TVR S1 won't run on after firing up
Discussion
Looks like were going in circles on this one.. assuming engine is sound (it starts so likley is ok) its got to be either spark or fuel ?
So given nothig should change spark side between starting and running i would suspect fuel. And pink relay but i think you said this was ok..?
Try to determine if fuel pump keeps running after startup? I suspect but could be wrong that its not hence the engine stopping. To test futher you could wire the fuel pump to live and see if she runs?
Juat my thoughts anyways, good luck
Damian S3 Duratec
So given nothig should change spark side between starting and running i would suspect fuel. And pink relay but i think you said this was ok..?
Try to determine if fuel pump keeps running after startup? I suspect but could be wrong that its not hence the engine stopping. To test futher you could wire the fuel pump to live and see if she runs?
Juat my thoughts anyways, good luck
Damian S3 Duratec
Well, having sat back for a few days to gain my composure....
IGNITION SWITCH: I've checked the ignition switch wiring, standard Ford/TVR, as the wiring diagram
FUEL PUMP: To test the fuel pump operation, as suggested, I temporarily replaced the fuel relay with a headlamp relay (as advised in the Granada Haynes Manual). That kept the fuel pump running continuously when the ignition was on....... There is good pressure at the distribution pot both in and return.
Still no continuation after the start up firing.
FUEL: Am I correct in my understanding that starting procedure fuel works off (or is assisted by) an electrically operated pulsing pump adding fuel into the air inlet manifold, so could it be that there may not be any/enough fuel getting in via the injectors, which should be positively loaded at a volume that is controlled by the air flap and released at timings that are valve controlled. How can I test this function?. Any advice??
SPARK: I took out a spark plug and on earthing it, it did sparks during start procedure but when the key 'start' position is released back to 'ignition', and the engine was not driven by the starter motor and it just turns a couple of "chuffs" as it ceases to turn, I witnessed no spark at the spark plug.
MODULE: I find that finned box a bit of a mystery. Does it provide the same function during 'starting' as during 'running'. If there are separate functions, perhaps I should try and source another (I see there are 'new' replacement units advertised on the internet)..Thoughts?
Cheers guys
IGNITION SWITCH: I've checked the ignition switch wiring, standard Ford/TVR, as the wiring diagram
FUEL PUMP: To test the fuel pump operation, as suggested, I temporarily replaced the fuel relay with a headlamp relay (as advised in the Granada Haynes Manual). That kept the fuel pump running continuously when the ignition was on....... There is good pressure at the distribution pot both in and return.
Still no continuation after the start up firing.
FUEL: Am I correct in my understanding that starting procedure fuel works off (or is assisted by) an electrically operated pulsing pump adding fuel into the air inlet manifold, so could it be that there may not be any/enough fuel getting in via the injectors, which should be positively loaded at a volume that is controlled by the air flap and released at timings that are valve controlled. How can I test this function?. Any advice??
SPARK: I took out a spark plug and on earthing it, it did sparks during start procedure but when the key 'start' position is released back to 'ignition', and the engine was not driven by the starter motor and it just turns a couple of "chuffs" as it ceases to turn, I witnessed no spark at the spark plug.
MODULE: I find that finned box a bit of a mystery. Does it provide the same function during 'starting' as during 'running'. If there are separate functions, perhaps I should try and source another (I see there are 'new' replacement units advertised on the internet)..Thoughts?
Cheers guys
TACHO: Thanks for the suggestion. The body has been off and in the shed for well over a year, so there could be movement disruption. The Rev counter does activate during the starting procedure. I see from the wiring diagram that it is part of the circuit, What should I check for ? How can I check it?
TACHO: Thanks for the suggestion. The body has been off and in the shed for well over a year, so there could be movement disruption. The Rev counter does activate during the starting procedure. I see from the wiring diagram that it is part of the circuit, What should I check for ? How can I check it?
Temporarily put a wire between the battery +ve and the coil. That way you bypass the ignition switch and tachometer. If it starts then you know it is part of the circuit you have bypassed.
I ran my S1 for months like this when I first bought it, but eventually worked out there was an issue with the fuse base.
I ran my S1 for months like this when I first bought it, but eventually worked out there was an issue with the fuse base.
Thanks for that.
That's like the old fashion hot wiring. (I'm that old!!)
I have tried this, but there is no problem in trying it again. Will do...
I was under the impression the ignition system was more complicated than that but from your experience, you have proved me wrong....cheers
That's like the old fashion hot wiring. (I'm that old!!)
I have tried this, but there is no problem in trying it again. Will do...
I was under the impression the ignition system was more complicated than that but from your experience, you have proved me wrong....cheers
Before shooting off on too many tangents, have you physically removed and checked each fuse with a continuity tester/ ohm meter?
Sometimes a fuse looks intact visually, but is actually open circuit and will not pass a current.
And also check each fuse holder for signs of corrosion, or burning, or loose blade contacts.
Same with the relay bases. The relay base of the pink relay on the S1 is prone to melting, distortion and charring.
Also make sure that you are checking the correct fuses, as the fuse diagrams in the Steve Heath book is VERY misleading.
Please carry out these basic checks and report back what you find.
Good luck,
Glen
PS Just a thought Trefor, do you have a 12v supply at the cigarette lighter socket when the ignition is switched on?
Sometimes a fuse looks intact visually, but is actually open circuit and will not pass a current.
And also check each fuse holder for signs of corrosion, or burning, or loose blade contacts.
Same with the relay bases. The relay base of the pink relay on the S1 is prone to melting, distortion and charring.
Also make sure that you are checking the correct fuses, as the fuse diagrams in the Steve Heath book is VERY misleading.
Please carry out these basic checks and report back what you find.
Good luck,
Glen
PS Just a thought Trefor, do you have a 12v supply at the cigarette lighter socket when the ignition is switched on?
Edited by glenrobbo on Wednesday 20th June 20:45
Back on it again today
FUEL: Took air box off the top of the engine to get to the injector connections and, replacing the relay as before to keep fuel pumping, I do get fuel to the injectors but, of course, only when I lift the air flap manually, to activate the fuel distributor..... so it proves fuel can get there but it doesn't prove that it does (i.e. does the flap work?)
I now have to wait till possibly Monday for a new air box gasket (I had to buy a whole head gasket set!!) to put it all together and borrow another pair of hands to check air flap activation etc.
FUSE BLOCK: Checked all 16 fuses in the block and replaced most of them (Halfords Bargain Fuse Selection Box). and I've tried to check the fuse block, (using the meter and a long earth to the battery), to see if I have 12v where there should be 12v, both going in or coming out. Seems OK
LIGHTER SOCKET: Yes, I do have power at the lighter socket on ignition. Same Volts as battery.
CONTINUATION: Over the weekend/next week, I'm going to put the air box & fuel back together then go through the ignition electric checks one more time, this time with the help of the spare pair of hands (beer bribe coming up) and I'll keep you posted
FUEL: Took air box off the top of the engine to get to the injector connections and, replacing the relay as before to keep fuel pumping, I do get fuel to the injectors but, of course, only when I lift the air flap manually, to activate the fuel distributor..... so it proves fuel can get there but it doesn't prove that it does (i.e. does the flap work?)
I now have to wait till possibly Monday for a new air box gasket (I had to buy a whole head gasket set!!) to put it all together and borrow another pair of hands to check air flap activation etc.
FUSE BLOCK: Checked all 16 fuses in the block and replaced most of them (Halfords Bargain Fuse Selection Box). and I've tried to check the fuse block, (using the meter and a long earth to the battery), to see if I have 12v where there should be 12v, both going in or coming out. Seems OK
LIGHTER SOCKET: Yes, I do have power at the lighter socket on ignition. Same Volts as battery.
CONTINUATION: Over the weekend/next week, I'm going to put the air box & fuel back together then go through the ignition electric checks one more time, this time with the help of the spare pair of hands (beer bribe coming up) and I'll keep you posted
Help came today. But both are at a loss.
Fuel we have. Took an injector out.
It is definitely electrical that fails on 'run' circuit. No spark on run circuit. Changed the coil.
I've ordered a new replacement Module
Simple question. :- Looking at the 'Bible' circuit diagram, on the start procedure, I see electrical power to the amp module coming off the the starter motor supply, BUT what fuse/route provides the power to the module when in 'run' mode.
The 25 amp supplies the fuel pump, via the 'PINK' module, but is that all it does.
I love my S But.............
Fuel we have. Took an injector out.
It is definitely electrical that fails on 'run' circuit. No spark on run circuit. Changed the coil.
I've ordered a new replacement Module
Simple question. :- Looking at the 'Bible' circuit diagram, on the start procedure, I see electrical power to the amp module coming off the the starter motor supply, BUT what fuse/route provides the power to the module when in 'run' mode.
The 25 amp supplies the fuel pump, via the 'PINK' module, but is that all it does.
I love my S But.............
Trefhead said:
Thanks for that. That's like the old fashion hot wiring. (I'm that old!!)
I have tried this, but there is no problem in trying it again. Will do...
Did it work? If not try putting a separate earth to the coil body. Yes, yes I know ...coils don't need and earth this but mine did. So give it a go and see what happens.I have tried this, but there is no problem in trying it again. Will do...
Trefhead said:
I'il get out there and look Thanks both Yes there 12.6 volts at the battery 11.3 volts at the coil
If the ballast resistor is working then shouldn't the voltage at the coil with the ignition switch in "run" be around 9V ?Hi. Well at least having another head with me relieved me from thinking I was loosing the plot 
)
Direct live to the coil...... No it didnt work And we stripped the coil off my v8 landrover and wired that up too. running on resistor & non resistor supply ....... same thing, she fires up with gusto on the start circuit then no spark at all when we go to run circuit
Rev counter OK, The ignition light cigarette lighter, heater fan etc all work on run position.
Have taken our the resistor wire from the circuit, no difference
So...... we have come to an interim conclusion that it may me the "white" cable to the module but inside the module ........ lets see when the replacement comes
Cheers for your continued interest
)Direct live to the coil...... No it didnt work And we stripped the coil off my v8 landrover and wired that up too. running on resistor & non resistor supply ....... same thing, she fires up with gusto on the start circuit then no spark at all when we go to run circuit
Rev counter OK, The ignition light cigarette lighter, heater fan etc all work on run position.
Have taken our the resistor wire from the circuit, no difference
So...... we have come to an interim conclusion that it may me the "white" cable to the module but inside the module ........ lets see when the replacement comes
Cheers for your continued interest
I'd have to check the drawings again but the only difference between running and starting is the switch on the stater motor shorting out the ballast resistor ? Sorry if I'm going over old ground but when you say it fires on start, you do mean that you have an ignition rather than it just turns over ?
I don't think you said what the coil +ve voltage was when you stop cranking and return the key to the 'run' position. Are you still seeing a solid 9V ish there?
If so, that would suggest the problem is on the negative side. This is earthed via the ignition module to produce the spark, and if the ignition module wasn't working that would explain the lack of spark. What connections do you have to the ignition module?.
If so, that would suggest the problem is on the negative side. This is earthed via the ignition module to produce the spark, and if the ignition module wasn't working that would explain the lack of spark. What connections do you have to the ignition module?.
Looking at the wiring diagram there are a couple of other things connected to the supply to the starter solenoid that will only be on when the key is in the start position. The diagram shows a connection to the ignition module as well as to the cold start injector and the green hot start module. The latter two control fuel so if it is spark that is going away as soon as you release the key from the starter position I would be looking at the ignition module as the problem.
Dave
Dave
By ignition module you mean the 'DuraSpark' amplifier, then yep, I concur with fitting a new one, for longevity/reliability reasons if nothing else, & even if its found not to be your problem. After all it has sat cooking in the engine bay for 30 years or so ( assuming its the original module). Panther 2.8 owners are starting to get failures too, with some now carrying a spare !
Just as a point of info, the 6 wire module as used on the 2.8 also adds a fixed amount of ignition retard during cranking. No2 (nos) guys used to use the Duraspark unit purely to perform the ignition retard when the nitros was switched on !!!
When that part of the circuit intermittently fails, you can get some unusual sounds from the exhaust. I was following a 2.8 when it was backfiring & ejecting most if its silencer wadding. A roadside swap was done, and normal service was instantly resumed.
TerryB.
Just as a point of info, the 6 wire module as used on the 2.8 also adds a fixed amount of ignition retard during cranking. No2 (nos) guys used to use the Duraspark unit purely to perform the ignition retard when the nitros was switched on !!!
When that part of the circuit intermittently fails, you can get some unusual sounds from the exhaust. I was following a 2.8 when it was backfiring & ejecting most if its silencer wadding. A roadside swap was done, and normal service was instantly resumed.
TerryB.
Gassing Station | S Series | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff