Servicing - Ford v.s. TVR v.s. DIY
Discussion
The problem is that nothing is absolutely B&W. There are some good DIYers and there are times when a specialist/dealer has a bad day.
For every story that you can provide about DIY being better, I can show 2 or 3 where the owner has caused hundreds/thousands of pounds of damage or spent vast sums where a trip to a specialist will have the problem fixed in amoment at a fraction of the cost.
The problem with DIY servicing history is that there is little provenance to back up the claim. There may be receipts for the bits but that doesn't mean that everything has been done correctly. The condition may be fine but you don't know what is wrong underneath that shiny exterior. So my general advice is to be very aware and very cautious about buying any car that does not have a TVR orientated and full service history. Even if it does, get it inspected. As I state in the book... it's a good sign but don't rely on it.
One of the aims of the bible is to inform people where they may be getting out of their depth and where specialist help is needed. However I do get very worried when I hear comments that the TVR is an easy car to service after all it is just a Ford/Rover and why should I spend the extra money. Would you take a Mazda to a Ford garage? Probably not, yet they have the same basic engine technology. Why then do it with a TVR? How about a Lotus Europa to a Renault garage? Same engine and transmission.
I am not against DIYing, indeed I hope the bibles have been a big help in guiding people through this and prevented them from making mistakes, but neither do I class it as the preferred way to look after these cars. It is an alternative but one that probably has more risk to it than any other. If you go down that route then I feel you need to understand the potential risks involved.
It will make the car harder to sell because of the lack of provenance and the quality of the work will depend on your knowledge and skill which means you may miss somthing. Equally you can argue this is why you want to do it. You won't have access to the tools necessary for the job (or make it easier) but you can save on labour costs although the job may take a lot longer. It can be enjoyable and satisfying. It can equally be a frustrating one. In the end, it is a decision that only the owner can make.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
For every story that you can provide about DIY being better, I can show 2 or 3 where the owner has caused hundreds/thousands of pounds of damage or spent vast sums where a trip to a specialist will have the problem fixed in amoment at a fraction of the cost.
The problem with DIY servicing history is that there is little provenance to back up the claim. There may be receipts for the bits but that doesn't mean that everything has been done correctly. The condition may be fine but you don't know what is wrong underneath that shiny exterior. So my general advice is to be very aware and very cautious about buying any car that does not have a TVR orientated and full service history. Even if it does, get it inspected. As I state in the book... it's a good sign but don't rely on it.
One of the aims of the bible is to inform people where they may be getting out of their depth and where specialist help is needed. However I do get very worried when I hear comments that the TVR is an easy car to service after all it is just a Ford/Rover and why should I spend the extra money. Would you take a Mazda to a Ford garage? Probably not, yet they have the same basic engine technology. Why then do it with a TVR? How about a Lotus Europa to a Renault garage? Same engine and transmission.
I am not against DIYing, indeed I hope the bibles have been a big help in guiding people through this and prevented them from making mistakes, but neither do I class it as the preferred way to look after these cars. It is an alternative but one that probably has more risk to it than any other. If you go down that route then I feel you need to understand the potential risks involved.
It will make the car harder to sell because of the lack of provenance and the quality of the work will depend on your knowledge and skill which means you may miss somthing. Equally you can argue this is why you want to do it. You won't have access to the tools necessary for the job (or make it easier) but you can save on labour costs although the job may take a lot longer. It can be enjoyable and satisfying. It can equally be a frustrating one. In the end, it is a decision that only the owner can make.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
quote:I take my mondeo to an alfa garage to get serviced (it's local and they collect the car and bring it back). Every time they service it they complement me on what a well built and solid feeling car it is! LOL.
Would you take a Mazda to a Ford garage? Probably not, yet they have the same basic engine technology. Why then do it with a TVR? How about a Lotus Europa to a Renault garage? Same engine and transmission.
--
Mark
I think this is a horses for courses debate here.
But I totally agree with Johnos last comments (see my last post)as I also have an MGB and the advice given by so called specialists over the years has been really bad. So many times I've gone against their advice and fixed things correctly for less effort and money. And to back up my work I've recently taken the MG to an independant dealer because I'm going to sell it, and asked him to inspect it/drive it and find fault with it - and he found nothing.
I do agree with SHs' comment with the Ford only service history, but we are talking about cars that are falling into the classic car bracket now and a large number of classics are DIY serviced these days, and most people don't seem put off by this.
Unless the buyer isnt mechanically minded, most people buying a classic would do some reseach into the car of there choice before buying - like buying the S bible before buying an S. Otherwise yes, no doubt he/she would use a dealer.
If you are mechanically minded and have done your research, then you should be able to spot all the signs of a good or a diuffer without having dealer stamps in the book.
Edited by Dave_H on Friday 11th January 18:26
But I totally agree with Johnos last comments (see my last post)as I also have an MGB and the advice given by so called specialists over the years has been really bad. So many times I've gone against their advice and fixed things correctly for less effort and money. And to back up my work I've recently taken the MG to an independant dealer because I'm going to sell it, and asked him to inspect it/drive it and find fault with it - and he found nothing.
I do agree with SHs' comment with the Ford only service history, but we are talking about cars that are falling into the classic car bracket now and a large number of classics are DIY serviced these days, and most people don't seem put off by this.
Unless the buyer isnt mechanically minded, most people buying a classic would do some reseach into the car of there choice before buying - like buying the S bible before buying an S. Otherwise yes, no doubt he/she would use a dealer.
If you are mechanically minded and have done your research, then you should be able to spot all the signs of a good or a diuffer without having dealer stamps in the book.
Edited by Dave_H on Friday 11th January 18:26
I would go along with SH point of view if the cars were a bit newer but we are talking about cars that are approching classic status.
I respect SH views, however he is sponsored by two TVR specialist. I do get my car serviced by one of those specialist but only because I am a lazzy b******
Mark
I respect SH views, however he is sponsored by two TVR specialist. I do get my car serviced by one of those specialist but only because I am a lazzy b******
Mark
quote:
I would go along with SH point of view if the cars were a bit newer but we are talking about cars that are approching classic status.
The classic status is not the point. Even the S1 is a 140 mph sports car and it needs to be kept in a first rate condition irrespective of whether they are a classic. What has happened is that the low cost has meant that they have become available to a group of owners that are willing to DIY. Not a problem but often their background and experience is severely lacking and this is what leads to problems. One of the reasons why the S book grew so much was to cater for this group and will continue to do so, so that the information that will be necessary in 20-30 years time will have been captured.
The problem is that this is often used as an excuse "along with" I'll never drive it fast so it doesn't matter if the brakes/tyre/suspension/ is not upto scratch. I have got fed up with the number of times that owmers have emailed something along the line I have a car that is not running correctly and my mate/dog/cat's best friend says it is the spurzel/wrangler/bodgit. I replaced it and it cost me 100 pounds and it hasn't cured the problem and the Ford delaer tha supplied me with the bit won't refund me my money.
I know of several cases where the whole fuel injection was replaced part by part only to find that the problem was something else. That is where the benefit of going somewhere else comes in. This is now some common I've called it the "let's replace the injection system by trial and error" syndrome.
The other issue is that along with let's slag off the specialist/dealer is the I DIY'd it and did things that the specialist couldn't or saved so much money I bought a second TVR. This is only natural as bad news is also much more interesting than good. One of the reasons that TVR are tarred with a reliability problem is that you look at sites like this at all the problems and wow there must be a real isuue. You don't see as many "my car started today and was fine" postings.... Looking at site like this can give a very distorted picture of what reality is like.
So to cut a long story short. I try and give a balanced view with the pros and cons and in the end, let the owner decide. If they DIY then fine but at least they have made an informed decision based on constructive assessments.
quote:
I respect SH views, however he is sponsored by two TVR specialist. I do get my car serviced by one of those specialist but only because I am a lazzy b******
Well actually this year, it is only Tower View. Wedge and I have split perfectedly amicably mainly as Wedge were focussing more on the Tasmin Racers. BTW do not forget that it is the specialists who are often remanufacturing parts to keep the cars going and without them life would be a lot harder than it is. So whether you think they are God's gift or spawn of the devil, we should be thankful that they care enough to do this. Alright they probably want to make some money as well but you know what I mean.
As for servicing... When I had the various S series cars, Tower View did the servicing. The first Griff 500 and Cerbera were serviced by Team Central. The current Griff 500 is serviced by Tower View mainly because I spend most of my car maintaining/rebuilding/developing time on the 520. Down there again this Saturday doing the biggest brake upgrade I can find and new wheelarch extensions.
Don't forget that all TVRs are handbuilt performance cars. If you were looking for a classic Porsche, Ferrari or an E-Type would you think a DIY service history was ok.
How many classic Ferrari owners do their own DIY servicing? A TVR needs similar care and is different to a 10 /11 year old Sierra.
At the end of the day its your own choice.
Cheers,
JSG.
How many classic Ferrari owners do their own DIY servicing? A TVR needs similar care and is different to a 10 /11 year old Sierra.
At the end of the day its your own choice.
Cheers,
JSG.
What a fantastic range of answers, thanks loads to all of you for posting... 
So now we are in the ralms of:
Preffered: Use a Specialist. (once you've found a good one)
Other option: DIY
Last Chance if your lazy: Ford Garage
I think one of the interesting points, and one that I hadn't realy thought of was "..the low cost has meant that they have become available to a group of owners that are willing to DIY". Because, we (people like me) have bought a "cheap" car, and are then striving to give it value (a.k.a make sure it doesn't loose any), and if that is our secondary goal (after driving it) then the formula is a simple one.
What is the perceived loss in value to the car if it doesn't have a TVR specialist history v.s increased cost spent in servicing from the specialist.
So, lets say services every 6 months at a specialist £300 a go.. £600 p.a
Against, DIY service parts £ 80 a go (please correct me if I'm off the mark).. £160 p.a
So, if I own the car for 3 years it's cost (excluding tyres, and miscelaneous) £1800 for the specialist, or £480 for DIY. Saving £1320.
So 15 year old S1.5 for sale 2004.. am I going to get £1300 less for the car cos' its got DIY history..?
(and perhaps the answer is yes..???)
Cheers
Matt.
Edited by M@H on Monday 14th January 11:52
So now we are in the ralms of:
Preffered: Use a Specialist. (once you've found a good one)
Other option: DIY
Last Chance if your lazy: Ford Garage
I think one of the interesting points, and one that I hadn't realy thought of was "..the low cost has meant that they have become available to a group of owners that are willing to DIY". Because, we (people like me) have bought a "cheap" car, and are then striving to give it value (a.k.a make sure it doesn't loose any), and if that is our secondary goal (after driving it
) then the formula is a simple one. What is the perceived loss in value to the car if it doesn't have a TVR specialist history v.s increased cost spent in servicing from the specialist.
So, lets say services every 6 months at a specialist £300 a go.. £600 p.a
Against, DIY service parts £ 80 a go (please correct me if I'm off the mark).. £160 p.a
So, if I own the car for 3 years it's cost (excluding tyres, and miscelaneous) £1800 for the specialist, or £480 for DIY. Saving £1320.
So 15 year old S1.5 for sale 2004.. am I going to get £1300 less for the car cos' its got DIY history..?
(and perhaps the answer is yes..???)
Cheers
Matt.
Edited by M@H on Monday 14th January 11:52
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