is this a stupid purchase??? help
Discussion
FWIW, I tend to agree on the R400/R500 track thing.
Given a lot of practice in the 500 you may be able to edge out a 400 on some tracks. But for most people, I believe they'll generally be quicker in the 400 more of the time. It's simply less of a handful. I also think the lower powered car will encourage you to learn to drive better, rather than squirting on the power on the straights.
To that end, a nice track biased SL would still be a good move. The only thing that'll properly blitz you on good tracks is a more powerful 7.
And the car ruby/jackal refer to wasn't a walk away car (if it's the car I went with ruby to see a fair while ago
). It was a runaway very, very quickly car. Any model has its duffers and sadly for Mark that was one.
Given a lot of practice in the 500 you may be able to edge out a 400 on some tracks. But for most people, I believe they'll generally be quicker in the 400 more of the time. It's simply less of a handful. I also think the lower powered car will encourage you to learn to drive better, rather than squirting on the power on the straights.
To that end, a nice track biased SL would still be a good move. The only thing that'll properly blitz you on good tracks is a more powerful 7.
And the car ruby/jackal refer to wasn't a walk away car (if it's the car I went with ruby to see a fair while ago
). It was a runaway very, very quickly car. Any model has its duffers and sadly for Mark that was one.Andy, it was indeed that car...
Here's Nigel Bent's response - he isn't a PH member (yet), so mailed it to me...
"Right, this was indeed my previous car.
History: I wanted to go racing in a seven but I don't fit comfortably in a standard caterham - both length & breadth ! - so I needed an SV. The car needed to have an MOT to be eligible for the series I wanted to do so it had to start off as a road legal vehicle. I persuaded caterham to build me a road legal SV with full roll cage and an R500 engine. I ran it on the road for the first 500 miles, thereafter I only used it on track.
In addition to advertised models, Caterham will pretty much build a car to spec from their range of standard components. The possible variations are almost infinite. This car was factory built from standard components and therefore is a "factory built car". The engine upgrade was done by the factory approved engine shop - who built the original engine. The Evo engine was available as an upgrade or as an outright purchase. This car remains a factory car, IMHO.
It did a full season with SEMSEC at Lydden plus the odd race at Brands, Silverstone. The car was fully maintained by Hyperion. Halfway through the second season. we had the engine out to replace the clutch & I got the engine upgraded to EVO spec (2 litre, 250bhp) by Minister, the official caterham engine builder.
I then decided to do the European Masters series in a CSR so I sold the SV. The new owner converted it back to full road legal spec. Thereafter I've lost touch with the history.
re some of the comments:
Reliability: the engine did 1.5 race seasons without being rebuilt - it was fully checked as part of the winter refurb at the end of the first season. After the upgrade it did the rest of the second season and an endurance race in France without missing a beat. I don't know if the second owner had it rebuilt/refreshed - but it should come with a full service history (I wouldn't buy something like this without it). If it is looked after properly, including a periodic refresh, it should not be unreliable (look after the oil, get it hot before letting rip,etc). However if it breaks it will be expensive to rebuild to the same spec as it is a highly tuned race engine. Speak to Minister to find out approx rebuild costs if this is a concern. Note also there is a big (financial) difference between a periodic refresh (bearings, springs, guides, etc) and a rebuild 'cos something broke ! Also note that just about any K series engine will drop in, there's no obligation to keep it as an R500 Evo if the current engine does go pop.
Performance: this car is very quick, significantly quicker than an R400. There is alot of confusion about performance and a fair amount of mis-comparison. E.g. a 0-60 time is useful only if that is what you want, it is no guide to performance round a circuit. On track, some R500's underperform compared to a race spec R400 because they still have headlights and a windscreen and have not been properly set up. Tyres are also vital - R400 rear slicks were a good match for the performance of an R400 but they leave an R500 slightly "under-tyred". Take an R400 and an R500 with the right tyres, same aero package, same setup and same driver, then the R500 will be a little faster around a circuit but not by much. Both cars have the same braking ability and the same cornering limits. Top speed is virtually identical as it is based on aerodynamic considerations first, power comes second. Only in acceleration does the R500 have an advantage and some of this is negated on driveability as you do have to really rev the the engine to get the additional power and it can be tricky to use the power on corner exits. The R500e has yet more power but more importantly, it has a lot more torque and a bigger spread of torque. which makes it more driveable. For example, at Lydden in R500 spec, I used 2nd,3rd & 4th gears once racing; in R500e spec I just used 3rd & 4th. Fewer gear changes = better lap times.
Value: this is a unique car, so trying to value it is tricky. I can tell you it cost over £40k new and that's before the Evo conversion. (Please don't tell 'er indoors!)
Comparing it with other cars is not entirely helpful. So it really comes back to the old adage of "its worth what someone will pay for it". £25k is entirely justifiable but whether its worth that to an individual is something only that individual can answer.
One point I will add that is not obvious but well worth noting. The car has (used to have ?) a full Reverie carbon fibre air box and induction kit and a beautiful, light Raceo titanium silencer (repackable). This cut induction & exhaust noise right down - I was able to do track days at Bedford with no problem, which is more than can be said for most R400 & R500's. I don't know if the car still has these bits but there's probably £1.5k - £2k of value there alone.
Happy to answer any questions if I can, post or call me 07850 445 074
regards
Nigel"
Here's Nigel Bent's response - he isn't a PH member (yet), so mailed it to me...
"Right, this was indeed my previous car.
History: I wanted to go racing in a seven but I don't fit comfortably in a standard caterham - both length & breadth ! - so I needed an SV. The car needed to have an MOT to be eligible for the series I wanted to do so it had to start off as a road legal vehicle. I persuaded caterham to build me a road legal SV with full roll cage and an R500 engine. I ran it on the road for the first 500 miles, thereafter I only used it on track.
In addition to advertised models, Caterham will pretty much build a car to spec from their range of standard components. The possible variations are almost infinite. This car was factory built from standard components and therefore is a "factory built car". The engine upgrade was done by the factory approved engine shop - who built the original engine. The Evo engine was available as an upgrade or as an outright purchase. This car remains a factory car, IMHO.
It did a full season with SEMSEC at Lydden plus the odd race at Brands, Silverstone. The car was fully maintained by Hyperion. Halfway through the second season. we had the engine out to replace the clutch & I got the engine upgraded to EVO spec (2 litre, 250bhp) by Minister, the official caterham engine builder.
I then decided to do the European Masters series in a CSR so I sold the SV. The new owner converted it back to full road legal spec. Thereafter I've lost touch with the history.
re some of the comments:
Reliability: the engine did 1.5 race seasons without being rebuilt - it was fully checked as part of the winter refurb at the end of the first season. After the upgrade it did the rest of the second season and an endurance race in France without missing a beat. I don't know if the second owner had it rebuilt/refreshed - but it should come with a full service history (I wouldn't buy something like this without it). If it is looked after properly, including a periodic refresh, it should not be unreliable (look after the oil, get it hot before letting rip,etc). However if it breaks it will be expensive to rebuild to the same spec as it is a highly tuned race engine. Speak to Minister to find out approx rebuild costs if this is a concern. Note also there is a big (financial) difference between a periodic refresh (bearings, springs, guides, etc) and a rebuild 'cos something broke ! Also note that just about any K series engine will drop in, there's no obligation to keep it as an R500 Evo if the current engine does go pop.
Performance: this car is very quick, significantly quicker than an R400. There is alot of confusion about performance and a fair amount of mis-comparison. E.g. a 0-60 time is useful only if that is what you want, it is no guide to performance round a circuit. On track, some R500's underperform compared to a race spec R400 because they still have headlights and a windscreen and have not been properly set up. Tyres are also vital - R400 rear slicks were a good match for the performance of an R400 but they leave an R500 slightly "under-tyred". Take an R400 and an R500 with the right tyres, same aero package, same setup and same driver, then the R500 will be a little faster around a circuit but not by much. Both cars have the same braking ability and the same cornering limits. Top speed is virtually identical as it is based on aerodynamic considerations first, power comes second. Only in acceleration does the R500 have an advantage and some of this is negated on driveability as you do have to really rev the the engine to get the additional power and it can be tricky to use the power on corner exits. The R500e has yet more power but more importantly, it has a lot more torque and a bigger spread of torque. which makes it more driveable. For example, at Lydden in R500 spec, I used 2nd,3rd & 4th gears once racing; in R500e spec I just used 3rd & 4th. Fewer gear changes = better lap times.
Value: this is a unique car, so trying to value it is tricky. I can tell you it cost over £40k new and that's before the Evo conversion. (Please don't tell 'er indoors!)
Comparing it with other cars is not entirely helpful. So it really comes back to the old adage of "its worth what someone will pay for it". £25k is entirely justifiable but whether its worth that to an individual is something only that individual can answer.
One point I will add that is not obvious but well worth noting. The car has (used to have ?) a full Reverie carbon fibre air box and induction kit and a beautiful, light Raceo titanium silencer (repackable). This cut induction & exhaust noise right down - I was able to do track days at Bedford with no problem, which is more than can be said for most R400 & R500's. I don't know if the car still has these bits but there's probably £1.5k - £2k of value there alone.
Happy to answer any questions if I can, post or call me 07850 445 074
regards
Nigel"
thanks for all your BIG BIG help researching the car, now for sale at a dealer, so the 23k i thought was top
money for a cool rare car has gone up...... but lets see
www.pistonheads.com/sales/114996.htm
has had a recent refresh by the looks of it
thanks again all, still stupidly tempted
money for a cool rare car has gone up...... but lets see
www.pistonheads.com/sales/114996.htm
has had a recent refresh by the looks of it
thanks again all, still stupidly tempted
rathur said:
thanks for all your BIG BIG help researching the car, now for sale at a dealer, so the 23k i thought was top
money for a cool rare car has gone up...... but lets see
www.pistonheads.com/sales/114996.htm
has had a recent refresh by the looks of it
thanks again all, still stupidly tempted
money for a cool rare car has gone up...... but lets see
www.pistonheads.com/sales/114996.htm
has had a recent refresh by the looks of it
thanks again all, still stupidly tempted
It will be on SOR - so they'll be looking to return him his £23k. Do you want a standard (non SV)factory R500 for a grand or so less than that car was up for (not mine, before you ask)? I know of two whose owners are keen to sell.
Mail me thru here if you do.
If you can squeeze into a std chassis (non-SV) I seriously would.
A non-SV car will feel tiny and cramped at first compared with anything else on the road (I think many people go SV because of this, even they don;t really need the extra space). But give it a few miles and you become one with the car.
I'm 6'4" (3ft of that in the legs) and North of 16st (have been well North of 18st in the past) and I fit very nicely - most comfortable car I've owned for fligging around.
In contrast, I felt lost in the SV by comparison. And didn't feel anywhere near as connected with the car (this, to me, being the whole point of these cars).
The only thing that might be hassle is foot size - I'm an 11 and have hobbit width feet. Have to wear race boots to drive it and have fiddled with the pedal set up, but it just about works. If you're feet are any bigger you may struggle.
A non-SV car will feel tiny and cramped at first compared with anything else on the road (I think many people go SV because of this, even they don;t really need the extra space). But give it a few miles and you become one with the car.
I'm 6'4" (3ft of that in the legs) and North of 16st (have been well North of 18st in the past) and I fit very nicely - most comfortable car I've owned for fligging around.
In contrast, I felt lost in the SV by comparison. And didn't feel anywhere near as connected with the car (this, to me, being the whole point of these cars).
The only thing that might be hassle is foot size - I'm an 11 and have hobbit width feet. Have to wear race boots to drive it and have fiddled with the pedal set up, but it just about works. If you're feet are any bigger you may struggle.
There ain't a great deal of difference in the drive of SV's or STD body cars, either can be peddled quickly.
As its for the track I would dump the tillets anyhow and get yourself a foam seat, that way ou will fit in either chassis wihtout it feeling to big or too little. Have to check the leg length thing though, i dont have to worry about that.
Buy right though, most R500's dont sell cos they owe there owners too much.
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