R400 or CSR260
Discussion
Hi, I am going to purchase a used example of one or the other. It will be mainly for road use. Which one will sell better if I want to change the car, and is one or the other a much better proposition for driving.
Also, if you take the screen off and fit a deflector,what is the windblast like and do you get stones in your face ?
As you have guessed I am new to Caterhams ! Thanks.
Also, if you take the screen off and fit a deflector,what is the windblast like and do you get stones in your face ?
As you have guessed I am new to Caterhams ! Thanks.
An R400 will be cheaper than a 260 at the moment and will probably have a bigger number of buyers as a result, but there are a number of 260s on the market at the moment as the buyers were not dedicated 7-ers and have now traded up to the latest toy. I'd get the car you want and worry less about the trade in value - remember the price is really related to condition and not to milage or age.
The windblast from an aero (I have the RiF version) is much less than driving with the windscreen and no doors, and gives you a much more even 'hairstyle' than the buffeting from a full screen. Stones aren't really a problem providing you keep back from the car in front. For long journeys a helmet is essential - for shorter journeys you can get away with high-impact goggles (essential if you value your eyes) and earplugs. Small pieces of grit will hit your forehead occasionally, but I have never had anything bigger than that hit. However think what a stone hit does to a screen and you will realise what a 70mph hit would do to you. Oh, and you wouldn't believe how hard rain feels at 70mph..
Steve
The windblast from an aero (I have the RiF version) is much less than driving with the windscreen and no doors, and gives you a much more even 'hairstyle' than the buffeting from a full screen. Stones aren't really a problem providing you keep back from the car in front. For long journeys a helmet is essential - for shorter journeys you can get away with high-impact goggles (essential if you value your eyes) and earplugs. Small pieces of grit will hit your forehead occasionally, but I have never had anything bigger than that hit. However think what a stone hit does to a screen and you will realise what a 70mph hit would do to you. Oh, and you wouldn't believe how hard rain feels at 70mph..
Steve
sjmmarsh said:
An R400 will be cheaper than a 260 at the moment and will probably have a bigger number of buyers as a result, but there are a number of 260s on the market at the moment as the buyers were not dedicated 7-ers and have now traded up to the latest toy. I'd get the car you want and worry less about the trade in value - remember the price is really related to condition and not to milage or age.
The windblast from an aero (I have the RiF version) is much less than driving with the windscreen and no doors, and gives you a much more even 'hairstyle' than the buffeting from a full screen. Stones aren't really a problem providing you keep back from the car in front. For long journeys a helmet is essential - for shorter journeys you can get away with high-impact goggles (essential if you value your eyes) and earplugs. Small pieces of grit will hit your forehead occasionally, but I have never had anything bigger than that hit. However think what a stone hit does to a screen and you will realise what a 70mph hit would do to you. Oh, and you wouldn't believe how hard rain feels at 70mph..
Steve
The windblast from an aero (I have the RiF version) is much less than driving with the windscreen and no doors, and gives you a much more even 'hairstyle' than the buffeting from a full screen. Stones aren't really a problem providing you keep back from the car in front. For long journeys a helmet is essential - for shorter journeys you can get away with high-impact goggles (essential if you value your eyes) and earplugs. Small pieces of grit will hit your forehead occasionally, but I have never had anything bigger than that hit. However think what a stone hit does to a screen and you will realise what a 70mph hit would do to you. Oh, and you wouldn't believe how hard rain feels at 70mph..
Steve
Thanks Steve, very helpful. I am suprised about the buffeting with only the screen.
Wind smacking you in the face is very very bad with a full screen and no doors. For me, it detracted from the experience big time. I`ve now got an aero on my 500 and the buffeting is there but much more bearable. Wear some eye protection and you have a big grin factor. As for 400/260??......get a 500!!!
gra001 said:
Wind smacking you in the face is very very bad with a full screen and no doors. For me, it detracted from the experience big time. I`ve now got an aero on my 500 and the buffeting is there but much more bearable. Wear some eye protection and you have a big grin factor. As for 400/260??......get a 500!!!
I fancy the 500, but I keep reading about engines needing rebuilds after very few miles. Is this because they have been used on the track all the time, or is it down to the high state of tune ? If a 500 has been used with a more road bias,and just a few track days here and there, how long will it go without a major engine job/large bill ?dudlow said:
gra001 said:
Wind smacking you in the face is very very bad with a full screen and no doors. For me, it detracted from the experience big time. I`ve now got an aero on my 500 and the buffeting is there but much more bearable. Wear some eye protection and you have a big grin factor. As for 400/260??......get a 500!!!
I fancy the 500, but I keep reading about engines needing rebuilds after very few miles. Is this because they have been used on the track all the time, or is it down to the high state of tune ? If a 500 has been used with a more road bias,and just a few track days here and there, how long will it go without a major engine job/large bill ?I'm afraid I can't tell you anything about the R400, but I've built and owned a CSR260 since 2005, so have pretty well got a handle on this one. As has been said, there are now a few appearing for sale at what would seem to be a very reasonable price, that is between £25k - £30k with low miles, I suppose from people who couldn't stand the no compromise attitude you have to take as a Seven owner.
Frankly I am most impressed with the CSR, the suspension is a huge improvement and the Duratec motor is just so drivable with massive torque from low down. Try and get out in one, phone Caterham, they'll probably have a demo for you to try. My guess is that for similar money secondhand, the CSR will be head and shoulders ahead of the R400, even the latest Duratec, which will be almost impossible to get hold of on the S/H market for another 12 months.
Frankly I am most impressed with the CSR, the suspension is a huge improvement and the Duratec motor is just so drivable with massive torque from low down. Try and get out in one, phone Caterham, they'll probably have a demo for you to try. My guess is that for similar money secondhand, the CSR will be head and shoulders ahead of the R400, even the latest Duratec, which will be almost impossible to get hold of on the S/H market for another 12 months.
Unless budget was a BIG limiting factor, anyone coming to the market in the mid to upper 20's would be slightly nuts and/or mis-informed choosing a K series car over a duratec C400, a custom duratec car (e.g. freestyle) or CSR. The choice is there now on the secondhand market so apart from nostalgia there's no longer any reason to hold onto outdated & problematic technology. Ok, there's plenty of fond memories, existing K love and happy owners out there blah blah ... but none of that can change the fact that the game has moved on lightyears and the duratecs are much more powerful, way more reliable and robust and have far more tuning potential. I agree witrh the above poster as well, there are some serious CSR used bargains out there now given just how expensive they are new. And do not overlook the suitability of that chassis on the lumpy bumpy public highway, its a different kettle of fish to a series 3.
paulejacobs said:
I'm afraid I can't tell you anything about the R400, but I've built and owned a CSR260 since 2005, so have pretty well got a handle on this one. As has been said, there are now a few appearing for sale at what would seem to be a very reasonable price, that is between £25k - £30k with low miles, I suppose from people who couldn't stand the no compromise attitude you have to take as a Seven owner.
Frankly I am most impressed with the CSR, the suspension is a huge improvement and the Duratec motor is just so drivable with massive torque from low down. Try and get out in one, phone Caterham, they'll probably have a demo for you to try. My guess is that for similar money secondhand, the CSR will be head and shoulders ahead of the R400, even the latest Duratec, which will be almost impossible to get hold of on the S/H market for another 12 months.
I think that after the responses on this site, it would seem that the way forward is to aquire a nice used CSR260. Do the prices dip much as we go into winter, or are they pretty constant ? I presume that with such a high new list price they really want for nothing in the way of extras, or am I being a little naive ?Frankly I am most impressed with the CSR, the suspension is a huge improvement and the Duratec motor is just so drivable with massive torque from low down. Try and get out in one, phone Caterham, they'll probably have a demo for you to try. My guess is that for similar money secondhand, the CSR will be head and shoulders ahead of the R400, even the latest Duratec, which will be almost impossible to get hold of on the S/H market for another 12 months.
I thought about getting a CSR vs a new Duratec R400. In the end, I got a new Duratec R400 with Screen and optional aero screen. Reasons were:-
1. I was buying new and the R400 is considerably cheaper than a CSR260
2. I preferred the handling connection of the S3 car
3. I liked that fact that the Duratec was being fitted to the R400 in place of the k series
4. I'm not very big (5'9" and not chubby) - so I can fit into an S3 with ease
5. CSRs just seem to get more bad press and S3s - I'm sure some of it is unfounded, first car glitches or bad luck, but it did put me off a bit
I have to say - the R400 with full screen and doors attached is fine. Wind is not an issue. Leave the doors off, and its another story. Mine has had glitches - and I am still sorting these out. They are annoying, but I am confident they will get sorted. If you get a year old car (or older), the first owner will have had to sort out any issues - whether it's an R400 or CSR...
Best advice will be to try before you buy - it's the only way to sort out which one is best for you as this decision is highly personal to the individual. They are both excellent choices (assuming you are comparing a Duratec R400), and you will have heaps of fun with both. At track days, you probably won't spot much difference in performance between either of them unless you are a. an amazing driver, or b. putting the CSR on slicks. Not sure I would recommend a k series R400 if I had the option of Duratec.
Happy huntin and good luck!
1. I was buying new and the R400 is considerably cheaper than a CSR260
2. I preferred the handling connection of the S3 car
3. I liked that fact that the Duratec was being fitted to the R400 in place of the k series
4. I'm not very big (5'9" and not chubby) - so I can fit into an S3 with ease
5. CSRs just seem to get more bad press and S3s - I'm sure some of it is unfounded, first car glitches or bad luck, but it did put me off a bit
I have to say - the R400 with full screen and doors attached is fine. Wind is not an issue. Leave the doors off, and its another story. Mine has had glitches - and I am still sorting these out. They are annoying, but I am confident they will get sorted. If you get a year old car (or older), the first owner will have had to sort out any issues - whether it's an R400 or CSR...
Best advice will be to try before you buy - it's the only way to sort out which one is best for you as this decision is highly personal to the individual. They are both excellent choices (assuming you are comparing a Duratec R400), and you will have heaps of fun with both. At track days, you probably won't spot much difference in performance between either of them unless you are a. an amazing driver, or b. putting the CSR on slicks. Not sure I would recommend a k series R400 if I had the option of Duratec.
Happy huntin and good luck!
subirg said:
I thought about getting a CSR vs a new Duratec R400. In the end, I got a new Duratec R400 with Screen and optional aero screen. Reasons were:-
1. I was buying new and the R400 is considerably cheaper than a CSR260
2. I preferred the handling connection of the S3 car
3. I liked that fact that the Duratec was being fitted to the R400 in place of the k series
4. I'm not very big (5'9" and not chubby) - so I can fit into an S3 with ease
5. CSRs just seem to get more bad press and S3s - I'm sure some of it is unfounded, first car glitches or bad luck, but it did put me off a bit
Thanks very much subirg
I have to say - the R400 with full screen and doors attached is fine. Wind is not an issue. Leave the doors off, and its another story. Mine has had glitches - and I am still sorting these out. They are annoying, but I am confident they will get sorted. If you get a year old car (or older), the first owner will have had to sort out any issues - whether it's an R400 or CSR...
Best advice will be to try before you buy - it's the only way to sort out which one is best for you as this decision is highly personal to the individual. They are both excellent choices (assuming you are comparing a Duratec R400), and you will have heaps of fun with both. At track days, you probably won't spot much difference in performance between either of them unless you are a. an amazing driver, or b. putting the CSR on slicks. Not sure I would recommend a k series R400 if I had the option of Duratec.
Happy huntin and good luck!
1. I was buying new and the R400 is considerably cheaper than a CSR260
2. I preferred the handling connection of the S3 car
3. I liked that fact that the Duratec was being fitted to the R400 in place of the k series
4. I'm not very big (5'9" and not chubby) - so I can fit into an S3 with ease
5. CSRs just seem to get more bad press and S3s - I'm sure some of it is unfounded, first car glitches or bad luck, but it did put me off a bit
Thanks very much subirg
I have to say - the R400 with full screen and doors attached is fine. Wind is not an issue. Leave the doors off, and its another story. Mine has had glitches - and I am still sorting these out. They are annoying, but I am confident they will get sorted. If you get a year old car (or older), the first owner will have had to sort out any issues - whether it's an R400 or CSR...
Best advice will be to try before you buy - it's the only way to sort out which one is best for you as this decision is highly personal to the individual. They are both excellent choices (assuming you are comparing a Duratec R400), and you will have heaps of fun with both. At track days, you probably won't spot much difference in performance between either of them unless you are a. an amazing driver, or b. putting the CSR on slicks. Not sure I would recommend a k series R400 if I had the option of Duratec.
Happy huntin and good luck!
My main aim would be to get a narrow body 7 if possible. If you don't NEED the extra space of the SV (CSRs are all SVs IIRC) then stick with the snug, narrow car.
I run my 7 with screen but have the RiF aeroscreen too. In terms of buffetting, the worst is with screen and no doors, then aeroscreen, then screen and doors and finally obviously roof on is the least buffetty but noisy! I never drive aero without high-impact glasses on and sometimes my helmet too. As said earlier - rain really stings at 60mph!
I run my 7 with screen but have the RiF aeroscreen too. In terms of buffetting, the worst is with screen and no doors, then aeroscreen, then screen and doors and finally obviously roof on is the least buffetty but noisy! I never drive aero without high-impact glasses on and sometimes my helmet too. As said earlier - rain really stings at 60mph!
I own a superlight R (the R400's predecessor) with an aero screen. Driving long distances is best with helmets but a hat and ear and eye protection will get you most places. Didn't get many stones in the face but bugs sting a bit.
If you're planning a lot of road driving the screen is better, vice versa for track driving.
I don't agree with this duratec thing being better. Most of the car journos prefer the k series for throttle response but duratecs have torque advantage which is mainly felt on the road. The CSR is also heavier than an R400. Therefore I'd say CSR for mainly road use, and R400 if you're going to spend more time on the track.
Regarding R500 rebuilds the official line is a 'refresh' every 3000 track miles (that's actually quite a lot) or every 9000 road miles. I'm sure a 260 bhp 2.3 duratec would be broadly similar to keep it at its best. A refresh could be from £2k to nearer £5k. From my experience the R500 is well worth that.
If you're planning a lot of road driving the screen is better, vice versa for track driving.
I don't agree with this duratec thing being better. Most of the car journos prefer the k series for throttle response but duratecs have torque advantage which is mainly felt on the road. The CSR is also heavier than an R400. Therefore I'd say CSR for mainly road use, and R400 if you're going to spend more time on the track.
Regarding R500 rebuilds the official line is a 'refresh' every 3000 track miles (that's actually quite a lot) or every 9000 road miles. I'm sure a 260 bhp 2.3 duratec would be broadly similar to keep it at its best. A refresh could be from £2k to nearer £5k. From my experience the R500 is well worth that.
The throttle on my 2.0 duratec car was as good if not better than my superlight R, especially after Steve Greenald had fine tuned the map.
And you can't even begin to compare the stress levels of the 230 K versus a 2.3 duratec.... just the abuse that the valvetrain alone gets at those revs is in a completely different ballpark to what the hefty robust 2.3 is doing at 6500.
If you drive your R500 on trackdays no quicker than say a megagrad car - which was certainly the fashion a few years ago - then fine.... but remembering back to the days of the Centurian challenge, never mind 3000 miles, the R500's were rebuilt/replaced more like every race !
And you can't even begin to compare the stress levels of the 230 K versus a 2.3 duratec.... just the abuse that the valvetrain alone gets at those revs is in a completely different ballpark to what the hefty robust 2.3 is doing at 6500.
If you drive your R500 on trackdays no quicker than say a megagrad car - which was certainly the fashion a few years ago - then fine.... but remembering back to the days of the Centurian challenge, never mind 3000 miles, the R500's were rebuilt/replaced more like every race !
Edited by jackal on Monday 1st October 20:45
dudlow said:
Thanks Steve, very helpful. I am suprised about the buffeting with only the screen.
Dudlow - if you think about it, the screen is basically a flat surface going forwards at the same speed as the car. This means that you get a high pressure area in the front of the screen and low pressure behind it. Air from the high pressure goes past the top of the screen, past it towards the rear of the car, and then is sucked back towards the screen. It can lead to the unusual effect of any liquid dripping from your nose flying straight forward and hitting the inside of the windscreen...
Steve
The Pits said:
Regarding R500 rebuilds the official line is a 'refresh' every 3000 track miles (that's actually quite a lot) or every 9000 road miles. I'm sure a 260 bhp 2.3 duratec would be broadly similar to keep it at its best. A refresh could be from £2k to nearer £5k. From my experience the R500 is well worth that.
9,000 road miles....really?...why refresh these engines that frequently when an R400 engine has no "official" refresh recommendation?Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff