Discussion
If you are TVR club member then there is a full article in the May edition of Sprint about changing the servo/mastercylinder. I remain very dubious about using second hand parts for these. If you do go second hand make ABSOLUTELY certain you get the right one, thre are several Ford fitted servos/master cylinders which look the same but differ in bore, stroke or fitting to the pedal.
greymrj said:
If you are TVR club member then there is a full article in the May edition of Sprint about changing the servo/mastercylinder. I remain very dubious about using second hand parts for these. If you do go second hand make ABSOLUTELY certain you get the right one, thre are several Ford fitted servos/master cylinders which look the same but differ in bore, stroke or fitting to the pedal.
As the author of the article (based on research by others including Greymrj and Gerald-TVR), I second all of that. As the article itself says, you can try to bodge bits to fit, but not brakes or steering. - when all else fails, you need those to be working properly. You were right in the Sprint article regarding supplies of the servo PSA328. I hope Norman is going to read this: after all our research TRW have indeed discontinued this item. There are a few still about but at elevated prices. My original contacts, the Car Component Company of Blackburn, are going to dig out all the latest computerised cross referencing discs so we can work through them and see if we can find yet another option fitted to a more modern car. We are also going to get back to TRW, who were very helpful last time, to see if there is any prospect at all of a further batch being made, partly at least for TVR's.
greymrj said:
You were right in the Sprint article regarding supplies of the servo PSA328. I hope Norman is going to read this: after all our research TRW have indeed discontinued this item. There are a few still about but at elevated prices. My original contacts, the Car Component Company of Blackburn, are going to dig out all the latest computerised cross referencing discs so we can work through them and see if we can find yet another option fitted to a more modern car. We are also going to get back to TRW, who were very helpful last time, to see if there is any prospect at all of a further batch being made, partly at least for TVR's.
Richard, I think that's great and I hope you find something.I know I was right: I went to Ford and they said "discontinued", so I launched on a search to find one before the news got out and the price went up. Neil at TVR Car Parts also told me that same day that they couldn't get them either "Ford have discontinued them, you know" although I think he had managed to locate a limited supply (only a handful) from Europe. The very next day Norman posted on here that they were discontinued, and I think I must have got one of the very last "brand-new in-stock" items in the land!
I don't know if Neil managed to get the ones he had on order before TVR Car Parts went, but Dulfords have their stock so might be worth a call.
I think that later TVRs (the T-Cars) are fitted with some variant or other of Ford Ka, and having seen one of those, it looks like it would be an easy swap (subject to checking bore diameters etc).
As I say in the article, this affects all TVRs from the S through to the Chimaera, Griffith and Cerbera, so we need to find something, and our S-Series, being the oldest and with the least-protected servos, are going to need them first!
Finding the bits is one thing. Another problem, though, is that at the moment, fitting a PSA238 servo or equivalent counts as a like-for-like replacement, you're fitting something that was OEM on these cars. Even if you do find an alternative, do you have to declare that to your insurer as a "modification" because it's non-OEM parts, and on such a safety-critical item as brakes, are they going to take the opportunity to load your premium (or worse, argue any claim after they have taken your money)?
Hi Gary thanks for the offer, appreciated. I will get back to you when I know what I am up against.
Andrew has raised the question of insurance issues if the servo isnt a like for like replacement. That was one of the issues I raised in the original research and it worried me until it was clear TVR had type approval for such a system. I must admit I was pleased to see Andrew's article in Sprint as it gave more 'official' credability to the advice. If it does come to a further substitution it would be wise to seek some form of official acceptance, perhaps via the DVLA single vehicle testing sytem?
We will see what TRW say first before getting into murkier waters!
Andrew has raised the question of insurance issues if the servo isnt a like for like replacement. That was one of the issues I raised in the original research and it worried me until it was clear TVR had type approval for such a system. I must admit I was pleased to see Andrew's article in Sprint as it gave more 'official' credability to the advice. If it does come to a further substitution it would be wise to seek some form of official acceptance, perhaps via the DVLA single vehicle testing sytem?
We will see what TRW say first before getting into murkier waters!
I think you guys are over-egging the pudding when you raise possible insurance problems over details of brake servos. I seriously doubt that TVR bothered to inform the “authorities” when they changed from the Saab to the Fiesta type servo. If you end up using a T-car (Ford Ka) type servo, just fit it and forget about it.
Having spoken at length to TVR specialists involved in repairs for insurers, you realise that insurance assesors are pretty clueless about what constitutes “standard” with TVRs, since there was so much variation from the factory. As the cars get older, “genuine” TVR spares are no longer available and the use of alternatives becomes the norm. I have also heard the same said about my Corvette. Even though it is a current model from GM, insurance assessors have virtually zero knowledge of the technical details of that car, let alone an obsolete TVR.
What about those of us fitting larger discs/calipers - are we talking to the DVLA and seeking single vehicle approval for that? Let sleeping dogs lie.
As long as the car has a dual circuit brake servo which works and passes the MOT test, I don’t think the insurers will give a stuff. All they care about is how much will the repair cost.
Having spoken at length to TVR specialists involved in repairs for insurers, you realise that insurance assesors are pretty clueless about what constitutes “standard” with TVRs, since there was so much variation from the factory. As the cars get older, “genuine” TVR spares are no longer available and the use of alternatives becomes the norm. I have also heard the same said about my Corvette. Even though it is a current model from GM, insurance assessors have virtually zero knowledge of the technical details of that car, let alone an obsolete TVR.
What about those of us fitting larger discs/calipers - are we talking to the DVLA and seeking single vehicle approval for that? Let sleeping dogs lie.
As long as the car has a dual circuit brake servo which works and passes the MOT test, I don’t think the insurers will give a stuff. All they care about is how much will the repair cost.
Edited by jwoffshore on Tuesday 5th June 01:19
jwoffshore said:
I think you guys are over-egging the pudding when you raise possible insurance problems over details of brake servos. I seriously doubt that TVR bothered to inform the “authorities” when they changed from the Saab to the Fiesta type servo. If you end up using a T-car (Ford Ka) type servo, just fit it and forget about it.
You're free to tell your insurer as much or as little as you want.My advice is to tell them EVERYTHING that could possibly be relevant to the risk they're covering.
If you tell them, and they think it doesn't matter, you've lost nothing. If you tell them and they think it matters, the premium might change a bit but you're insured, at least. If you fail to tell them about something that could reasonably affect your risk, you aren't saving money. You're actually paying them NOT to insure you.
As you like, but personally I have no intention of telling my insurers when I maintain my car by replacing rusty or worn out old parts with broadly equivalent and better quality alternative new ones. Wholesale modifications such as 12" discs or an extra 100bhp is a different matter of course.
Got to agree with Peter on this, maybe it is old age and experience? I have never had an insurance problem but I know others who have. It doesn't matter UNTIL you have an accident, then the assessors will look at the evidence. Any reason found not to pay out or to pay less then the insurers will follow it up. Remember it may well be the other persons insurer trying to prove you were at fault. If you car is 'modified' and you have not declared it then it is an easy get out for the insurer; have a good look at your policy. I am not talking about just replacing parts or an exact alternative but anything which could be counted as a modification,especially concerning the safety or performance of the vehicle. Changing a substantial part of the brake system requiring some engineering to the car is a modification to me. Tell them and, in my experience, it costs little or nothing. Don't tell them and it could cost you the value of your car (and in a third party claim situation it could be far worse). No contest?
IF (and I admit it's an if) you have a claim, will the insurance company spot any of the following common mods?
1. Non-standard tyre profiles which might affect the handling / balance of the car.
2. Bigger front disks / calipers which might affect the brake balance?
3. Substitution of rear drums by disks (which might affect ditto)
4. Substition of a "performance" air filter.
5. "Sports" exhaust (ie just about anything you can buy since OEM isn't available).
6. "Sports" coils / dampers (ie ditto)
7. Substitution of the original Saab servo by a later Fiesta (but still OEM) system?
8. Substitution of either of the OEM brake systems by a non-OEM alternative?
All of those mods, in our view, make the car better and safer (although personally I'm not too sure about the bigger brakes unless you are doing track days - I suspect they are more of a fashion accessory in many cases). But any of those, and particulary the first 3 and the last one, could be seen as "undeclared mods" that could affect the car's performance.
And that could give the insurance company an "out" if times are hard.
Do you feel lucky? Well, do ya?
1. Non-standard tyre profiles which might affect the handling / balance of the car.
2. Bigger front disks / calipers which might affect the brake balance?
3. Substitution of rear drums by disks (which might affect ditto)
4. Substition of a "performance" air filter.
5. "Sports" exhaust (ie just about anything you can buy since OEM isn't available).
6. "Sports" coils / dampers (ie ditto)
7. Substitution of the original Saab servo by a later Fiesta (but still OEM) system?
8. Substitution of either of the OEM brake systems by a non-OEM alternative?
All of those mods, in our view, make the car better and safer (although personally I'm not too sure about the bigger brakes unless you are doing track days - I suspect they are more of a fashion accessory in many cases). But any of those, and particulary the first 3 and the last one, could be seen as "undeclared mods" that could affect the car's performance.
And that could give the insurance company an "out" if times are hard.
Do you feel lucky? Well, do ya?
That all presupposes that the current owner did the modification, I suppoose if i were really bothered about originality I'd have checked all of those items on the TVR I just bought, but TBH I didn't.
It has a "new" servo fitted, new calipers, new discs/drums (and pads/shoes), new shocks & springs, new manifolds (SS tubular) new (V8 style) SS exhaust etc, etc, but whether or not to declare them as modifications wasn't something I was particularly concerned about.
Not being amechanic how am I supposed to know if the servo is an OEM fitment or not? (OK so I do know but how would an insurance assessor?)
I probably should (and may well do) declare the exhaust but that's about it, the other parts are really "consumables" and as such should be replacebale with a "like for like" part. That doesn't mean the exact same part, just one that provides the same function and has a similar level of durability/safety.
Swapping one Ford part for another Ford part ought to be fine, the exhaust might make a difference is it is "performance enhancing" but unless it is sold as such and there is rolling road evidence to support that it shouldn't be an issue.
Having been a biker for the past 30 years I rarely have an unmodified vehicle int he household, even my wife's Alfa Spider has a few tasteful mods (brakes/exhaust/induction) and althought he exhaust mods are declared (as they're obvious and highly visible) i defy any claims adjustor to spot the others.
In theory, witht he new laws you're limited to a small number of modifications (3?) and again, in theory adding a sticker counts as one. Add 3 stickers to the car (or remove a trim badge and add 2) and you have a modified vehicle and need specialist insurance.
I'm confident that "common sense" would prevail if there were an issue....But then again i am an optimist.
It has a "new" servo fitted, new calipers, new discs/drums (and pads/shoes), new shocks & springs, new manifolds (SS tubular) new (V8 style) SS exhaust etc, etc, but whether or not to declare them as modifications wasn't something I was particularly concerned about.
Not being amechanic how am I supposed to know if the servo is an OEM fitment or not? (OK so I do know but how would an insurance assessor?)
I probably should (and may well do) declare the exhaust but that's about it, the other parts are really "consumables" and as such should be replacebale with a "like for like" part. That doesn't mean the exact same part, just one that provides the same function and has a similar level of durability/safety.
Swapping one Ford part for another Ford part ought to be fine, the exhaust might make a difference is it is "performance enhancing" but unless it is sold as such and there is rolling road evidence to support that it shouldn't be an issue.
Having been a biker for the past 30 years I rarely have an unmodified vehicle int he household, even my wife's Alfa Spider has a few tasteful mods (brakes/exhaust/induction) and althought he exhaust mods are declared (as they're obvious and highly visible) i defy any claims adjustor to spot the others.
In theory, witht he new laws you're limited to a small number of modifications (3?) and again, in theory adding a sticker counts as one. Add 3 stickers to the car (or remove a trim badge and add 2) and you have a modified vehicle and need specialist insurance.
I'm confident that "common sense" would prevail if there were an issue....But then again i am an optimist.
Message for Andrew and Norman primarily.
Just to bring you up to date re an alternative to PSA328.
Although that servo has been discontinued I have found out one interesting thing. PSA328 was fitted in RIGHT hand drive cars, these are only a small proportion of the total European market. The equivalent LEFT hand drive Fiesta is more numerous and has a better survival rate so TRW expect the servo to be in production for some time yet. The LEFT hand drive car has almost exactly the same underbonnet layout, the servo is still on the right, and, as far as I have been able to ascertain so far the servo is identical EXCEPT that the operating rod differs. We are going to contact TRW to confirm that the servo is identical (I may be able to 'borrow' one to check certain key points) and to see what is involved in changing the operating rod.
I am afraid however that the servo is still relatively expensive, mind you it is still cheaper compared to the cost of th SAAB servo when it was last available 4 years ago.
Just to bring you up to date re an alternative to PSA328.
Although that servo has been discontinued I have found out one interesting thing. PSA328 was fitted in RIGHT hand drive cars, these are only a small proportion of the total European market. The equivalent LEFT hand drive Fiesta is more numerous and has a better survival rate so TRW expect the servo to be in production for some time yet. The LEFT hand drive car has almost exactly the same underbonnet layout, the servo is still on the right, and, as far as I have been able to ascertain so far the servo is identical EXCEPT that the operating rod differs. We are going to contact TRW to confirm that the servo is identical (I may be able to 'borrow' one to check certain key points) and to see what is involved in changing the operating rod.
I am afraid however that the servo is still relatively expensive, mind you it is still cheaper compared to the cost of th SAAB servo when it was last available 4 years ago.
greymrj said:
Message for Andrew and Norman primarily.
Just to bring you up to date re an alternative to PSA328.
Although that servo has been discontinued I have found out one interesting thing. .
As stated above by Hansdaal and I can confirm as well.Just to bring you up to date re an alternative to PSA328.
Although that servo has been discontinued I have found out one interesting thing. .
I could easily buy-sell-on some PSA328 (new boxed) if you like.
Han
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