caterham blackbird! tempted
Discussion
been quitely looking for a caterham as a bit of cool fast open top motoring, and few trackdays, to get a speed fix after selling gt3
any downsides or comments for buying a blackbird vs a r300/400
both bloody quick i imagine! but ant thing i should be aware of for a blackbird
cheers lots
any downsides or comments for buying a blackbird vs a r300/400
both bloody quick i imagine! but ant thing i should be aware of for a blackbird
cheers lots
a friend of mine has a Megabird (I know it's not quite the same thing)
it's insane, mindbogglingly fast, the scariest thing I've ever driven
however the bike clutch takes quite a bit of getting used to, and hillstarts can be a bit of problem
the sequntial gearbox is great when pressing on, however when driving in town traffic I'd prefer a traditional box
the car even compared to my crossflow is incredibly loud and driving on the motorway is a pain due to the noise and the extremely high revs of the engine (during normal motorway driving you are usually at 7-8000 revs)
it's a great track car, however for mostly road use I would choose somthing more civilized
for the time he has owned the car has been almost faultless, however they are known to require frequent gearbox rebuilds
it's insane, mindbogglingly fast, the scariest thing I've ever driven
however the bike clutch takes quite a bit of getting used to, and hillstarts can be a bit of problem
the sequntial gearbox is great when pressing on, however when driving in town traffic I'd prefer a traditional box
the car even compared to my crossflow is incredibly loud and driving on the motorway is a pain due to the noise and the extremely high revs of the engine (during normal motorway driving you are usually at 7-8000 revs)
it's a great track car, however for mostly road use I would choose somthing more civilized
for the time he has owned the car has been almost faultless, however they are known to require frequent gearbox rebuilds
Despite the prices people ask for Caterham Blackbirds, the Blackbird engine is not considered to be one of the better bike engines for a Bike Engined Car (BEC). Bike engines do not expect to stay vertical and be subjected to high lateral G, as in a car installation, so it's a bit hit and miss as to what works and what doesn't. Generally Blackbirds are condsidered to be at risk - even dry sumped - and the engines of choice are usually the fireblade, R1, and Busa. Additionally the blackbird gearbox has a lot more driveline shunt than a Busa, and has less power/torque.
I have quite a few friends that run BEC's and are passionate about them. So passionate I sold my Caterham Roadsports B car and initially made an offer on a Caterham Fireblade, but eventually bought a Hayabusa engined Fury, to contest the RGB champs. I ran it for a year or so and had endless problems with it to the extent I never raced it, the whole year was a write-off really. My personal conclusion was that a BEC is a very cost effective, exciting track car but needs a lot of ongoing mechanical work and knowledge and is best suited for track only, and for someone that likes to get their hands dirty - often! My car was never right, and that was with the supposedly unburstable busa. The noise is so great that silencing for trackdays is a pain and your neighbours will hate you, the batteries lose charge and don't allow for many starts even on a ful charge, cooling can be an issue, the clutches are really tricky to use on the road, and all the cars are to extent lashed together so things do go wrong more than with a typical Caterham, and fewer people will be able to sort them.
On the plus side the cars are blinding on track, but as a mostly trackday car, with some road use, I'd have an R300 any day (rather than an R400 with the VHPD K series).
I have quite a few friends that run BEC's and are passionate about them. So passionate I sold my Caterham Roadsports B car and initially made an offer on a Caterham Fireblade, but eventually bought a Hayabusa engined Fury, to contest the RGB champs. I ran it for a year or so and had endless problems with it to the extent I never raced it, the whole year was a write-off really. My personal conclusion was that a BEC is a very cost effective, exciting track car but needs a lot of ongoing mechanical work and knowledge and is best suited for track only, and for someone that likes to get their hands dirty - often! My car was never right, and that was with the supposedly unburstable busa. The noise is so great that silencing for trackdays is a pain and your neighbours will hate you, the batteries lose charge and don't allow for many starts even on a ful charge, cooling can be an issue, the clutches are really tricky to use on the road, and all the cars are to extent lashed together so things do go wrong more than with a typical Caterham, and fewer people will be able to sort them.
On the plus side the cars are blinding on track, but as a mostly trackday car, with some road use, I'd have an R300 any day (rather than an R400 with the VHPD K series).
Edited by jwyatt on Monday 4th September 16:58
Think you must have been a bit unlucky.......
Not a Caterham but blackbird powered, same engine clutch and gearbox for now 4 years, 1,000's road miles, loads a track days, some RGB races, Le,mans 2 up with camping gear and still going strong.
As stated above though the Bird engine as been known too go "pop" in a BEC, but dry sumping boot n braces the problem, an accusump seems ok too.
Not a Caterham but blackbird powered, same engine clutch and gearbox for now 4 years, 1,000's road miles, loads a track days, some RGB races, Le,mans 2 up with camping gear and still going strong.
As stated above though the Bird engine as been known too go "pop" in a BEC, but dry sumping boot n braces the problem, an accusump seems ok too.
I know of a few first hand that have gone pop, equally there are people who swear by them and think the noise BEC people make about them being a liability is a bit OTT. But it seems to me the Bird engine doesn't have particularly epic power/torque, reliability, or a smooth gearbox - it shunts more than say Suzuki boxes - plus it's quite rare and expensive as hell to buy. An R1 or GSXR-1000 seem better bets, and the Busa is still the "rolls royce" option for a car, it's so torquey. Buying a cheapish Caterham (say Roadsports A) then building it up from scratch - if you are looking for a "project" - might be a better bet than paying a fortune for a Cat Bird. Sadly, although he could, James Whiting wasn't interested in doing this for me when I considered upgrading my Cat. My impression was that the whole Caterham cottage-industry shuns the BEC concept.
Everything can blow - even my Busa broke a timing chain - but birds do seem more prone to oil surge issues. I'm no expert but I know people who are, including the guy who started the now-massive BEC list on Yahoo, I'm sure I can rope them in for a more technical discussion.
There was a company turning out Busa Caterhams at one point and they got a superb review in "Circuit Driver", saying they were infinitely better sorted than the Caterham Blackbird, but the two guys fell out. The techie is still out there somewhere, I used to have his mobile number - I was really tempted by a well-developed Cat Busa but lacked the money.
Everything can blow - even my Busa broke a timing chain - but birds do seem more prone to oil surge issues. I'm no expert but I know people who are, including the guy who started the now-massive BEC list on Yahoo, I'm sure I can rope them in for a more technical discussion.
There was a company turning out Busa Caterhams at one point and they got a superb review in "Circuit Driver", saying they were infinitely better sorted than the Caterham Blackbird, but the two guys fell out. The techie is still out there somewhere, I used to have his mobile number - I was really tempted by a well-developed Cat Busa but lacked the money.
Edited by jwyatt on Wednesday 6th September 11:01
I read with great interest the comments on Blackbird engines......
I am endeavouring to race a Caterham Blackbird in Australia and thus speak from experience in regard to the engines. This year I have had two major and identical engine failures and one early last year... I now know I am not unlucky - there is an issue and have tried numerous fixes. The car is fast but fragile !!!!!
jwyatt and Jon Ison - can you please email me at doncollyer@fastmail.fm such that can discuss more in depth your contacts and experiences to get to the bottom of the problem if possible ?
I am endeavouring to race a Caterham Blackbird in Australia and thus speak from experience in regard to the engines. This year I have had two major and identical engine failures and one early last year... I now know I am not unlucky - there is an issue and have tried numerous fixes. The car is fast but fragile !!!!!
jwyatt and Jon Ison - can you please email me at doncollyer@fastmail.fm such that can discuss more in depth your contacts and experiences to get to the bottom of the problem if possible ?
Got it in one !!!!!
This is the first time anyone I have spoken too (and there are many) has acknowledged the problem and especially noted the exact issue before I told of the failure cause.
Please provide more information on causes and importantly fixes.
Appreciate any assistance or knowledgable contacts you can offer.
Thanks
Don
This is the first time anyone I have spoken too (and there are many) has acknowledged the problem and especially noted the exact issue before I told of the failure cause.
Please provide more information on causes and importantly fixes.
Appreciate any assistance or knowledgable contacts you can offer.
Thanks
Don
My 1st question would be are you allowed any engine modifications in the class you are running ?
If so then there is something that can be done internally too help prevent this "common" failure.
Are you running a dry sump system ? Can you run one in your class of racing ?
What sump do you use ? Baffled ? A standard one cut down ?
Ever heard of the "accusump" ? I ran one for 3 years with no engine failures.
If so then there is something that can be done internally too help prevent this "common" failure.
Are you running a dry sump system ? Can you run one in your class of racing ?
What sump do you use ? Baffled ? A standard one cut down ?
Ever heard of the "accusump" ? I ran one for 3 years with no engine failures.
My car is standard Caterham Blackbird running Nova dry sump kit with Pace oil tank and scavenge pump. Ground clearance is a major issue especially as we run a low profile Dunlop slick - the current system fulfills that requirement but with sump guard/skid plate fitted!!!!
Modifications are allowed in the series in which I compete and especially those which allow reliability. Can the internal modification you mention be accomodated in my current system ?
Why does no. 3 run out of oil ? I have received many different answers and obviously still not answered.
I do not know of the "Accusump".
Again appreciate input.
Don
Modifications are allowed in the series in which I compete and especially those which allow reliability. Can the internal modification you mention be accomodated in my current system ?
Why does no. 3 run out of oil ? I have received many different answers and obviously still not answered.
I do not know of the "Accusump".
Again appreciate input.
Don
I would have too question the effectiveness of your dry sump system as without doubt your problems are oil starvation, maybe you could look at the position of the tank, the seal in between the sump pan and engine (usually a big "O" ring.
This failure only normally occurs when Blackbirds are run without a dry sump.
Why #3 big end ?
This shares an oil supply with the balancer shaft hence is the 1st too starve of oil when problems occur, if regulations allow this balance shaft can be removed, the oil way blocked and if taken a stage further gears on the crank can be machined off that drive the shaft, this reduces the engine weight considerably and gets rid of a lot of rotating mass, another plus is the engine "revs up" quicker not that it don't already but it picks up like a 600 would rather than a 1100.
Don't be afraid of this mod, it sounds drastic but its the 1st thing F1 sidecar racers used too do, (1000 cc limit now that's why I said used too do) same with all the off road racers over here, it does make for a more reliable engine, releases a bit of power and they pick up much quicker.
But, like I have already said without doubt your problem IS oil starvation, your dry sump system for whatever reason is not effective, during either corning, braking or acceleration for whatever reason you are not picking up oil from the tank, without getting too the bottom of that the problem will continue.
This failure only normally occurs when Blackbirds are run without a dry sump.
Why #3 big end ?
This shares an oil supply with the balancer shaft hence is the 1st too starve of oil when problems occur, if regulations allow this balance shaft can be removed, the oil way blocked and if taken a stage further gears on the crank can be machined off that drive the shaft, this reduces the engine weight considerably and gets rid of a lot of rotating mass, another plus is the engine "revs up" quicker not that it don't already but it picks up like a 600 would rather than a 1100.
Don't be afraid of this mod, it sounds drastic but its the 1st thing F1 sidecar racers used too do, (1000 cc limit now that's why I said used too do) same with all the off road racers over here, it does make for a more reliable engine, releases a bit of power and they pick up much quicker.
But, like I have already said without doubt your problem IS oil starvation, your dry sump system for whatever reason is not effective, during either corning, braking or acceleration for whatever reason you are not picking up oil from the tank, without getting too the bottom of that the problem will continue.
DAC007 said:
Jon
Thanks for the info. Agreed, oil starvation is the issue and have completed plenty of research and some other mods in trying to get to the bottom of the problem.
Don
Thanks for the info. Agreed, oil starvation is the issue and have completed plenty of research and some other mods in trying to get to the bottom of the problem.
Don
You have got too the bottom of the problem, the answers given on the Yahoo site should confirm it for you.
Your dry sump system is not working properly, its there too prevent oil starvation but your still getting it, any lack of oil will see #3 rod go 1st every time. your oil pick up should always be immersed in oil, it cant be for whatever reason, any chance of a pic of the installation particularly position and shape of oil tank ?
Jon
Agree with your comments - and I suppose that is why I am trying to find other people with these cars as I am keen to know the style of oil tank used and importantly mounting height in the car.
In my installation the bottom of the feed holes to the pickup in the sump is about 85 mm drop with the riser out of the sump into the inlet of the internal standard feed pump being approx. 40 mm - so in net terms bottoms of feed holes in external supply tank are say 45 mm above pump inlet. When fitting the sump to the engine new seals used to isolate the pump feed / inlet from the general sump area.
Another modification made relates to the pump feed from the oil tank - in the original installation there was one 12 mm dia. line feeding the 20 mm dia. internal pump inlet. Before the latest failure, and with considerable difficulty, managed to get another 12 mm dia. feed line to the pump inlet i.e. two 12 mm dia. lines now feeding in lieu of one previously...but clearly not a fix.
Engine now out of car so cannot get specific photos now but the overall sump system is that shown on Nova website.
Don
Agree with your comments - and I suppose that is why I am trying to find other people with these cars as I am keen to know the style of oil tank used and importantly mounting height in the car.
In my installation the bottom of the feed holes to the pickup in the sump is about 85 mm drop with the riser out of the sump into the inlet of the internal standard feed pump being approx. 40 mm - so in net terms bottoms of feed holes in external supply tank are say 45 mm above pump inlet. When fitting the sump to the engine new seals used to isolate the pump feed / inlet from the general sump area.
Another modification made relates to the pump feed from the oil tank - in the original installation there was one 12 mm dia. line feeding the 20 mm dia. internal pump inlet. Before the latest failure, and with considerable difficulty, managed to get another 12 mm dia. feed line to the pump inlet i.e. two 12 mm dia. lines now feeding in lieu of one previously...but clearly not a fix.
Engine now out of car so cannot get specific photos now but the overall sump system is that shown on Nova website.
Don
I had one for 3 years. My view would be:
Reliability
Once sorted absoluteley fine. Mine needed a larger than standard oil header tank fitted to keep the oil pressure up (and was dry sumped anyway). I forget what the exact reason for this was. Once done I did endless trackdays with only standard maintenance on the engine, and it never missed a beat.
Handling
Best handling caterham i'd ever driven, steering lighter, lovely.
Noise
Major major achilies heel. I asked before i bought mine whether it would be ok (used to have a cerbera). The answer was yes, but that is not the case. I spent a fortune on airboxes and exhausts to lower the noise, but it was always a problem and despite the car being fantastic on track I got fed up of being thrown off...
Clutch
Clunky but not a real issue for me.
Other stuff.
People say that blackbirds are 'impractical for roard use'. my view is that once you've decided to suffer the impracticalities of a caterham (on 99% of road journeys other than the magic 1%) any incremental issues of running a blackbird are more or less in significant.
hope this is helpful.
Ross.
Reliability
Once sorted absoluteley fine. Mine needed a larger than standard oil header tank fitted to keep the oil pressure up (and was dry sumped anyway). I forget what the exact reason for this was. Once done I did endless trackdays with only standard maintenance on the engine, and it never missed a beat.
Handling
Best handling caterham i'd ever driven, steering lighter, lovely.
Noise
Major major achilies heel. I asked before i bought mine whether it would be ok (used to have a cerbera). The answer was yes, but that is not the case. I spent a fortune on airboxes and exhausts to lower the noise, but it was always a problem and despite the car being fantastic on track I got fed up of being thrown off...
Clutch
Clunky but not a real issue for me.
Other stuff.
People say that blackbirds are 'impractical for roard use'. my view is that once you've decided to suffer the impracticalities of a caterham (on 99% of road journeys other than the magic 1%) any incremental issues of running a blackbird are more or less in significant.
hope this is helpful.
Ross.
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