lotus diff too, once you've got the hang of it it’s pretty straight forward and the tools whilst not cheap still cost less than a suspect rebuilt axle.
We bought a manual and a few special tools and I rebuilt the axle to proper factory spec, it took a while and a couple of collapsible spacers but the result was an axle that lasted well over 100,000 miles.
I later rebuilt my Lotus diff too, once you've got the hang of it it’s pretty straight forward and the tools whilst not cheap still cost less than a suspect rebuilt axle.
I used a fisherman's scale, some string and a calculator for the pinion torque to turn but borrowed a set of slip gauges from a toolmaker to easily check the pinion height.
This was thirty years ago on atlas and salisbury axles but I recently watched a well regarded “expert” set up a friends Transit rear axle by feel.
All I will say is that it wasn't up to my standards and still clunked like crazy, wasn't cheap either!
This was thirty years ago on atlas and salisbury axles but I recently watched a well regarded “expert” set up a friends Transit rear axle by feel.
All I will say is that it wasn't up to my standards and still clunked like crazy, wasn't cheap either!
Well there were quite a few LSD options on Caterhams over the years I think.
It'll be interesting to see how my Quaife TBD is if I ever get my car up and running. I managed to buy one of a few brand new Sierra Diffs that Quaife had, (I think they had some cast IIRC? )with a TBD already installed. I'm wondering what sort of a job they did in putting it together...
My old K Series R300 had quite a bit of transmission wine from the Six speed box, and if you didn't concentrate with throttle control the diff would clunk. It also chattered on the over run, but that was definitely backlash and not the LSD. I have no idea which LSD Caterham fitted at the time.
It'll be interesting to see how my Quaife TBD is if I ever get my car up and running. I managed to buy one of a few brand new Sierra Diffs that Quaife had, (I think they had some cast IIRC? )with a TBD already installed. I'm wondering what sort of a job they did in putting it together...
My old K Series R300 had quite a bit of transmission wine from the Six speed box, and if you didn't concentrate with throttle control the diff would clunk. It also chattered on the over run, but that was definitely backlash and not the LSD. I have no idea which LSD Caterham fitted at the time.
The Quaife will be quieter and more reliable than the Titan LSD fitted to most things for some years now by Caterham but it’s not as good in use in many circumstances, especially on track where it can be an issue.
As you say, clunk and overrun chatter is down to CWP backlash but it doesn’t necessarily indicate that the clearance is wrong. Lightened flywheels can be the root of those things, increasing throttle sensitivity and allowing firing pulses to excite the chatter.
As you say, clunk and overrun chatter is down to CWP backlash but it doesn’t necessarily indicate that the clearance is wrong. Lightened flywheels can be the root of those things, increasing throttle sensitivity and allowing firing pulses to excite the chatter.
Yes I was aware the Quaif wasn't the best choice for track work, (don't like kerb hopping for one) but I have zero interest in driving around a track.
Although to be honest the noise didn't bother me on my R300.
The car I'm building now will probably have a lot more cacoohany of noises going on.
Although to be honest the noise didn't bother me on my R300.
The car I'm building now will probably have a lot more cacoohany of noises going on.
Well, I believe I've finally got to the root of the issue and I at last have a functioning car.
My diff was removed for the second time after a full rebuild by Phil at R and R didn't cure the tapping noise that seemed to emanate from the CWP. Phil and Olly did some work on it and it was replaced but still had the tapping noise. Out for a third time and back to R and R more close inspection and it's been assembled again and is waiting to be tested. Phil and Olly have been brilliant, but it seems damage was done when the Titan LSD disintegrated after 8000 miles.
Whilst they were doing that it was suggested that I talk to Steve at SPC, mainly to see if he had any advice to offer about what might be causing the noise because, according to common belief, he doesn't do the SPC LSD for the BMW 168 differential. So I rang Steve to find that he DOES make a version of his diff to suit the BMW!
In the end I've bitten the bullet and bought a new open diff from CC and had an SPC LSD fitted by Steve. (Did I mention that he DOES make a version of his diff to suit the BMW!)
If you speak to Steve he will tell you with some authority that the Titan LSD is the problem with these diffs, especially when you're putting 200bhp + through it. Apparently, it's not really big enough and the Belleville washers used in it operate between hardly any load to 100% deflection, I.e. flat. They're not designed to do that;they should operate between 15 and 75% full deflection (that's easily verified on line) and so they crack. The more torque they have to handle the sooner they crack. The plate material used in the Titan isn't the best either, again that seems to be commonly acknowledged in the diff industry.
The SPC diff uses molybdenum plates (like ZF) and bigger and correctly loaded Bellevilles. It has the reputation of being much stronger and quieter and better in operation than the Titan, will easily take the torque of the most powerful 7 and will last a long time. (Fit and forget has been used in its description)
So what's it like? Well, I've only done a couple of hundred miles so far but I find it silent, clunk free and it's definitely more effective than the Titan. Before, giving the car full throttle in lower gears would often result in 'fishtailing' if the road surface was less than perfect and would often set up a slide coming out of corners.
Not any more; give it full throttle out of a tight corner and it just rockets off in the direction you're pointing it. So far I haven't broken traction at all, and I've tried. It also seems to turn in easier as if it's not encouraging as much understeer as the Titan. That's hard to define, it just feels better, I have much more confidence in the car.
During this exercise, I've been informed by both CC and RR that the Titan diff does need regular inspection and maintenance and it's not unusual to find them failing at low mileages and causing other damage. I've gathered that regular checking of the preload and changing the oil to inspect for debris is very worthwhile.Steve has recommended, for me too with his diff, the fitting of a magnetic filler plug. I've done that, it should make inspection for debris that much easier.
The downside of all this is the cost. I've spent well over £3.5K sorting this, though I now have a fully rebuilt spare Titan assembly. The SPC LSD is a couple of hundred more than the Titan new, and not necessarily that much more than a full rebuild if the Titan breaks up in use. ( My rebuild was around £900 all in, it won't take many of them to pay back the investment if the SPC is all it's meant to be)
I would strongly recommend anyone who's having to consider having their Titan rebuilt to think about fitting an SPC instead. If it's all its cracked up to be, (and IME, other than longevity which I can't yet attest to, it is) it's the better option, IMO. Especially if they have over 200bhp or their Titan hasn't lasted as they expected it to.
My diff was removed for the second time after a full rebuild by Phil at R and R didn't cure the tapping noise that seemed to emanate from the CWP. Phil and Olly did some work on it and it was replaced but still had the tapping noise. Out for a third time and back to R and R more close inspection and it's been assembled again and is waiting to be tested. Phil and Olly have been brilliant, but it seems damage was done when the Titan LSD disintegrated after 8000 miles.
Whilst they were doing that it was suggested that I talk to Steve at SPC, mainly to see if he had any advice to offer about what might be causing the noise because, according to common belief, he doesn't do the SPC LSD for the BMW 168 differential. So I rang Steve to find that he DOES make a version of his diff to suit the BMW!
In the end I've bitten the bullet and bought a new open diff from CC and had an SPC LSD fitted by Steve. (Did I mention that he DOES make a version of his diff to suit the BMW!)
If you speak to Steve he will tell you with some authority that the Titan LSD is the problem with these diffs, especially when you're putting 200bhp + through it. Apparently, it's not really big enough and the Belleville washers used in it operate between hardly any load to 100% deflection, I.e. flat. They're not designed to do that;they should operate between 15 and 75% full deflection (that's easily verified on line) and so they crack. The more torque they have to handle the sooner they crack. The plate material used in the Titan isn't the best either, again that seems to be commonly acknowledged in the diff industry.
The SPC diff uses molybdenum plates (like ZF) and bigger and correctly loaded Bellevilles. It has the reputation of being much stronger and quieter and better in operation than the Titan, will easily take the torque of the most powerful 7 and will last a long time. (Fit and forget has been used in its description)
So what's it like? Well, I've only done a couple of hundred miles so far but I find it silent, clunk free and it's definitely more effective than the Titan. Before, giving the car full throttle in lower gears would often result in 'fishtailing' if the road surface was less than perfect and would often set up a slide coming out of corners.
Not any more; give it full throttle out of a tight corner and it just rockets off in the direction you're pointing it. So far I haven't broken traction at all, and I've tried. It also seems to turn in easier as if it's not encouraging as much understeer as the Titan. That's hard to define, it just feels better, I have much more confidence in the car.
During this exercise, I've been informed by both CC and RR that the Titan diff does need regular inspection and maintenance and it's not unusual to find them failing at low mileages and causing other damage. I've gathered that regular checking of the preload and changing the oil to inspect for debris is very worthwhile.Steve has recommended, for me too with his diff, the fitting of a magnetic filler plug. I've done that, it should make inspection for debris that much easier.
The downside of all this is the cost. I've spent well over £3.5K sorting this, though I now have a fully rebuilt spare Titan assembly. The SPC LSD is a couple of hundred more than the Titan new, and not necessarily that much more than a full rebuild if the Titan breaks up in use. ( My rebuild was around £900 all in, it won't take many of them to pay back the investment if the SPC is all it's meant to be)
I would strongly recommend anyone who's having to consider having their Titan rebuilt to think about fitting an SPC instead. If it's all its cracked up to be, (and IME, other than longevity which I can't yet attest to, it is) it's the better option, IMO. Especially if they have over 200bhp or their Titan hasn't lasted as they expected it to.
the av8er said:
Glad your persistence paid off.
If I wanted to fit this upgrade to my standard ford dif, any idea of cost ( if I remove and refit myself)..
I'm running about 200 hp
Hi av8er. The cost of the LSD is the same for both Ford and BMW, £1150 + VAT. Steve only charged me £100 + VAT to build it into my new open BMW diff, but I guess if there was more refurb work needed it would be more, so you’d save a fair bit if you can do it yourself.If I wanted to fit this upgrade to my standard ford dif, any idea of cost ( if I remove and refit myself)..
I'm running about 200 hp
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