The Last of Us. Part 2
Discussion
We have been here before with movies and now it appears to be spreading to video games.
They work their agenda into the storyline and then accuse people of being incels if they react to it. The exact same playbook is being followed as it was with the likes of the "Ghostbusters" reboot.
People dont have a problem with female characters, or indeed female lesbian characters. They have a problem with divisive SJW politics being forced into the franchises they know and love. Whether that be film franchises or video game franchises.
Fortunately the warnings were out there before people parted with the hard earned cash (unlike with The Last jedi). So most will have been able to go into it with their eyes open and choose whether they want to support the agenda with their money.
They work their agenda into the storyline and then accuse people of being incels if they react to it. The exact same playbook is being followed as it was with the likes of the "Ghostbusters" reboot.
People dont have a problem with female characters, or indeed female lesbian characters. They have a problem with divisive SJW politics being forced into the franchises they know and love. Whether that be film franchises or video game franchises.
Fortunately the warnings were out there before people parted with the hard earned cash (unlike with The Last jedi). So most will have been able to go into it with their eyes open and choose whether they want to support the agenda with their money.
JagLover said:
We have been here before with movies and now it appears to be spreading to video games.
They work their agenda into the storyline and then accuse people of being incels if they react to it. The exact same playbook is being followed as it was with the likes of the "Ghostbusters" reboot.
People dont have a problem with female characters, or indeed female lesbian characters. They have a problem with divisive SJW politics being forced into the franchises they know and love. Whether that be film franchises or video game franchises.
Fortunately the warnings were out there before people parted with the hard earned cash (unlike with The Last jedi). So most will have been able to go into it with their eyes open and choose whether they want to support the agenda with their money.
Having played it through in its entirety now, there’s nothing in the game that I think anyone could reasonably object to...They work their agenda into the storyline and then accuse people of being incels if they react to it. The exact same playbook is being followed as it was with the likes of the "Ghostbusters" reboot.
People dont have a problem with female characters, or indeed female lesbian characters. They have a problem with divisive SJW politics being forced into the franchises they know and love. Whether that be film franchises or video game franchises.
Fortunately the warnings were out there before people parted with the hard earned cash (unlike with The Last jedi). So most will have been able to go into it with their eyes open and choose whether they want to support the agenda with their money.
Did they have to make Ellie a lesbian? No, but equally why not? Plus, it’s already canon from the first game’s DLC. Did they have to have a trans character in there? No, but it gave motivation for a couple of characters to leave a religious sect...
There’s nothing overly jarring in the game, in my view.JagLover said:
We have been here before with movies and now it appears to be spreading to video games.
They work their agenda into the storyline and then accuse people of being incels if they react to it. The exact same playbook is being followed as it was with the likes of the "Ghostbusters" reboot.
People dont have a problem with female characters, or indeed female lesbian characters. They have a problem with divisive SJW politics being forced into the franchises they know and love. Whether that be film franchises or video game franchises.
Fortunately the warnings were out there before people parted with the hard earned cash (unlike with The Last jedi). So most will have been able to go into it with their eyes open and choose whether they want to support the agenda with their money.
There are certainly examples of media trying to "push an agenda", but at the same time is that necessarily a bad thing?They work their agenda into the storyline and then accuse people of being incels if they react to it. The exact same playbook is being followed as it was with the likes of the "Ghostbusters" reboot.
People dont have a problem with female characters, or indeed female lesbian characters. They have a problem with divisive SJW politics being forced into the franchises they know and love. Whether that be film franchises or video game franchises.
Fortunately the warnings were out there before people parted with the hard earned cash (unlike with The Last jedi). So most will have been able to go into it with their eyes open and choose whether they want to support the agenda with their money.
I think the real problem is when this motivation is manipulated for commercial gain. Sony were quite happy to act outraged to capitalise on the whole furore about Ghostbusters, and fan the flames of the "incels vs SJWs" debate like it was some kind of watershed moment because it galvanised people into paying money to watch it. It wasn't though, it was just a poor quality film that didn't need to be made.
I don't get the sense that TLOU2 was pushing an agenda, rather than the auteur wanted to punish (?) the fans for being too invested in the original partnership, or maybe he simply wanted to make such an edgy game that people cut themselves on it. It seems rather sinister to me that the game makes the player jump staight into the shoes of the character responsible for that event, with the aim to make them sympathetic as the game went on. I get the shock element of it, but at the same time it feels rather like an arduous journey to put the player through, an endurance test if you will. It's not something I had any interest in taking part in, so I was grateful for the leaks and cancelled my pre-order.
It is immensely tiring, though, that debate in all forms gets reduced down to its most inflammatory level - shills vs incels/bigots, etc. There are more weary articles than you can count conflating all criticism of this game with bigoted views, etc, whilst not addressing any of the legitimate complaints about the story, or even giving people who are just sad that the second game went in the direction it did any consideration whatsoever. It is perfectly acceptable to be unhappy, nay emotional, about a story not unfolding the way you wanted it to.
TLOU and its DLC were all well received, incidentally, which undermines the whole "you only hate it because you're a bigot" argument somewhat.
Durzel said:
There are certainly examples of media trying to "push an agenda", but at the same time is that necessarily a bad thing?
.
Depends on the nature of the agenda..
There are many tired claims of complainers being "Incels" or "neckbeards" who do not like strong women. In reality the sub culture many of the complainers come from is sci-fi and that has been progressive in having strong female characters for decades.
The issue is not having a female character. It is also not about having a female character who is a lesbian. Probably helps the average male player identify with her more if she is also into girls.
The issue, as with all such Films/TV shows/Games that push the "agenda", is usually in the treatment of male characters. Who usually exist only to be shown up by their smarter female counterparts or as cannon fodder for them.
Women can be raised up without men cast down and many movies and TV shows manage that very well as they haven't become infected by this toxic misandrist culture.
JagLover said:
The issue, as with all such Films/TV shows/Games that push the "agenda", is usually in the treatment of male characters. Who usually exist only to be shown up by their smarter female counterparts or as cannon fodder for them.
Women can be raised up without men cast down and many movies and TV shows manage that very well as they haven't become infected by this toxic misandrist culture.
This is not a problem in the last of us that I played, not least because the primary protagonist and antagonist are both women... At no point that I recall were the male characters cast down or unnecessarily presented as idiots or inferior to the female characters.Women can be raised up without men cast down and many movies and TV shows manage that very well as they haven't become infected by this toxic misandrist culture.
Durzel said:
I don't get the sense that TLOU2 was pushing an agenda, rather than the auteur wanted to punish (?) the fans for being too invested in the original partnership, or maybe he simply wanted to make such an edgy game that people cut themselves on it. It seems rather sinister to me that the game makes the player jump staight into the shoes of the character responsible for that event, with the aim to make them sympathetic as the game went on. I get the shock element of it, but at the same time it feels rather like an arduous journey to put the player through, an endurance test if you will. It's not something I had any interest in taking part in, so I was grateful for the leaks and cancelled my pre-order.
The switch in main character is jarring, precisely because the game has been so good at making you hate them. It won’t work for some people, and I’ll admit I had to push through the first part of playing as them. It does make it a more “interesting” game though.You could quite easily have had a last of us 2 (as opposed to part 2) with Abby as the main character, battling against the scars, and you’d have been playing much the same game from a gameplay perspective, and cheerfully getting away with murder... The interesting bit about this game is it makes you see things from the other side. Some people will like that, some won’t, and that’s entirely fine.
JagLover said:
Durzel said:
There are certainly examples of media trying to "push an agenda", but at the same time is that necessarily a bad thing?
.
Depends on the nature of the agenda..
There are many tired claims of complainers being "Incels" or "neckbeards" who do not like strong women. In reality the sub culture many of the complainers come from is sci-fi and that has been progressive in having strong female characters for decades.
The issue is not having a female character. It is also not about having a female character who is a lesbian. Probably helps the average male player identify with her more if she is also into girls.
The issue, as with all such Films/TV shows/Games that push the "agenda", is usually in the treatment of male characters. Who usually exist only to be shown up by their smarter female counterparts or as cannon fodder for them.
Women can be raised up without men cast down and many movies and TV shows manage that very well as they haven't become infected by this toxic misandrist culture.
I haven't played this yet, but really enjoyed the first one.
For the discussion above, I think it's now used as a way to shut down discussion.
It's much easier to blame peoples dislike of something by calling them a bigot, rather than address the very major flaws in the product.
Look at The Last Jedi and Disney's defence of it as a perfect example, they managed to alienate an entire fanbase by their accusations, rather than admitting the film was an absolute mess that shat all over The Force Awakens and Star Wars law in general. But when it was criticised, the response was that it wasn't liked because it's bigots complaining, I think RJ even used the term "man-babies" at one point. Great way to alienate the vast majority of fans that will actually spend a fortune on merch.
With the jarring nature of having to play as the antagonist, this also seems to be a new thing in Hollywood and the media in that there must be a reason why people are bad. In the old days, the baddie was just a baddie, these days there has to be a reason for it. See the Maleficent films, these explain why she's evil, because of something that happened in her past (in true current Disney style in this case because a bloke let her down!).
Maybe it's all about the modern approach of teaching kids that they aren't bad, but they've made bad choices?
For the discussion above, I think it's now used as a way to shut down discussion.
It's much easier to blame peoples dislike of something by calling them a bigot, rather than address the very major flaws in the product.
Look at The Last Jedi and Disney's defence of it as a perfect example, they managed to alienate an entire fanbase by their accusations, rather than admitting the film was an absolute mess that shat all over The Force Awakens and Star Wars law in general. But when it was criticised, the response was that it wasn't liked because it's bigots complaining, I think RJ even used the term "man-babies" at one point. Great way to alienate the vast majority of fans that will actually spend a fortune on merch.
With the jarring nature of having to play as the antagonist, this also seems to be a new thing in Hollywood and the media in that there must be a reason why people are bad. In the old days, the baddie was just a baddie, these days there has to be a reason for it. See the Maleficent films, these explain why she's evil, because of something that happened in her past (in true current Disney style in this case because a bloke let her down!).
Maybe it's all about the modern approach of teaching kids that they aren't bad, but they've made bad choices?
Edited by AshVX220 on Wednesday 8th July 12:28
I personally think that Abby killing Joel should've happened much later in the game, as it would have made the whole "asking the player uncomfortable questions" more resonant. Imagine playing through the game as Abby, facilitating her survival, only to have that choice (or non-choice) sprung upon you? People will have still felt bad about it, and conflicted, but it would've been earned.
As it is it feels more edgy and shallow than earnest.
I also happen to feel that the trailers misled people too, and fell below the threshold for just typical misdirection into outright manipulation, particularly as actual ingame scenes were recreated with different characters. People were misled into thinking that Joel would be involved heavily in the game. It's obvious why this was done - as the scene in question was supposed to be shocking, and also - more cynically - if it was known that was the trajectory of the story then I think a lot of people would've not bought the game at all.
My overriding feeling with this game, punctuated by how Neil Druckmann has been behaving on Twitter since, is that he wanted to push buttons with it, and that the story and the quality of it was secondary to that objective this time around. I personaly wanted to see the next chapter of Joel and Ellie's story, not be manipulated by the auteur, so I just made the conscious choice to opt out.
As it is it feels more edgy and shallow than earnest.
I also happen to feel that the trailers misled people too, and fell below the threshold for just typical misdirection into outright manipulation, particularly as actual ingame scenes were recreated with different characters. People were misled into thinking that Joel would be involved heavily in the game. It's obvious why this was done - as the scene in question was supposed to be shocking, and also - more cynically - if it was known that was the trajectory of the story then I think a lot of people would've not bought the game at all.
My overriding feeling with this game, punctuated by how Neil Druckmann has been behaving on Twitter since, is that he wanted to push buttons with it, and that the story and the quality of it was secondary to that objective this time around. I personaly wanted to see the next chapter of Joel and Ellie's story, not be manipulated by the auteur, so I just made the conscious choice to opt out.
Durzel said:
I personally think that Abby killing Joel should've happened much later in the game, as it would have made the whole "asking the player uncomfortable questions" more resonant. Imagine playing through the game as Abby, facilitating her survival, only to have that choice (or non-choice) sprung upon you? People will have still felt bad about it, and conflicted, but it would've been earned.
I agree, I think if the same story beats were hit with more play time as Abby before the spoiler it would have been very interesting.You do play as both characters earlier on, but it should be spelt out more that Abby is hunting down someone who did something undefined and terrible when she was younger, spend a bit more time getting the player fully invested in the revenge plot, and then have the reveal of who she’s hunting sprung on the player.
That said, there would still have been significant complaints as hero turns to villain. (Which hero, which villain are spoilery, but take it any and all ways.)
DanL said:
agree, I think if the same story beats were hit with more play time as Abby before the spoiler it would have been very interesting.
You do play as both characters earlier on, but it should be spelt out more that Abby is hunting down someone who did something undefined and terrible when she was younger, spend a bit more time getting the player fully invested in the revenge plot, and then have the reveal of who she’s hunting sprung on the player.
That said, there would still have been significant complaints as hero turns to villain. (Which hero, which villain are spoilery, but take it any and all ways.)
Exactly. You do play as both characters earlier on, but it should be spelt out more that Abby is hunting down someone who did something undefined and terrible when she was younger, spend a bit more time getting the player fully invested in the revenge plot, and then have the reveal of who she’s hunting sprung on the player.
That said, there would still have been significant complaints as hero turns to villain. (Which hero, which villain are spoilery, but take it any and all ways.)
I think the complaints would've been far more mild and would have been largely from people who just didn't want Joel to die irrespective of his misdeeds. But I think most players would accept that Joel's fate was of his own making, "past catching up to him", etc..
I actually think it would've been quite brilliant for the player to have just picked up clues about who she was hunting, with all the twists that could've had. Some people would call it early, but others would still be surprised. I have Westworld season 1 in mind in terms of thinking about the "Man in Black" reveal, how the clues were there along the way but they had greater resonance after the fact.
If anything the fact that this is an interactive medium means its asking a lot of the player to endure playing as that character after that pivotal event, happening so early on in the game. That's why I feel the way it was handled was more about the auteur wanting to push buttons than it being in service of a story, with characters acting in a way that has been previously established and embraced.
Did any of you check out the photo mode?
You can go into this menu any time during gameplay and admire the amazing graphics by panning around the scene, playing with depth of field etc. Had this been a ps5 showcase, I would have been impressed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZcqVWk3Ypw&fe...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EOfIcz3GKM
You can go into this menu any time during gameplay and admire the amazing graphics by panning around the scene, playing with depth of field etc. Had this been a ps5 showcase, I would have been impressed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZcqVWk3Ypw&fe...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EOfIcz3GKM
Edited by Kessler on Wednesday 8th July 16:46
The details are amazing. The bloody footprints after stepping in a pool of blood, Ellie's wet clothes and backpack content after a swim, the interaction between enemies etc etc...I feel really sorry for the Naughty Dog staff for taking so much sh*t from butthurt people before they even played the game. The dedication to make the most technically stunning game for the ps4 should be appreciated. It's interesting that reviewers like Kallie from Gamespot never mentioned the visual and sound design. How you can overlook that is mindblowing.
Caught the moment my hammer broke when sinking it into the cheek of an enemy. The brutality of this game is on another level!
Caught the moment my hammer broke when sinking it into the cheek of an enemy. The brutality of this game is on another level!
Edited by Kessler on Wednesday 8th July 16:40
I finished it a few nights ago, amazing game and great storyline. Strange playing as Abby but nice to get her view on it all. I made sure i didnt look/read/hear any spoilers, i didnt even know you played as Abby, surely this is the only way to play games?
I dont understand people who activily go looking for spoilers before playing the game just so they can moan about it without ever playing the game
I dont understand people who activily go looking for spoilers before playing the game just so they can moan about it without ever playing the game
AWRacing said:
I finished it a few nights ago, amazing game and great storyline. Strange playing as Abby but nice to get her view on it all. I made sure i didnt look/read/hear any spoilers, i didnt even know you played as Abby, surely this is the only way to play games?
I dont understand people who activily go looking for spoilers before playing the game just so they can moan about it without ever playing the game
Last of Us was arguably the best PS3 game and had a huge following - people feel passionately about the characters and the story so what ND did to Joel would of course create a stir. But to the point where people refuse to play the game and make a conclusion based on the leak is really narrow-minded and stupid. In regards to the WOKE/social justice warrior (SJW) elements of the game - yep, they are definitely there. Usually that puts me off, but the gameplay and design is of such a high quality that it doesn't distract too much. The PS4 definitely went out on a high note. I dont understand people who activily go looking for spoilers before playing the game just so they can moan about it without ever playing the game
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