Caterham with clothes on . . .
Discussion
There's no way Caterham would sell the moulds to anyone else. They have a hard time as it is trying to watch what others do with Seven type cars.
The really ironic thing is that the Seven evolved from the beautifully streamlined Lotus 11. All Lotus did back in 1957 was take off the curvaceous bodywork and panel in the spaceframe.
The really ironic thing is that the Seven evolved from the beautifully streamlined Lotus 11. All Lotus did back in 1957 was take off the curvaceous bodywork and panel in the spaceframe.
Lotus certainly kept an eye on Seven developments at the time they were designing the first Elise back in 1994/95. In fact, they even went to the trouble of buying Caterham Sevens to use as benchmark handling test vehicles. If you have ever seen the Discovery Channel documentary on the planning of the Elise you will hear the Lotus management board and designers constantly refer to the Elise as "a modern Seven" or "in the spirit of the Seven". So, although not identical, the Seven and the Elise share very similar driving and handling philosophies.
If I were Lotus, I would keep well away from any involvement with Caterham. The products they both make obviously have broadly similar aims and there is the old historic link - so muddling of image, for both companies, could be a problem. Therefore, Lotus would have to consider what they would get out of such an arrangement and my hunch is that Caterham would probably benefit more.
At the time Caterham took over building the Seven in 1973, part of the deal was that Caterham dropped any reference to the word "Lotus" anywhere on the car or its advertising and promotional literature. Lotus were obviously keen to keep clear water between the two companies and not to confuse any potential customers.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 16th April 08:37
If I were Lotus, I would keep well away from any involvement with Caterham. The products they both make obviously have broadly similar aims and there is the old historic link - so muddling of image, for both companies, could be a problem. Therefore, Lotus would have to consider what they would get out of such an arrangement and my hunch is that Caterham would probably benefit more.
At the time Caterham took over building the Seven in 1973, part of the deal was that Caterham dropped any reference to the word "Lotus" anywhere on the car or its advertising and promotional literature. Lotus were obviously keen to keep clear water between the two companies and not to confuse any potential customers.
>> Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 16th April 08:37
, and about 24 Se7ens. 
dinkel said:
Aprisa, you have a beautiful car there, which I had never heard of. What's the engine / chassis?
Is ur Phantom Vortex a Honda v6 with an autobox?
Hi to you both, no it's a manual, couldn't bring myself to build a sporting coupe with an auto!
Everthing bar the engine/box is bespoke, chassis is a huge square section spaceframe.
Nick
rubystone said:
Cotty, the 21 is based around the Seven frame ISTR - so not a straightforward job to remanufacture it (and I suppose Caterham wouldn't allow Arch to sell the frame to someone else)
If someone took molds from the body I wouldnt have thought it would be that difficult for say Ginnetta to manufacture their own frame and fit the body to it. It just seems a waste for such a lovely looking car to go to fall by the wayside.
cotty said:
Cotty, the 21 is based around the Seven frame ISTR - so not a straightforward job to remanufacture it (and I suppose Caterham wouldn't allow Arch to sell the frame to someone else)
If someone took molds from the body I wouldnt have thought it would be that difficult for say Ginnetta to manufacture their own frame and fit the body to it. It just seems a waste for such a lovely looking car to go to fall by the wayside.
That's what I say!!!
Like the way they get royalties from Westfield, Birkin etc etc etc ..............NOT.
I think Caterham just want to forget about the 21 and move on. Funnily enough, I reckon the 21 MIGHT have done better if it had been designed around an SVA chassis. Unfortunately, the SVA chassis didn't exist in 1994.
I think Caterham just want to forget about the 21 and move on. Funnily enough, I reckon the 21 MIGHT have done better if it had been designed around an SVA chassis. Unfortunately, the SVA chassis didn't exist in 1994.
The Birkin is questionable to be honest and Westfield started off making an exact copy - only to be instructed by the courts to change some fundamental aspects of the design to make it "legal".
I just think that Caterham no are longer interested in "colaborative" projects - at least, not for the moment.
I just think that Caterham no are longer interested in "colaborative" projects - at least, not for the moment.
I have the Top Gear report on the Caterham 21 on a VHS tape somewhere. I must see if I can find it and digitise it.
At the time, Tiff Needel said that if the Elise didn't already exist then CAterham would have a winner. But as the Elise did, and had a hood that didn't leak, and windows that wound down, and (crucially) was TWO THOUSAND pounds cheaper, Caterham were going to have a tough job on their hands.
I suspect that it was the last point that really killed the 21, unfortunately.
At the time, Tiff Needel said that if the Elise didn't already exist then CAterham would have a winner. But as the Elise did, and had a hood that didn't leak, and windows that wound down, and (crucially) was TWO THOUSAND pounds cheaper, Caterham were going to have a tough job on their hands.
I suspect that it was the last point that really killed the 21, unfortunately.
How many of you have driven a 21 or just sit in one?
The 21 was never built to compete against the 7. Therefore, it is not a 7 in clothes
The 21 is much more user friendly than an Elise, the boot of the 21 can swallow enough camping gear for two person including beer, tent, sleeping bags... Have you try to fit all this in an Elise and its ludicrously small boot. In addition, the roof can up in half a minute while staying inside the car.
The only problem the 21 suffered from was it was the development was underfounded.
The 21 was never built to compete against the 7. Therefore, it is not a 7 in clothes
The 21 is much more user friendly than an Elise, the boot of the 21 can swallow enough camping gear for two person including beer, tent, sleeping bags... Have you try to fit all this in an Elise and its ludicrously small boot. In addition, the roof can up in half a minute while staying inside the car.
The only problem the 21 suffered from was it was the development was underfounded.
Aprisa said:
This was the only ever good looking kit car too, IMO. What a wasted opportunity.
So you think mines ugly?
Nick
Is yours a Burgundy red metallic one? If so I'm the bloke in a Saab of some description giving it the once over, normally on the underpass just before the Mosque(sp) Does look bloody good for a kit car if it is the one
Jack&MLE - it WAS a Seven with clothes. The entire underpinnings of the car were based on the Seven. Don't forget, the Seven originally was a Lotus 11 with the clothes taken off so putting a streamlined body on a Seven type chassis was nothing new. It WAS under funded but that was not going to make any difference - Caterham just didn't have the resources to develop a car to the same extent that its rivals could.
With hindsight it's obvous now that the 21 was always going to struggle to generate sales - with or without the emeregence of more mainstream two seaters like the Elise or the MGF. Which is a real pity as it is an extremely nice looking car and, from what I've read, was every bit as good, handling wise, as an Elise.
With hindsight it's obvous now that the 21 was always going to struggle to generate sales - with or without the emeregence of more mainstream two seaters like the Elise or the MGF. Which is a real pity as it is an extremely nice looking car and, from what I've read, was every bit as good, handling wise, as an Elise.
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