R400 or CSR260
Discussion
Surely if enthusiasts used a 95/95 rule to govern or at least influence their purchase, we`d all be buying what we would class as quite boring motors? Mostly, the roads and the laws don`t allow it and even if they did the majority haven`t got the talent!! It`s great to use 95/95 on the track but in reality us mortals do most of our driving on the public highway. In general, I couldn`t use a Gallardo 95/95 but would I prefer one to something I could???.................OH YES!!!!! It`s often about needs and wants. Do you need a 260/400???....maybe not. Do you want one??.....probably!!!
Do I use my car on the track to within 95% of it's limits, hell yes, and beyond during every lap I'm sure. If I didn't, there would be no point tracking it.
As for the road, no I wouldn't. Only when I felt it was safe to do so and that wouldn't be high speed bends, for sure. After being used to a C400, I wouldn't want a slow Caterham for the road. I would perfer to have the capabilites there, incase I feel the urge to get a shifty on.
As for the road, no I wouldn't. Only when I felt it was safe to do so and that wouldn't be high speed bends, for sure. After being used to a C400, I wouldn't want a slow Caterham for the road. I would perfer to have the capabilites there, incase I feel the urge to get a shifty on.
Yes its nice to have an R400, could I pedal it that much quicker on the roads than a roadsport......the jurys out. ITs "nice" to belive your car is the fastest thing out their beacuse of its manufactueres figures but honestly if you think your running an R400 on its limits on the road your probably just missing your next issue of top gear.....isn't the stig great.
As for buying cars that you know you can't exploit.....whats the point, your now buying them for what people think of you in it, or how you would like others t think you, rather than self satisfication. Why buy a gallardo if your not going to try an use it as it was designed.....you might aswell get a video and watch.
Rosco...as for slower caterhams, you really think you run your c400 at 95%?? Tested one a month or so back-WOW! My neck still aches.
As for buying cars that you know you can't exploit.....whats the point, your now buying them for what people think of you in it, or how you would like others t think you, rather than self satisfication. Why buy a gallardo if your not going to try an use it as it was designed.....you might aswell get a video and watch.
Rosco...as for slower caterhams, you really think you run your c400 at 95%?? Tested one a month or so back-WOW! My neck still aches.
Edited by James.S on Saturday 6th October 03:45
when i worked at pinewood studios and drove to work for 2 years, every single day i left my duratec caterham behind and took the 205 gti, the Golf gti or the Honda civic lsi... slow cars, zero grip and just better fun than the caterham on the road.
In that time, I wrote off 2 of those cars, grenaded a nissan primera, got stopped by old bill several times over and also got banned in court and had my license taken away... not too clever at all but i was having that much fun !
cars are just that, cars...... once you get beyond the materialism, the branding and the mystique its really just about sensations and input->output.
In that time, I wrote off 2 of those cars, grenaded a nissan primera, got stopped by old bill several times over and also got banned in court and had my license taken away... not too clever at all but i was having that much fun !
cars are just that, cars...... once you get beyond the materialism, the branding and the mystique its really just about sensations and input->output.
Edited by jackal on Friday 5th October 22:46
Quote:
"As for buying cars that you know you can't exploit.....whats the point, your now buying them for what people think of you in it, or how you would like others t think you, rather than self satisfication. Why buy a gallardo if your not going to try an use it as it was designed.....you might aswell get a video and watch"
There is every point in buying a car that you know you can`t exploit fully. You make your purchase and drive it to the best of your ability. Very likely, the majority of people on this site are unable to get the most from their cars. Quite simply, not enough talent but that doesn`t mean they shouldn`t have purchased the car surely??
Making the purchase on that legitimate basis is quite different to having your purchase influenced by......."now, can I use 95% of its potential, 95% of the time"!
"As for buying cars that you know you can't exploit.....whats the point, your now buying them for what people think of you in it, or how you would like others t think you, rather than self satisfication. Why buy a gallardo if your not going to try an use it as it was designed.....you might aswell get a video and watch"
There is every point in buying a car that you know you can`t exploit fully. You make your purchase and drive it to the best of your ability. Very likely, the majority of people on this site are unable to get the most from their cars. Quite simply, not enough talent but that doesn`t mean they shouldn`t have purchased the car surely??
Making the purchase on that legitimate basis is quite different to having your purchase influenced by......."now, can I use 95% of its potential, 95% of the time"!
James.S said:
... your now buying them for what people think of you in it, or how you would like others t think you, rather than self satisfication. Why buy a gallardo if your not going to try an use it as it was designed.....
A somewhat sweeping generalisation. Taken to its conclusion, what you're effectively saying is that everyone should buy the same piece of humdrum tin unless all they're worried about is image.
After all, an Audi A3, Golf and Seat Ibiza are all the same...
jackal said:
...its really just about sensations and input->output...
I'd agree with this.But unlike James wouldn't dismiss cars like the Gallardo. These sorts of cars are full of sensations, inputs and outputs. Even when not being pushed 100%. And if the particular ones that they are full of float your boat, then it makes those cars equally valid.
I do tend to agree that the apparent focus on performace figures these days is misguided considering today's road conditions. I also suspect it isn't doing the cause of performance cars long term any good with the great unwashed. But as petrolheads I can't believe any of you really think that cars like Gallardos, CSR260s or any other very rapid performance car is pointless.
There are moments even on the road where having an R400 over a lesser powered car will increase the grin factor (I started with ~130bhp and now have ~200bhp). Granted, on the road, these times are relatively limited. But if you can afford the car, why not be able to exploit those opportunities (after all, driven with part throttle they are just like the lower spec cars in a general sense. So you get 2 cars
).And on track days, even if you're not Lewis Hamilton, the extra grunt often comes in handy. Especially on mixed events where lesser cars round the corners can often frustrate on the straights by hoofing it. An R400 or similar allows you to eradicate this problem pretty much entirely.
Which would I buy...I'm not sure I like many of the mods Caterham made to the CSR (the aero stuff etc - aesthetics are another sensory input after all), and the cars seem to be quite a lot more expensive. So I'd probably go the R400 route.
Despite the pitiful underuse of my own R400, it still feels like a hugely illicit thrill to roll it out on the road.
I had to fire mine up and out for it's first MOT yesterday and that involved a short m-way blat. I know, I know, totally incongruous for that which the car exists and yet...
When a ham fisted, clod hoofed chump comme moi can heel and toe instinctively you know it's something special and with the decatted 'frap-baps' on the overruns and sheer scream of the visceral wail on the charge, even though it's about 95% away from the essence of it's track based raison d'etre, it still hoves large in my thoughts as the most essential motoring experience ever.
The fact of my disgraceful unfamiliarity (in this car) with any track, anywhere, merely represents future transcendence into automotive Nirvana and given how few opportunities I am likely to have to exploit events accordingly, it becomes very much a long term voyage of discovery.
I even had mine paint corrected and smeared in Daftol Royale recently, it looks lovely and people at large, in the main, seem to love it/them. It's a refreshing change for the paranoid, persecuted, hooncentric blatter.
I had to fire mine up and out for it's first MOT yesterday and that involved a short m-way blat. I know, I know, totally incongruous for that which the car exists and yet...
When a ham fisted, clod hoofed chump comme moi can heel and toe instinctively you know it's something special and with the decatted 'frap-baps' on the overruns and sheer scream of the visceral wail on the charge, even though it's about 95% away from the essence of it's track based raison d'etre, it still hoves large in my thoughts as the most essential motoring experience ever.
The fact of my disgraceful unfamiliarity (in this car) with any track, anywhere, merely represents future transcendence into automotive Nirvana and given how few opportunities I am likely to have to exploit events accordingly, it becomes very much a long term voyage of discovery.
I even had mine paint corrected and smeared in Daftol Royale recently, it looks lovely and people at large, in the main, seem to love it/them. It's a refreshing change for the paranoid, persecuted, hooncentric blatter.
gra001 said:
Surely if enthusiasts used a 95/95 rule to govern or at least influence their purchase, we`d all be buying what we would class as quite boring motors?
Gra, Murph ...... There you have it in a nutsell, the presumtion that because it isn't at the top of the performacne section of some w*nk car mag that its boring, ie 120hp roadsport vs 200hp R400/500.All I am suggesting is that rather than shell our more wad so you can tell your mates down the pub that nothing this side of 100k can touch it start with the "mundane & boring" get an decent instructor and learn to drive the car. The benefits when you move to rocket powered motors will be more rewarding for you and probably a little but safer for everyone else on the roads
As for heel and toeing down the motorway ?WTF? .
Edited by James.S on Saturday 6th October 10:01
I think we're all broadly on the same wavelength.
And having started with a lesser powered car and happily tracked that, I agree with you on starting sensibly.
But...if I'd had the cash at the time, and the SLR had existed, I would probably have bought one from the get go. If only to avoid the hassles of changing later/depreciation.
As it was I ended up with upgraditis (no known cure) and enjoyed yet another part of the ownership with these little cars.
They're not for everyone, however, and there will always be those who prefer the cars in the 6 figure bracket. And not all of them are chest wig, medallion wearing poseurs (honest guv).
And having started with a lesser powered car and happily tracked that, I agree with you on starting sensibly.
But...if I'd had the cash at the time, and the SLR had existed, I would probably have bought one from the get go. If only to avoid the hassles of changing later/depreciation.
As it was I ended up with upgraditis (no known cure) and enjoyed yet another part of the ownership with these little cars.
They're not for everyone, however, and there will always be those who prefer the cars in the 6 figure bracket. And not all of them are chest wig, medallion wearing poseurs (honest guv).
You chaps are all correct, but (maybe it's just me) there's a lot to be said for flashier, shiner parts that make the car quicker
This is what I might term the grown-up version of being a maxpower boy at 17 who cruises the high street in a blinged up motor; it just makes you smile. We love cars and we love toys. I had a whizzy Omega piston in my hand the other day and it was a lovely thing to behold. Sad I know, but tell me you don't all think a little like this! I also think it's a little of a waste to buy an R500 or CSR260 and not use some of its potential on track, but I understand the attraction.
To give you the context and admit to my own failings, I started with a 1.6 Supersport for a couple of years, chopped it in for a SLR (with Jenveys, Emerald and cam timing added later), blew-up the engine and so "took the opportunity" over the last year to have a DVA/Scholar 1.9 re-build, new Nitrons, race cage and complete overhaul... It comes back next week with R500/CSR260 eating performance so I'm most excited. These cars are fun on the road (but common sense required) and blistering on the track. They are also fun to know what it is you are bolted into as you drive along, or indeed as you chat to your mates in the pub!
This is what I might term the grown-up version of being a maxpower boy at 17 who cruises the high street in a blinged up motor; it just makes you smile. We love cars and we love toys. I had a whizzy Omega piston in my hand the other day and it was a lovely thing to behold. Sad I know, but tell me you don't all think a little like this! I also think it's a little of a waste to buy an R500 or CSR260 and not use some of its potential on track, but I understand the attraction.
To give you the context and admit to my own failings, I started with a 1.6 Supersport for a couple of years, chopped it in for a SLR (with Jenveys, Emerald and cam timing added later), blew-up the engine and so "took the opportunity" over the last year to have a DVA/Scholar 1.9 re-build, new Nitrons, race cage and complete overhaul... It comes back next week with R500/CSR260 eating performance so I'm most excited. These cars are fun on the road (but common sense required) and blistering on the track. They are also fun to know what it is you are bolted into as you drive along, or indeed as you chat to your mates in the pub!
I'm wondering if people extolling the virtues of an aftermarket, highly tuned K, have actually driven a Duratec in anger or for any period of time on the road? It certainly doesn't sound like it. OTOH Jackall does know what he's talking about, and it shows.
I suspect that it may be that people are defending what they have chosen to put their hard earned money into, rather than what is actually best. Shoot me down if I'm wrong though.
I suspect that it may be that people are defending what they have chosen to put their hard earned money into, rather than what is actually best. Shoot me down if I'm wrong though.
paulejacobs said:
Shoot me down if I'm wrong though.
...I've driven the CSR260 superlight on track for half an hour which is quite a few laps of Donny. It was the first, press release car in orange. Caterham brought it to an RMA paddock club day I was at and were loaning it out; only Evo mag had driven it before! It was excellent and nothing touched me, although the car was set up in that special factory way if you know what I mean, so there was more speed to be had!
The difference vs a highly tuned K is very evident, as was the size. That being said, it's still a Caterham and blisteringly fast; it's not like moving from a Caterham to a Porsche. I noticed the big torque and the less screamy nature so the experience was a bit different.
If I was buying a new Caterham with price not an issue I'd have a fast Duratec no question. If I'm faced with prices as they are now where a lightly used CSR260 is mid 30s and SLR or R500 are £18k and just over £20k respectively, then there is some attraction to to the K-series based model (about 15k attraction!). If my super-K at 250bhp blows completely rather than has a smaller issue I'm sure I'll go Duractec and that is then a £10k option. The £15k price delta now vs the £10k replacement, only once/if my K blows, sounds like a pretty good argument. No right answer, but interesting cost benefit analysis without getting all dogmatic about it!
paulejacobs said:
I'm wondering if people extolling the virtues of an aftermarket, highly tuned K, have actually driven a Duratec in anger or for any period of time on the road? It certainly doesn't sound like it. OTOH Jackall does know what he's talking about, and it shows.
I suspect that it may be that people are defending what they have chosen to put their hard earned money into, rather than what is actually best. Shoot me down if I'm wrong though.
I'm sure you're right, Paul. I suspect that it may be that people are defending what they have chosen to put their hard earned money into, rather than what is actually best. Shoot me down if I'm wrong though.
I wouldn't claim my R400 K jobbie is 'as good' as a new car but I'm too far away from the demo places to guage if a chop in's worthwhile.
Fwiw, I do like the trucculence of the more stressed out Ks but I concede, the new engines are probably a revelation.
What's an 04 R400 with all the bits (factory built) with 1500 miles worth? I don't want a lazee boy one, either: feeling like one of John West's salmon is essential to the experience. How much to get into the new car - CSR260, what else, btw?
P.S. Do you still get the staccato shotgun effect sans cat?
derestrictor said:
Despite the pitiful underuse of my own R400, it still feels like a hugely illicit thrill to roll it out on the road.
I had to fire mine up and out for it's first MOT yesterday and that involved a short m-way blat. I know, I know, totally incongruous for that which the car exists and yet...
When a ham fisted, clod hoofed chump comme moi can heel and toe instinctively you know it's something special and with the decatted 'frap-baps' on the overruns and sheer scream of the visceral wail on the charge, even though it's about 95% away from the essence of it's track based raison d'etre, it still hoves large in my thoughts as the most essential motoring experience ever.
The fact of my disgraceful unfamiliarity (in this car) with any track, anywhere, merely represents future transcendence into automotive Nirvana and given how few opportunities I am likely to have to exploit events accordingly, it becomes very much a long term voyage of discovery.
I even had mine paint corrected and smeared in Daftol Royale recently, it looks lovely and people at large, in the main, seem to love it/them. It's a refreshing change for the paranoid, persecuted, hooncentric blatter.
This feeling that you so eloquently portray with regard to taking the car out onto the track, and the shame you feel for not having done so, is how I have felt for a long time after years of long term Ferrari ownership. I love the car, and get such a good feeling every time its driven, but I shy away from the track having seen so many people in high value cars trash them as the red mist decends. I am a very keen biker, and do the odd track day on bikes, but as I get older I feel slightly less invincable and feel that my balls out/leave the brain in the paddock style of riding may be better on four wheels. This is were I have had the problem with not wanting to bend a corner(or worse) in a Ferrari, and feel that a corner of a Caterham comes a lot cheaper. Most of the use of my proposed purchase will still be on the road, and following the great response to my original question I am almost convinced that a CSR260 is the way to go. I feel that after years of 150bhp bikes, and (heavy) 450bhp+ cars the power should not be intimidating, and the bonus of a more torquey engine with a bit more space in the cabin should make touring less of an ordeal, and at the same time I can give it stick on the track without to much regard to either blowing it up or feeling my day could cost 50k+. Thanks again guys for your input. I had to fire mine up and out for it's first MOT yesterday and that involved a short m-way blat. I know, I know, totally incongruous for that which the car exists and yet...
When a ham fisted, clod hoofed chump comme moi can heel and toe instinctively you know it's something special and with the decatted 'frap-baps' on the overruns and sheer scream of the visceral wail on the charge, even though it's about 95% away from the essence of it's track based raison d'etre, it still hoves large in my thoughts as the most essential motoring experience ever.
The fact of my disgraceful unfamiliarity (in this car) with any track, anywhere, merely represents future transcendence into automotive Nirvana and given how few opportunities I am likely to have to exploit events accordingly, it becomes very much a long term voyage of discovery.
I even had mine paint corrected and smeared in Daftol Royale recently, it looks lovely and people at large, in the main, seem to love it/them. It's a refreshing change for the paranoid, persecuted, hooncentric blatter.
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