Gran turismo 5....the official thread [Vol 2]

[zebedee]

Lord said:

Will do chaps. Somehow i am going to have to replicate my setup (overloaded) somehow.

I had a car full to the brim with goodies i was bringing home after christmas. Apart from 5kg of bacon, 5kg of cheese and 15L of fruit squash i also had the 4 19" summer wheels in the car plus Christmas luggage for 2 and all of our presents. I had the summer rear wheels strapped into the rear seats and the two fronts strapped to the roof inside a box. It was not the best handeling of cars

On top (or more acuratly underneath ) all of that i was running on the 17" skinny winter snow tyres. I felt like i had zero grip, it understeered a lot.

Found a pic of it on the net.

http://www.racetracker.de/event/picture/222354-3ad...

My video is here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU7y21Z6L_Q

i was going to write up my experiances as a first timer for General Gassing when i get time

excellent non-racing driver racing driver excuses there sir!

[Alfanatic]

Lord said:

Will do chaps. Somehow i am going to have to replicate my setup (overloaded) somehow.

I had a car full to the brim with goodies i was bringing home after christmas. Apart from 5kg of bacon, 5kg of cheese and 15L of fruit squash i also had the 4 19" summer wheels in the car plus Christmas luggage for 2 and all of our presents. I had the summer rear wheels strapped into the rear seats and the two fronts strapped to the roof inside a box. It was not the best handeling of cars

On top (or more acuratly underneath ) all of that i was running on the 17" skinny winter snow tyres. I felt like i had zero grip, it understeered a lot.

Found a pic of it on the net.

http://www.racetracker.de/event/picture/222354-3ad...

My video is here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU7y21Z6L_Q

i was going to write up my experiances as a first timer for General Gassing when i get time

The roof box is going to be difficult to simulate

[Darkdice]

The one thing GT5 still cant replicate (although its a lot better than previous renders) is the elevation change.

In real life some sections are very scary. The track feels narrower in real life too. The kerbs are massive in places but thats well repliacted but but much more terrifying when you clip one for real.

[mat777]

Chris Stott said:

You want an Elise 111r

Here's a set up for it that I built for the recent Autumn Ring Mini Seasonal TT - it's a good tune as I ended 12th in the World and a few of my mates used it too.

It's built for 480ppts and sports hard tyres, but should be OK for comfort softs. You'll need to add a turbo to get enough ppts - don't be tempted to reduce the ballast as you'll change the balance of the car. If it's a bit tail happy on comforts try upping the wing to 12-15, changing the rear toe from -0.05 to +0.05 or reducing the LSD accel to 10. If you need to change the gearing just adjust the final.

Parts:
Weight reduction stage 3
Window weight reduction
Carbon bonnet
Rigidity improvement
ECU
Engine tunning stage 3
Sports intake manifold
Racing air filter
Sports manifold
Catalytic convertor
Titanium racing exhaust
Fully customisable transmission
Twin plate clutch
Racing flywheel
Fully customisable LSD
Fully customisable suspension
Rear wing

Ballast: 127kg @ position 20
Makes 251bhp @ 886kg for 480ppts

Settings:
Ride -25 +40
Springs 7.0 15.0
Rebound 4 9
Bound 3 8
ARB 1 6
Camber 2.0 1.5
Toe -0.12 -0.05

LSD 10 12 5

Wing 10

Gears... reset to defualt, then set max speed to minium, then set individual gears, then final
1st 3.807
2nd 2.933
3rd 2.428
4th 2.035
5th 1.713
6th 1.460
Final 3.593

Good luck

By Jove, it worked!

I didnt have a 111R in the garage so tried it on my type 72, and I managed to beat everyone with a lap to spare!

Out of interest, would you mind explaining what each mod does to the handling of the car? I have no idea how most of those affect it, but would like to know for future reference when tuning cars. I am particularly interested in why the rear end is jacked up?

thanks,

Matt

[Chris Stott]

mat777 said:

By Jove, it worked!

I didnt have a 111R in the garage so tried it on my type 72, and I managed to beat everyone with a lap to spare!

Out of interest, would you mind explaining what each mod does to the handling of the car? I have no idea how most of those affect it, but would like to know for future reference when tuning cars. I am particularly interested in why the rear end is jacked up?

thanks,

Matt

Glad it worked - The Elise is very competitive for its power points (PPTs) and brilliant to drive with a good tune.

This will likely be a long post – I’ll do my best to try and keep it as concise as possible.

I understand a decent amount about how real suspension works, and the principals of weight transfer etc, but often GT doesn’t work as you’d expect it should do. And it’s hard to know where to start with explaining how the settings work as I’ve been playing Gran Turismo since GT1, so a lot of it is just habit or ‘feel’.

My main objective when setting up a car is to get rid of as much understeer as possible. Anyone who’s played the game for any length of time will know that with a few exceptions (mainly mid engine cars), GT5 cars handling balance is predominantly understeer led. The more of this you can get rid of the more corner speed you can carry, meaning you’ll carry more speed down the next straight and your lap times will fall as a result… plus the car will feel nicer to drive.

What I’m aiming for is a car that’s as ‘pointy’ as possible, will tuck its nose in if you ease off the gas or brake, yet still has the necessary traction to get good exit speed… FWD and AWD cars are rubbish in GT5, so I only ever drive RWD cars (unless forced in to AWD for a specific event), and prefer mid engine cars if at all possible as these have the nicest balance – my favourite car in the game is the NSX Concept ’01, stock on comfort softs or tuned on sports hards.

A couple of quick tips before addressing individual settings..

1. Never install the chassis upgrade on any car – it just adds understeer
2. Don’t change the oil on a car if you’re working to a PPT limit – GT5 values power over torque, and not changing the oil allows you to run more power at the same PPT’s

Ride Height
In previous versions of the game, a low front, high rear was always the starting point for a tune as this reduced understeer. Pre update 2.09, GT5 worked the other way around – for some reason cars had less understeer with a high front/low rear (it also gave a 2-3% improvement in top speed), which was completely unrealistic (and looked terrible in replays!). This was discussed at length on GTPlanet, with some saying it was a programming error and others a bug in the physics model.

In the 2.09 update, PD changed the physics engine and the high front/low rear trick no longer worked. Low front/high rear doesn’t have as big an effect as high front/low rear did before the update, but it does help improve the balance.

As a starting point I’d always lower the front as much as possible then raise the rear incrementally in conjunction with other settings until I get a balance I like.

Ballast
The most important settings when you’re running to a power point limit is the relationship between power and ballast – ballast is the single most influential setting in dialling out corner entry understeer. Plus adding weight reduces PPTs and allows you to have more power in return.

When setting up a car for a PPT limited time trial I carry out all weight reductions (stage 3, windows, bonnet), then add full ballast at the rearmost position (50) for front engine cars – this obviously puts more of the weight to the rear and like a mid engined or rear engined car in real life, makes the car want to rotate on turn in.

Once I’ve added ballast at the rear I run a few laps to see how it feels - If the car oversteers on corner entry I’m happy as I know I can then use other settings to dial the balance back (the more it oversteers, the better!)... The Elise naturally oversteers on entry, so the ballast position didn’t need to be at 50 and 20 ended up giving the best balance. If it doesn’t oversteer, the next setting I’d go to is rear toe (which I’ll cover separately).

Springs
I don’t generally change spring too much unless I’m trying to correct a major handling issue. On the Lotus, the rear springs need to be hard to control the lateral weight shift on corner entry… it helps control ‘roll oversteer’ in conjunction with dampers and ARB’s.

Dampers
Have to admit that I’m a bit rubbish with dampers and I don’t really know how they work in GT5. I tend to run compression (bound) damping slightly lower than rebound, and will just play with the rates to see what effect they have.

On the Elise, the rear dampers are hard like the springs to help control lateral weight transfer at the rear. If you try the Elsie with rear springs at c.10 and dampers at c.5,4 with a softer ARB you’ll find it has almost unmanageable levels of turn in oversteer!

The front dampers are softer as there’s less weight on the front

ARB’s
Same as for springs and dampers… generally stiffer where the weight is, then adjust in conjunction with ballast/springs/dampers to fine tune the ballast.

Camber
Usually start with 2.0, 1.0 and adjust from there. There’s no hard fast rules on what will work with camber, but I start with the front and adjust to minimise mid corner understeer. I’ll then adjust the rear to manage the balance and traction.

Toe
Rear toe is the 2nd most important setting after ballast in reducing understeer.

You might have noticed that when you fit fully adjustable suspension you get a stock rear toe setting of +0.20. Positive rear toe is a killer as it wants to make the car go in a straight line. I almost always use negative rear toe to some extent… normally between -0.05 and -0.20.

Only time I use positive is on really powerful RWD cars on lower grip tyres – the current SLS seasonal at SSR5 is a good example of this. The SLS has 721bhp and runs sports hard tyres. With –ve rear toe exit oversteer can get a bit fishtaily, so I’m using +0.05 to help make the exit oversteer more predictable.

Front toe is less important, but helps mid corner grip and will always be negative to some extent – normally -0.10 to -0.20. Positive front toe gives an initial impression of quicker, more responsive steering, but the side effect is less mid corner grip, so avoid.

LSD
Another critical setting in maximising lap times. If you have the Accel setting too low you’ll give up exit speed, too high and the car will want to oversteer too much.

I usually start with 10/15/5, and work on the suspension to find the right balance, once I have this I’ll fine tune the diff to get the traction right.

Initial doesn’t seem to have much of an effect, so I’ll have this at 10-12 most of the time.

Accel is the important one – I start with 15 and if the outside tyre turns red under load on exits I’ll reduce it until the tyres change colour at the same time. If the inside tyre turns red 1st I increase the accel. Rare I’d have a setting outside a range of 10-20 and mostly it will be 12-15.

Decel will be at the lowest it can be (5) 99.9% of the time. A higher setting makes the car harder to turn. I’d rather deal with turn in or lift off oversteer by adjusting the suspension.

Wing
Used in conjunction with suspension and ballast to help adjust the balance – obviously you want this as low as possible as aero eats up PPTs. Wing also increases traction even in low speed corners - a bit of a error in the physics model IMO.

Gears
Easy trick with the gears to create a closely stacked set of ratios is to set the max speed to minimum (as far left as it will go), then move 1st gear fully left and 6th gear as far right as it will go. Then adjust the final until you get the top speed you want, before spreading the rest of the gears out between 1st and 6th.

For an even close stacked set you can adjust the final all the way to the right before adjusting the max speed to minimum, but I only find a need for this on low powered cars with a low top speed.

Brakes
Assuming you have ABS 1, which seems to have some sort of built in EBD…

Brake settings are a matter of personal choice and how you brake...which is why I don’t normally quote a brake setting on my tunes. I like to trail brake, so if the car understeers on the brakes whilst turning in I either reduce the front bias or increase the rear bias. Most of the time I’ll have rear bias 2 clicks higher than front, with a front setting that doesn’t turn the front tyres red under full braking from high speed.

I hope that helps… If that seems a bit long winded it’s really just the basics. The real skill is in managing the interaction between the various settings and having the consistency to be able to feel the effect of your changes.

Cheers,
Chris

Edited by Chris Stott on Tuesday 8th January 21:02

Edited by Chris Stott on Thursday 10th January 09:28

[AlfaDogvan]

brilliant Thanks Chris

my setup's are along the same lines, as your's but I have never been as aggressive or used the ballast. which make a lot of sense, also the LSD setup always been trial an error of me.

anyway I've never been able to get the RUF yellow bird even the slightest bit tame even though I love it. does anyone want to have a crack with this setup and tell me where I can improve.

Power - 477
Weight - 1081
PP - 536

Suspension
Ride H = -30/-10
Spring's = 7.0/16.0
dampers ex = 7/9
dampers co = 6/8
Anti Roll = 1/6
Camber = 2.0/1.5
Toe = -0.05/+0.20

LSD
Initial = 10
Accel = 13
Deccel = 7

Brakes 6/2 I tend to brake into corner's hence this odd balance.

Trans, I just put the speed to minimum and then set the FD to the longest setting (end's up at 203mph)

it's certainly the fastest and most stable I have had it.

thanks ADV

[Alfanatic]

Contrary to Chri's excelent advice above, have you tried a higher decel setting on the LSD? If you just shove that up to, say, 30, does that tame it a bit but mess up your trail braking? If so, there might be a happy medium, though I find the yellowbird snappy at high speeds whether its on the throttle or on the brakes, and the decel won't be any help there.

[AlfaDogvan]

Alfanatic said:

Contrary to Chri's excelent advice above, have you tried a higher decel setting on the LSD? If you just shove that up to, say, 30, does that tame it a bit but mess up your trail braking? If so, there might be a happy medium, though I find the yellowbird snappy at high speeds whether its on the throttle or on the brakes, and the decel won't be any help there.

Wow its only a ps3 game! Relax there are beers in the fridge if you need one.

And pretty much all my cars have the deccel at 5, even before Chris write up. But the Yb isn't like anything else in the game, even the Btr is more stable.

Anyway After alot of tweaking it the last thing i tried, and it helps to stabilize the car when you back off the throttle. But not on the brakes, its probably not the best setup but as i use a controller even the triggers are way to on off for the Ruf.

Take the fast sections of the ring for example, there's lots of it you don't need to brake for but you can't go through flat either.

Im by no means a Gt5 god,

Adv

[Alfanatic]

Sorry, I was only trying to help

[Chris Stott]

The Yellowbird is a nightmare... most of the tuners on GTPlanet claim to have tamed it, but when I look at their set ups they are all built on race soft tyres, and anything feels stable on those.

You can dial out the stupid amounts of liftoff oversteer by using high LSD decel, hard rear suspension, high +ve rear toe, but then it just understeers like a shopping trolley. I've never been able to get a good balance on the car... plus it has no traction unless you stick it on very grippy tyres.

I think PD have screwed the handling model on the Yellowbird and it's a lost cause to be honest. If I want some rear engined fun I'd use the RGT, which has a much nicer feel.

[AlfaDogvan]

Chris Stott said:

The Yellowbird is a nightmare... most of the tuners on GTPlanet claim to have tamed it, but when I look at their set ups they are all built on race soft tyres, and anything feels stable on those.

You can dial out the stupid amounts of liftoff oversteer by using high LSD decel, hard rear suspension, high +ve rear toe, but then it just understeers like a shopping trolley. I've never been able to get a good balance on the car... plus it has no traction unless you stick it on very grippy tyres.

I think PD have screwed the handling model on the Yellowbird and it's a lost cause to be honest. If I want some rear engined fun I'd use the RGT, which has a much nicer feel.

the RGT is a weapon, the YB's lack of grip is very frustrating. especially as I have chunky fingers so gently feeing the power on with a controller is really hard. plus if the pressures on I tend to be a bit lead footed so end up going slower.

ADV

[Chris Stott]

Only thing use the Yellowbird for is drifting.

It makes a great drift car as it transitions so well with the rear biased weight distribution. Even running comfort hards on the front and comfort softs on the rear you can easily initiate a drift using a small fient rather than needing a load of handbrake. After that it will hold a massive angle.

[RenesisEvo]

Chris Stott said:

I think PD have screwed the handling model on the Yellowbird and it's a lost cause to be honest. If I want some rear engined fun I'd use the RGT, which has a much nicer feel.

I disagree, to me it feels like it should. I'm running a G27 with the steering on the simulation setting, for reference. Get the nose right into the corner early and have the steer with the throttle, using very small angles of slide - not big drifts, just gently hanging the back out with a degree or two of opposite lock, using the throttle to point it the way you want it to go. Once you get the hang of it I find the car a real joy to drive. It only gets difficult when you are too aggressive, because it will go into a large, unmanageable slide very quickly, which makes it feel slow and uncontrollable. But keep it smooth and considered and it's brilliant. I agree that an RGT is faster and more versatile, but I don't find it quite as much fun.

I don't wish to pollute any of the other ongoing threads on here - how do I join up to a PH GT5 series? I'm sick of the usual online cretins. Last week I out-braked myself at the start but avoided everyone. Then drove a really clean race, only one overtake made, and I left plenty of room. No contact before or after. Race ends, I got kicked out! Why? Yesterday I got kicked out because the guy behind spun off after repeatedly nudging my bumper whilst I held the racing line (fast section on the 'Ring up to Klostertal). The driver repeatedly beeped the horn whilst sitting on my bumper. I don't see why beeping your horn is an entitlement to an overtake - it has to be earnt. But given a clean move down the inside I will leave space and surrender the position. Totally infuriating.

Anyway, if anyone can point me in the direction of a series I can join with sensible, clean drivers I'd be really grateful.

[Darkdice]

RenesisEvo said:

I disagree, to me it feels like it should. I'm running a G27 with the steering on the simulation setting, for reference. Get the nose right into the corner early and have the steer with the throttle, using very small angles of slide - not big drifts, just gently hanging the back out with a degree or two of opposite lock, using the throttle to point it the way you want it to go. Once you get the hang of it I find the car a real joy to drive. It only gets difficult when you are too aggressive, because it will go into a large, unmanageable slide very quickly, which makes it feel slow and uncontrollable. But keep it smooth and considered and it's brilliant. I agree that an RGT is faster and more versatile, but I don't find it quite as much fun.

I don't wish to pollute any of the other ongoing threads on here - how do I join up to a PH GT5 series? I'm sick of the usual online cretins. Last week I out-braked myself at the start but avoided everyone. Then drove a really clean race, only one overtake made, and I left plenty of room. No contact before or after. Race ends, I got kicked out! Why? Yesterday I got kicked out because the guy behind spun off after repeatedly nudging my bumper whilst I held the racing line (fast section on the 'Ring up to Klostertal). The driver repeatedly beeped the horn whilst sitting on my bumper. I don't see why beeping your horn is an entitlement to an overtake - it has to be earnt. But given a clean move down the inside I will leave space and surrender the position. Totally infuriating.

Anyway, if anyone can point me in the direction of a series I can join with sensible, clean drivers I'd be really grateful.

I run a Sunday night champ if you are interested - always looking for new drivers see thread here
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[CJ1987]

RenesisEvo said:

I disagree, to me it feels like it should. I'm running a G27 with the steering on the simulation setting, for reference. Get the nose right into the corner early and have the steer with the throttle, using very small angles of slide - not big drifts, just gently hanging the back out with a degree or two of opposite lock, using the throttle to point it the way you want it to go. Once you get the hang of it I find the car a real joy to drive. It only gets difficult when you are too aggressive, because it will go into a large, unmanageable slide very quickly, which makes it feel slow and uncontrollable. But keep it smooth and considered and it's brilliant. I agree that an RGT is faster and more versatile, but I don't find it quite as much fun.

I don't wish to pollute any of the other ongoing threads on here - how do I join up to a PH GT5 series? I'm sick of the usual online cretins. Last week I out-braked myself at the start but avoided everyone. Then drove a really clean race, only one overtake made, and I left plenty of room. No contact before or after. Race ends, I got kicked out! Why? Yesterday I got kicked out because the guy behind spun off after repeatedly nudging my bumper whilst I held the racing line (fast section on the 'Ring up to Klostertal). The driver repeatedly beeped the horn whilst sitting on my bumper. I don't see why beeping your horn is an entitlement to an overtake - it has to be earnt. But given a clean move down the inside I will leave space and surrender the position. Totally infuriating.

Anyway, if anyone can point me in the direction of a series I can join with sensible, clean drivers I'd be really grateful.

im currently running another champ with a good bunch of guys who race as cleanly as possible and dont throw a hissy fit if you accidently touch their cars, here's our thread also on page 1 there's a link to the highlight videos so far this season to give an idea what it's like :

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[Chris Stott]

RenesisEvo said:

I disagree, to me it feels like it should. I'm running a G27 with the steering on the simulation setting, for reference. Get the nose right into the corner early and have the steer with the throttle, using very small angles of slide - not big drifts, just gently hanging the back out with a degree or two of opposite lock, using the throttle to point it the way you want it to go. Once you get the hang of it I find the car a real joy to drive. It only gets difficult when you are too aggressive, because it will go into a large, unmanageable slide very quickly, which makes it feel slow and uncontrollable. But keep it smooth and considered and it's brilliant. I agree that an RGT is faster and more versatile, but I don't find it quite as much fun.

What tyres are you running it on? I've tried a few times to tune it at stock power on sports hards for the 'Ring and failed to get any sort of decent balance... and I'm a fair driver and a decent tuner. IME, it has way too much lift-off oversteer, and the only way you can cure that results in an understeering shopping trolley!

I a have a G27 too, nice wheel.. the 'simulation' setting doesn't affect the G series wheels.

[Allaloneatron]

CJ1987 said:

RenesisEvo said:

I disagree, to me it feels like it should. I'm running a G27 with the steering on the simulation setting, for reference. Get the nose right into the corner early and have the steer with the throttle, using very small angles of slide - not big drifts, just gently hanging the back out with a degree or two of opposite lock, using the throttle to point it the way you want it to go. Once you get the hang of it I find the car a real joy to drive. It only gets difficult when you are too aggressive, because it will go into a large, unmanageable slide very quickly, which makes it feel slow and uncontrollable. But keep it smooth and considered and it's brilliant. I agree that an RGT is faster and more versatile, but I don't find it quite as much fun.

I don't wish to pollute any of the other ongoing threads on here - how do I join up to a PH GT5 series? I'm sick of the usual online cretins. Last week I out-braked myself at the start but avoided everyone. Then drove a really clean race, only one overtake made, and I left plenty of room. No contact before or after. Race ends, I got kicked out! Why? Yesterday I got kicked out because the guy behind spun off after repeatedly nudging my bumper whilst I held the racing line (fast section on the 'Ring up to Klostertal). The driver repeatedly beeped the horn whilst sitting on my bumper. I don't see why beeping your horn is an entitlement to an overtake - it has to be earnt. But given a clean move down the inside I will leave space and surrender the position. Totally infuriating.

Anyway, if anyone can point me in the direction of a series I can join with sensible, clean drivers I'd be really grateful.

im currently running another champ with a good bunch of guys who race as cleanly as possible and dont throw a hissy fit if you accidently touch their cars, here's our thread also on page 1 there's a link to the highlight videos so far this season to give an idea what it's like :

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Yes its a great fun champ... but please dont watch the highlights from last weeks swim at the 'Ring'.

[CJ1987]

2014 corvette stingray will be added to playstation store tomorrow cant wait

http://www.gtplanet.net/2014-corvette-stingray-com...

[zebedee]

Has the new shape car been officially revealed then, I must have missed that!

[CJ1987]

zebedee said:

Has the new shape car been officially revealed then, I must have missed that!

believe it was only revealed a few days ago