Grade 2 Listed Houses
Discussion
Just how much ball ache are they? Got a second viewing on one tomorrow, and I know that it needs a bay window replacing, and a few other windows need repair sooner rather than later.
What's the process for this? Would i need to get the local preservation person from the council approve the work before it's done? Or after?
Anything else I should know about listed buildings? I'm all ears!
What's the process for this? Would i need to get the local preservation person from the council approve the work before it's done? Or after?
Anything else I should know about listed buildings? I'm all ears!
Fast Bug said:
What's the process for this? Would i need to get the local preservation person from the council approve the work before it's done? Or after?
Before. There is a process called 'Listed Building Consent' that you need to go through for most work to the fabric of the building.If the choice was between two almost identical houses, one Listed and the other not, i would never again, have the Listed version. If you just wanted to live in the house, no problem, but if you were minded to improve/change anything, rather too much seems to depend on the views of your local Listed Buildings officer. To be diplomatic, some are better than others. 
Any changes that require Planning also require Listed Building permission too, so yet another hoop to jump through.
For example, to change from a septic tank (obviously underground) to a treatment plant, (also underground) required Listed permission as it was within the curtilage of our building. New windows have to be wooden framed, not plastic or aluminium. Just a couple of instances, most would not give a second thought to.
Good luck, if you go for it.
Any changes that require Planning also require Listed Building permission too, so yet another hoop to jump through.
For example, to change from a septic tank (obviously underground) to a treatment plant, (also underground) required Listed permission as it was within the curtilage of our building. New windows have to be wooden framed, not plastic or aluminium. Just a couple of instances, most would not give a second thought to.
Good luck, if you go for it.
Every friend who has a listed house has had issues. You seem totally beholden to your local listed building planning rep and frankly, a lot of them sound like small-minded, Little Englander jobsworths.
Everything costs more and takes longer, it seems.
And then you have the major issues. My old boss has a listed Elizabethan manor house. Walled garden needed a new wall - and he was not allowed to simply let it fall over. He let it fall over and the listed building folks came down on him like a (heh) tonne of bricks. a few hundred meters of custom, hand-made bricks and using some reclaimed one, at about a thousand pounds per metre length of wall.
He was very lucky he made a million a year or so. Still made a dent on the finances.
Everything costs more and takes longer, it seems.
And then you have the major issues. My old boss has a listed Elizabethan manor house. Walled garden needed a new wall - and he was not allowed to simply let it fall over. He let it fall over and the listed building folks came down on him like a (heh) tonne of bricks. a few hundred meters of custom, hand-made bricks and using some reclaimed one, at about a thousand pounds per metre length of wall.
He was very lucky he made a million a year or so. Still made a dent on the finances.
Luckily there's nothing we'd want to change about the house. And no walled gardens either thankfully! Just a bay window that needs replacing, a few that need repair and the front door needs some love. I can see why the current owner has let the windows slide rather than get it replaced.
To give another perspective, we live in a grade 2 listed house in a conservation area and have always been able to do what we want. That said, we’ve not tried to do anything outlandish.
Building and maintenance works aren’t cheap but I put that down to the age of the building rather than it being listed.
Building and maintenance works aren’t cheap but I put that down to the age of the building rather than it being listed.
Whilst I wouldn't go out of my way to buy listed there are a huge amount of listed properties and people buy, alter and repair them. It's not impossible.
Mines grade 2 listed, and I've not found the local conservation officer to be a problem. Indeed she is quite pragmatic and reasonable.
Since buying our house we have knocked down old out buildings and removed an old utility room. We have then added an extension of 90m2, new entrance gates (widened from originals) and have plans approved for a cart lodge which is going up in the spring. In the old original part of the house we have replaced 2 rotten windows, cut into a sole plate and painted the house a completely different colour. All of this with LBC of course.
Plans had to be sympathetic to the old part of the house and in keeping with this so as not to take the visual focus off the original.
We even have apotropaic marks on several beams near the fireplace in one room. Stuff like this I love and for which I can live with an added level of beaurocracy with the planning department.
Appreciate my views are only down to this personal experience but it really hasn't been a ball ache. Getting the windows approved for the extention took a fair few emails back and forth to agree the profile of them but it wasn't a show stopper.
Extention was designed by a local architect who had lots of experience of the local planners and heritage team and did a lot of the engagement for us too.
Mines grade 2 listed, and I've not found the local conservation officer to be a problem. Indeed she is quite pragmatic and reasonable.
Since buying our house we have knocked down old out buildings and removed an old utility room. We have then added an extension of 90m2, new entrance gates (widened from originals) and have plans approved for a cart lodge which is going up in the spring. In the old original part of the house we have replaced 2 rotten windows, cut into a sole plate and painted the house a completely different colour. All of this with LBC of course.
Plans had to be sympathetic to the old part of the house and in keeping with this so as not to take the visual focus off the original.
We even have apotropaic marks on several beams near the fireplace in one room. Stuff like this I love and for which I can live with an added level of beaurocracy with the planning department.
Appreciate my views are only down to this personal experience but it really hasn't been a ball ache. Getting the windows approved for the extention took a fair few emails back and forth to agree the profile of them but it wasn't a show stopper.
Extention was designed by a local architect who had lots of experience of the local planners and heritage team and did a lot of the engagement for us too.
Edited by Last Visit on Wednesday 28th October 20:29
Fast Bug said:
Luckily there's nothing we'd want to change about the house. And no walled gardens either thankfully! Just a bay window that needs replacing, a few that need repair and the front door needs some love. I can see why the current owner has let the windows slide rather than get it replaced.
You would, I believe, likely need to replace like for like. For example, if single-glazed, the work you could do without permission would be to replace with the same.You would deal with the Conservation Officer for the area to have a conversation about possibilities. There are companies who offer double-glazed units appropriate for older properties that might/could/should be acceptable to some COs. Expect them to cost more than 'normal' units ;-)
Some COs might be more like power-crazed nutters, but who knows for your area ;-)
We've been lucky enough to own a thatched grade II listed cottage for 20 years now. A second home we let to lucky guests
No desires to make any major changes. Small newer rear extensions already have double glazed windows, so replacing those was easy. Gorgeous garden. We do feel like we are 'custodians' rather than owners, but that is okay too!
If it meets your needs (accommodation, heating, grounds), and the price is right, I wouldn't hesitate.
BUT...given two identical houses, one listed, one not....I'd probably chose the unlisted one. Pretty unlikely scenario though ;-)
Last Visit said:
Whilst I wouldn't go out of my way to buy listed there are a huge amount of listed properties and people buy, alter and repair them. It's not impossible.
Mines grade 2 listed, and I've not found the local conservation officer to be a problem. Indeed she is quite pragmatic and reasonable.
Since buying our house we have knocked down old out buildings and removed an old utility room. We have then added an extension of 90m2, new entrance gates (widened from originals) and have plans approved for a cart lodge which is going up in the spring. In the old original part of the house we have replaced 2 rotten windows, cut into a sole plate and painted the house a completely different colour. All of this with LBC of course.
Appreciate my views are only down to this personal experience but it really hasn't been a ball ache. Getting the windows approved for the extention took a fair few emails back and forth to agree the profile of them but it wasn't a show stopper.
Extention was designed by a local architect who had lots of experience of the local planners and heritage team and did a lot of the engagement for us too.
Good points, & there is (I believe) a trend towards the ideas that it is better for Listed Buildings to be "lived in" than kept as crumbling museum pieces....I imagine modern thinking Conservation Officers would be more pragmatic than their counterparts from 30+ years ago!Mines grade 2 listed, and I've not found the local conservation officer to be a problem. Indeed she is quite pragmatic and reasonable.
Since buying our house we have knocked down old out buildings and removed an old utility room. We have then added an extension of 90m2, new entrance gates (widened from originals) and have plans approved for a cart lodge which is going up in the spring. In the old original part of the house we have replaced 2 rotten windows, cut into a sole plate and painted the house a completely different colour. All of this with LBC of course.
Appreciate my views are only down to this personal experience but it really hasn't been a ball ache. Getting the windows approved for the extention took a fair few emails back and forth to agree the profile of them but it wasn't a show stopper.
Extention was designed by a local architect who had lots of experience of the local planners and heritage team and did a lot of the engagement for us too.
mikeiow said:
Last Visit said:
Whilst I wouldn't go out of my way to buy listed there are a huge amount of listed properties and people buy, alter and repair them. It's not impossible.
Mines grade 2 listed, and I've not found the local conservation officer to be a problem. Indeed she is quite pragmatic and reasonable.
Since buying our house we have knocked down old out buildings and removed an old utility room. We have then added an extension of 90m2, new entrance gates (widened from originals) and have plans approved for a cart lodge which is going up in the spring. In the old original part of the house we have replaced 2 rotten windows, cut into a sole plate and painted the house a completely different colour. All of this with LBC of course.
Appreciate my views are only down to this personal experience but it really hasn't been a ball ache. Getting the windows approved for the extention took a fair few emails back and forth to agree the profile of them but it wasn't a show stopper.
Extention was designed by a local architect who had lots of experience of the local planners and heritage team and did a lot of the engagement for us too.
Good points, & there is (I believe) a trend towards the ideas that it is better for Listed Buildings to be "lived in" than kept as crumbling museum pieces....I imagine modern thinking Conservation Officers would be more pragmatic than their counterparts from 30+ years ago!Mines grade 2 listed, and I've not found the local conservation officer to be a problem. Indeed she is quite pragmatic and reasonable.
Since buying our house we have knocked down old out buildings and removed an old utility room. We have then added an extension of 90m2, new entrance gates (widened from originals) and have plans approved for a cart lodge which is going up in the spring. In the old original part of the house we have replaced 2 rotten windows, cut into a sole plate and painted the house a completely different colour. All of this with LBC of course.
Appreciate my views are only down to this personal experience but it really hasn't been a ball ache. Getting the windows approved for the extention took a fair few emails back and forth to agree the profile of them but it wasn't a show stopper.
Extention was designed by a local architect who had lots of experience of the local planners and heritage team and did a lot of the engagement for us too.
We have also added central heating to ours and whilst we havent dragged it into the 21st century we have given it a ventle nudge and everything is still in keeping with the original building. The out buildings we knocked down were hideous corrugated iron roofed things and the utility room was a 'modern' add on from approx 1960 or so. Original and main part of the old house is circa 1720.
With the extention, part of it (approx 40m2) is virtually flat roofed (5 degree pitch) and we had to go with lead or zinc rather than what would have been a cheaper single ply membrane as a roof covering, this being an example of some of the conditions applied. We went with zinc I may add which looks very in keeping I feel.
Spurry said:
Any changes that require Planning and a great many that don't also require Listed Building permission too
My addition in bold.For a 'normal' house, only alterations that impact on the external appearance need Planning permission (as a general rule), and even then you're allowed to do quite a lot under Permitted Development.
For a Listed building any works (internal or external) that can be considered to affect its character require Listed Building Consent, regardless of whether they need Planning Permission.
I guess a lot of whether you should consider buying a Listed house depends on how well you get on with Bureaucracy and being told what you can and can't do by others. If you're not keen on either, you might find it a very frustrating experience indeed.
85Carrera said:
To give another perspective, we live in a grade 2 listed house in a conservation area and have always been able to do what we want. That said, we’ve not tried to do anything outlandish.
Building and maintenance works aren’t cheap but I put that down to the age of the building rather than it being listed.
Likewise. Building and maintenance works aren’t cheap but I put that down to the age of the building rather than it being listed.
If you understand the listed status, it’s not a problem. What you can’t do is just treat them like an unlisted home and expect to do whatever you want and/or might normally be permitted.
Its not a house that we want or needs knocking about to be honest. The only thing that would be nice is to remove a wall between the kitchen and the breakfast room, but its not the end of the world if we couldn't.
It has a cart shed/barn/car port thats open ended. Would that be something that we could fit doors to maybe? Again, its not the end of the world if we couldn't do that
It has a cart shed/barn/car port thats open ended. Would that be something that we could fit doors to maybe? Again, its not the end of the world if we couldn't do that
I am in Scotland so our equivalent of grade 2 is grade B. We have lived in a grade B listed house for 12 years. We’ve had no bother from the council regarding changes we’ve made to external features (and have asked for permission for), and have also had planning permission approved for a garage/granny flat with no issues. However other people we know in other local authority issues have. So I suspect it’s a very localised thing. There are a couple of things we’ve done without asking (e.g., changing a 70s aluminium window back to the original design sash & case design) but these are completely defensible as the last owner never asked to modernise.
Horses for courses.
Horses for courses.
w1bbles said:
However other people we know in other local authority issues have. So I suspect it’s a very localised thing.
One of the problems (and it is a problem - quite a big one) is that Conservation is the one area of Planning where the individual personalities and views of Officers have an enormous influence.The rest of the Planning system has been largely reduced to a tick-box exercise comparing applications to local and national policy, which can be a good or a bad thing, but at least it's a lot more consistent than it used to be.
With historic buildings, it's still very much down to the personal opinion (and personality) of the Conservation Officier.
Any ball ache is more than compensated for by living in a beautiful and unique property.
Do however expect any work to cost and take time. General running costs, especially if the place is large, can really stack up. For us heating is the biggie...Check out insurance costs as well as they can also be hefty due to rebuild costs.
Do however expect any work to cost and take time. General running costs, especially if the place is large, can really stack up. For us heating is the biggie...Check out insurance costs as well as they can also be hefty due to rebuild costs.
LooneyTunes said:
Any ball ache is more than compensated for by living in a beautiful and unique property.
This is the key thing for us. We really don't like modern houses, modern houses are "better" in quite a few ways, much like new cars are "better" than older cars. They're just dull and boring in many cases!LooneyTunes said:
Do however expect any work to cost and take time. General running costs, especially if the place is large, can really stack up. For us heating is the biggie...Check out insurance costs as well as they can also be hefty due to rebuild costs.
Expecting higher heating bills, although they've got a couple of wood burners which I like the idea of which will help keep the house warm along with the central heating. I've been told insurance is more money by a few people, it's not a huge amount more than we're paying now which is nice to know.Agree with both the above points, based on my own experiences of a grade 2 listing.
Our insurance is higher than we had with previous properties (albeit a part thatched roof as well as some timber construction makes this no surprise) and the rebuild costs also play into this.
Heating bills we don't find too bad, old part of the house is not thermally efficient but our extention is so some balance is struck. Log burner great for a top up as well as looking nice too.
Our insurance is higher than we had with previous properties (albeit a part thatched roof as well as some timber construction makes this no surprise) and the rebuild costs also play into this.
Heating bills we don't find too bad, old part of the house is not thermally efficient but our extention is so some balance is struck. Log burner great for a top up as well as looking nice too.
Fast Bug said:
Its not a house that we want or needs knocking about to be honest. The only thing that would be nice is to remove a wall between the kitchen and the breakfast room, but its not the end of the world if we couldn't.
It has a cart shed/barn/car port thats open ended. Would that be something that we could fit doors to maybe? Again, its not the end of the world if we couldn't do that
The big problem as far as I am concerned is that it is almost entirely down to the opinion of an individual. They can refuse permission to do things without seeming to have any reason for the refusal. It has a cart shed/barn/car port thats open ended. Would that be something that we could fit doors to maybe? Again, its not the end of the world if we couldn't do that
I had a G2 Flat and wanted to take out a divider that made the bed room tiny, it was obviously not part of the original building, but the conservation officer would not allow it.
nikaiyo2 said:
The big problem as far as I am concerned is that it is almost entirely down to the opinion of an individual. They can refuse permission to do things without seeming to have any reason for the refusal.
I had a G2 Flat and wanted to take out a divider that made the bed room tiny, it was obviously not part of the original building, but the conservation officer would not allow it.
It depends when the wall was installed - if it is old enough to be deemed to be part of the heritage of the building then you can't change it. Same with windows that were bricked up because of the Window tax - even though the house would look better now with the window restored back to originality, it's generally not allowed for a listed building.I had a G2 Flat and wanted to take out a divider that made the bed room tiny, it was obviously not part of the original building, but the conservation officer would not allow it.
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