2.8 Cologne timing gear

[Kitchski]

Lightening the flywheel isn't an attempt at making the engine spin faster, just respond slightly quicker to throttle inputs. Mass-produced everyday cars are fitted with flywheels that edge on the heavier side to help maintain rolling momentum and fuel economy. I don't need that, I need fun

It'll only be a very slight change, but I've done it on previous cars with positive results. It's not expensive to do either, and the flywheel is already going away to be re-faced as the old clutch was dragging all the time.

I'm under no illusions tuning the 2.8 is pretty much futile, but I feel I could sharpen it up slightly with not much effort. I doubt I'll gain any power, even with the fast road cam, because as you say, the restriction is in the heads/breathing setup.

[Ali B]

Kitchski, did your fibre gear come off easily?

The Haynes book of optimism and lies (both Capri II, 2.8 and Sierra V6) shows a bloke pulling it with his fingers.
"22 Unscrew the bolt securing the camshaft gear to the camshaft and pull off the gear (photos)."

Mine won't budge. I have remembered to take off the retaining nut, but am I missing something?
Levers seem likely to damage the gear.
If I heat it up with a blowtorch will I ignite the fibre teeth?

Al

[phillpot]

The problem with trying to heat things like that up (imho) with a "hobby" blow lamp is the heat transfers into the shaft nearly as quick as you heat the gear up so they both expand together.
A nice big nozzle in an oxy-acetylene set might whack some heat in fast and do the job but it will now be hot so you'll still need some levers.

Ali B said:

Levers seem likely to damage the gear.

Not wishing to state the obvious but you need some form of "pry bars" that will hook round the back and push on the metal hub without touching the gear.

Maybe something like these?




or a pair of these?

Edited by phillpot on Friday 22 August 16:39

[Kitchski]

Not wanting to teach how to suck eggs, but are you allowing the cam to rotate as you remove it? They're bevelled so they won't pull straight off.

[Ali B]

Kitchski said:

Not wanting to teach how to suck eggs, but are you allowing the cam to rotate as you remove it? They're bevelled so they won't pull straight off.

I think so. Certainly not deliberately preventing it, but I'll take it into account next attempt.

phillpot said:

Maybe something like these?

Edited by phillpot on Friday 22 August 16:39

These look like the ones for the job! Better than the angled part of my combination spanners.

[Kitchski]

If the rockers are still in, then the cam will be under load, so is harder to turn. It should pull off easily.

[Ali B]

Rockers, lifters and pushrods are all out.

Gear and cam freely moving out and back in a couple of mm together (end float?).

Would it be a terrible idea to wedge the gear in the 'out' position and using a big socket as a drift give it a clout with a number 2 tw@tting hammer?
Don't want to damage the cam, it may be needed for a regrind.

[Kitchski]

I wouldn't clout it. Can't you pop a 3 legged pulled on there? Don't wind it up tight obviously is it'll be gripping the nylon outer bit, but it may just need pulling off perfectly squarely.

[Ali B]

Pry bars did the job, gently and with no drama or damage to the fibre gear. Good shout, phillpot!
Kitchski, thanks for the advice and other contributions, which saved me from dropping the gear myself.

[John042]

Hi, I've read with interest the pros and cons of timing gears of the 2.8i Cologne.I'm in the position of rebuilding a Cologne engine, standard but with a new a fast road cam. Also I'm fortunate in having the original fibre timing gear plus a new steel gear. So what would you fit?? I've heard that the metal gear is noisy but since I've never heard the engine run can't compare or evaluate? So choices please? Thankyou John C.

[Kitchski]

Hi John,

I ended up going with an alloy gear set. I couldn't be sure about the condition of the original one (as I dropped it!) and I was getting mixed signals from Ford specialists. Eventually I wound up at a Cologne engine specialist, whose response when I suggested the Cologne 2.3/2.8 doesn't suffer the issue was "That's bks, who told you that?!" Of course, he could have been looking to make a sale, but he came across like an old-school specialist who knew his stuff. Either way, I bought it.
I asked him about the whining and he said it's the steel gears which do that (makes perfect sense) and that the alloy ones are much quieter. I have a friend who used to run a 2.8 Capri with the alloy gear, and admittedly I don't remember it being whiney.

The set I got came in cheaper than Burtons, and came with a drive gear as well as the camshaft gear, as they need to be changed in pairs. Picture here:

https://www.facebook.com/SouthwaysAutomotive/photo...

To be honest, for the amount of faff there is involved to change something so simple, I think it was a no-brainer. Removes all doubt as far as I'm concerned!

[John042]

Thanks Kitchski, so I guess I'll fit the steel one and live with "Whinning" probably drown out the passengers?Cheers John C

[greymrj]

The advice I got from both Burton Power and a very well respected local engine builder was that the fibre gears on the Essex V6 engine do fail, but not those on the Cologne V6. They would only consider the metal gear appropriate for a race engine. We did ask around via this forum if anybody knew of a Cologne engine cam gear failure. As yet nobody has reported such a failure, but if anybody knows different then please do add that advice. We are talking her of KNOWN failures, not hearing someone who thought they had heard someone else had had a failure.

Conversely we did have someone who took a steel gear off (and offered it) because of the noise!

Burton will advise you that the primary structural weakness of the Cologne engine, if overrevved, is the big end bolts stretching and they are one of several suppliers of stronger big end bolts.

[John042]

Thanks "greymri" that noisy??The steel one is nice and shiny though. It will be interesting on any replies to actual fibre timing gear failures on Cologne engines? Yes, new bigend bolts from "Burton" will be fitted on rebuild. Not sure about the type of head bolts as I've not found them yet in amongst the debris. Is it correct, if hex' headed they can be reused, if torx headed, replace?? Thanks for any replies. John C.

[Kitchski]

greymrj said:

The advice I got from both Burton Power and a very well respected local engine builder was that the fibre gears on the Essex V6 engine do fail, but not those on the Cologne V6. They would only consider the metal gear appropriate for a race engine. We did ask around via this forum if anybody knew of a Cologne engine cam gear failure. As yet nobody has reported such a failure, but if anybody knows different then please do add that advice. We are talking her of KNOWN failures, not hearing someone who thought they had heard someone else had had a failure.

Conversely we did have someone who took a steel gear off (and offered it) because of the noise!

Burton will advise you that the primary structural weakness of the Cologne engine, if overrevved, is the big end bolts stretching and they are one of several suppliers of stronger big end bolts.

This is what I'd heard, until I spoke with the place I got the alloy pulley from: http://www.cologneengines.com/ (they need a new web designer!)

He went into detail about the issues with the Cologne gear being different to those of the Essex, and apparently they're not made of the same material (the fibre section). I don't have time to ring back and get into another long convo on it, but maybe someone else does?

Either way, he said he has had failed Cologne pulleys in the past. I haven't seen them of course, it's just his word. He seemed straight enough (although they charged me a small fortune for head bolts!)

The deal with the head bolts, is that hex are reusable, and Torx are not. Colognes started production with the standard bolts, but apparently part of the first service was to retighten the head bolts on all models. This involves removing the rocker gear, so most Ford dealers didn't bother and consequently there were quite a few cases of blown head gaskets. Because of this, Ford switched to stretch bolts which didn't need re-torquing.
I went for normal bolts from the guys above is it'll do so few miles and be over-maintained, there's really no issue. Only thing I'd mention is the bolts they send you are standard M10 hex HT bolts (I forget the length). You can get them MUCH cheaper elsewhere! Torx stretch bolts are crazy money from Burtons.

Edited by Kitchski on Tuesday 18th November 09:46

[John042]

Thanks Kitchski.As yet I've not unearthed the head bolts that came with the engine. So,the way I understand is; if Hex headed bolts, use again, if Torx, replace? Torx bolts from Burton are £6.90! So lets hoping I've got hex ones. As to fitting the steel timing wheel, how noisy is it in relation to a fibre one? Perhaps someone on this forum could comment having actual experience of fitting both please?

[John042]

Thanks Kitchski.As yet I've not unearthed the head bolts that came with the engine. So,the way I understand is; if Hex headed bolts, use again, if Torx, replace? Torx bolts from Burton are £6.90! So lets hoping I've got hex ones. As to fitting the steel timing wheel, how noisy is it in relation to a fibre one? Perhaps someone on this forum could comment having actual experience of fitting both please?

[greymrj]

In my experience it would be unusual to find a Cologne with Torx head bolts but I stand to be corrected in respect perhaps of later engines.

My understanding of the change in cam gears, supported by forums where the earlier Essex engines are involved is that failures in gears on Essex engines led to improvements in design and material for the Cologne engine and that the Cologne as fitted to later Capris, and Granadas and Sierras, proved pretty reliable. I simply do not believe that the fibre gear on the Cologne was WORSE than that of the Essex. However a pretty detailed article about Capri engines does suggest the timimg gear problems did continue into the 2.8 Cologne (not the 2.9 of course as that has completely different cam drive arrangements). See:
http://www.fordcaprilaser.co.uk/page124.html

I have however yet to hear any direct evidence of a 2.8 S stripping its cam gears. Can anybody shed any light on this issue: Fact or Myth?

One point I forgot to mention on earlier postings. If the engine has been allowed to become very dirty, if for example the oil is filthy or the engine has accumulated a good deal of rust inside, then another problem with the fibre gear arises. Dirt can get pressed into the surface of the fibre gear, it can get so bad that the surface of the fibre gear starts to deteriorate. What however is sometimes overlooked is that the dirt in the face of the fibre gear accelerates the wear on the steel crankshaft pinion. For that reason, if the fibre gear looks dodgy then BOTH have to be replaced or the worn steel crankshaft pinion will soon damage the new cam gear, whatever material it is made of.

[John042]

Thankyou "greymri" for the detailed reply. As I stated in an earlier post, I've yet to find the head bolts. However since it's a 1984 car I'm assumimg it will have Torx bolts? Good point reference the contamination of the timing/crank gears etc. Again since I've got a new steel timing gear I guess it would be wise to fit it. However before any rebuilding starts my other collections have to be rationalised (Motorcycles sold) Too many toys in the cuboard!! Thanks again for the replies. John C

[Barkychoc]

On the subject of the fibre wheel have you actually tried a ford dealer?
I know it's a wild long shot but you never know what they still have in the network.