A9 average speed cameras

[Cat]

brrapp said:

As I understand it, any__ carriageways split by a physical divide are classed as dual carriageways. Maybe it wasn't the intention when building them in this way, but if they fit the legal definition then they __are dual carriageway sections and the speed limit for a dual carriageway should apply.

Unfortunately what you have posted is not the legal definition of a dual carriageway. The actual legal definition is given in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 which say a "dual carriageway road" is

TSRGD 2016 said:

a road which comprises a central reservation and “all-purpose dual carriageway road” means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway

The regs also helpfully define a "central reservation" as

TSRGD 2016 said:

(a) any land between the carriageways of a road comprising two carriageways; or
(b) any permanent work (other than a traffic island) in the carriageway of a road,

which separates the carriageway or, as the case may be, the part of the carriageway, which is to be used by traffic moving in one direction from the carriageway or part of the carriageway which is to be used (whether at all times or at particular times only) by traffic moving in the other direction

There is no definition of what constitutes a traffic island so you have to rely on the signs which are present to show whether or not it is a dual carriageway. If the road at Bankfoot was a dual carriageway the turn left signs when joining the road would have supplementary "Dual Carriageway" plates, they don't. Also if it was a dual carriageway there would be dual carriageway ends warning signs, which there aren't.

The A9 at Bankfoot is single carriageway and is subject to single carriageway speed limits.

Cat

[Vipers]

Cat said:

If the road at Bankfoot was a dual carriageway the turn left signs when joining the road would have supplementary "Dual Carriageway" plates, they don't. Also if it was a dual carriageway there would be dual carriageway ends warning signs, which there aren't.


Cat

Strangely enough on the A90 south of Aberdeen I have googled a few junctions which join the A90 Dual carriageway, and can't find any with the Dual Carriageway sign on, just the NSL sign.

P.S., looked at some more junctions and only found one with the Dual Carriageway sign on, just sloppy I guess, but it does mean lack of signage doesn't necessarily mean it's not a dual carriageway, just saying.

Edited by Vipers on Wednesday 11th April 17:29

[Cat]

Vipers said:

Strangely enough on the A90 south of Aberdeen I have googled a few junctions which join the A90 Dual carriageway, and can't find any with the Dual Carriageway sign on, just the NSL sign.

P.S., looked at some more junctions and only found one with the Dual Carriageway sign on, just sloppy I guess, but it does mean lack of signage doesn't necessarily mean it's not a dual carriageway, just saying.

Do they have the blue turn left arrow with no plate or is there no arrow either? If the physical nature of the junction makes it obvious that left is the only way to go (e.g. a slip road) then the arrow if often omitted. It the turn left arrow is there it should be plated.

Cat

[Vipers]

Cat said:

Vipers said:

Strangely enough on the A90 south of Aberdeen I have googled a few junctions which join the A90 Dual carriageway, and can't find any with the Dual Carriageway sign on, just the NSL sign.

P.S., looked at some more junctions and only found one with the Dual Carriageway sign on, just sloppy I guess, but it does mean lack of signage doesn't necessarily mean it's not a dual carriageway, just saying.

Do they have the blue turn left arrow with no plate or is there no arrow either? If the physical nature of the junction makes it obvious that left is the only way to go (e.g. a slip road) then the arrow if often omitted. It the turn left arrow is there it should be plated.

Cat

Most have just this 9C9V2RJR+JV

Thismlink should show it on google maps.

PS., just noticed there's is a blue sign when your on the A90, but not on approach, oh well.

Edited by Vipers on Wednesday 11th April 18:44

[Bizmo]

Bizmo said:

I got my license last month and was on a return trip from North England, eventually joining the A9 this week. I didn't click that I was passing the average speed cams north of Dunblane as my passenger was diabetic with low blood and we stupidly had no sugar supplies left. We eventually pulled into Auchterarder and I'd guess that I was going at around 80mph between each set of average speed cams. I know it's been thrown around a few times in this thread already but no solid answers, does anybody think that you can receive multiple tickets for the same offence on the same stretch of road by ASCs? When I rejoined from Auchterarder to Perth I was well within the speed limit so no issues after that, it's just between Dunblade and Auchterarder that I'm worried about. I've also heard a lot about these cameras not always being in use and it was very late at night, so not much traffic on the road at all.

Didn't end up receiving an NIP at all for this a bit questionable since I did reach 90mph at some points, but I don't think I was going far above 80mbps on average... Maybe I was given a chance since I wasn't too far above but to be honest, I'm not sure if they're even on between Dunblane and Auchterarder.

[MidnightXR6]

Ive always wondered about the average speed cameras.

Haven't driven the A9 since they were installed.

On the A90 to Aberdeen though. Why is there only one camera covering both lanes? Most other places seem to be 2 covering a lane each?

[Halmyre]

MidnightXR6 said:

Ive always wondered about the average speed cameras.

Haven't driven the A9 since they were installed.

On the A90 to Aberdeen though. Why is there only one camera covering both lanes? Most other places seem to be 2 covering a lane each?

Improved ANPR technology?

I think average speed cameras have made things better on the A9, apart from Dunblane to Perth, and made things worse on the A90.

[Vipers]

Halmyre said:

MidnightXR6 said:

Ive always wondered about the average speed cameras.

Haven't driven the A9 since they were installed.

On the A90 to Aberdeen though. Why is there only one camera covering both lanes? Most other places seem to be 2 covering a lane each?

Improved ANPR technology?

I think average speed cameras have made things better on the A9, apart from Dunblane to Perth, and made things worse on the A90.

Don't know about A90 south of Stonehaven, but a nightmare heading north to Aberdeen from Portlethen. Down to 50 for ANWPR road works, no worries, but why oh why do some drivers feel the need to pace the car in lane 1 preventing anyone who dares to want to do 51.

With no cars in front they stay there unrill nearly at the roundabout at BOD, then slow and pull up behind the car in L1

And there is always one who drives in L2 regardless, often I slowly catch them up when I am in L1, slowly pass them and they still stay in L2.

Of interest why is it worse generally speaking on the A90 where it is NSL, same problem?

[JM]

Cat said:

The A9 at Bankfoot is single carriageway and is subject to single carriageway speed limits.

Cat

What about the section with the junction at the north end of Pitlochry?


The section was formerly two lanes in each direction and a full central reservation.
Only change now is that there is only one lane in each direction.

There are signs for HGV's showing the start and end of the 50mph limit at each end of the DC section.

Edited by JM on Monday 23 April 18:30

[matchmaker]

JM said:

Cat said:

The A9 at Bankfoot is single carriageway and is subject to single carriageway speed limits.

Cat

What about the section with the junction at the north end of Pitlochry?

https://goo.gl/maps/VYdyuK5bzxN2

The section was formerly two lanes in each direction and a full central reservation.
Only change now is that there is only one lane in each direction.

There are signs for HGV's showing the start and end of the 50mph limit at each end of the DC section.

The number of lanes is irrelevant to whether a road is a dual carriageway.

[Terminator X]

Drive Blind said:

s2kjock said:

I've not heard of anyone being done by the average cameras I have to say - I am sure I read somewhere that they are not all operational, although I can't imagine why.

the stories I hear on the A77 average speed cameras suggest that there are only 2 pairs of working cameras.

to add weight to the rumour I've been increasingly seeing unmarked cars parked in lay by's using the speed gun. Why would you need to do that if all the cameras were working ?

Easy / easier to tell at night as the operational ones have a purple glow to them eg infra red etc. I don't like to chance it though so just slow to 5mph over the posted limit and carry on. Never received a ticket on such roads doing that.

TX.

[JM]

matchmaker said:

JM said:

Cat said:

The A9 at Bankfoot is single carriageway and is subject to single carriageway speed limits.

Cat

What about the section with the junction at the north end of Pitlochry?

https://goo.gl/maps/VYdyuK5bzxN2

The section was formerly two lanes in each direction and a full central reservation.
Only change now is that there is only one lane in each direction.

There are signs for HGV's showing the start and end of the 50mph limit at each end of the DC section.

The number of lanes is irrelevant to whether a road is a dual carriageway.

Thanks for the input, but what is the relevance between your comment and my query?

[Cat]

JM said:

What about the section with the junction at the north end of Pitlochry?

https://goo.gl/maps/VYdyuK5bzxN2

The section was formerly two lanes in each direction and a full central reservation.
Only change now is that there is only one lane in each direction.

There are signs for HGV's showing the start and end of the 50mph limit at each end of the DC section.

Same situation as Bankfoot, it is a traffic island as opposed to a central reservation. Compare the signage there to the signage at the dual carriageway section approx 1 mile north.

The section you linked to has

• no "dual carriageway" plate on the turn left arrow at the junctions
• no "dual carriageway" plate below the keep left arrow/no entry sign at the start of the physical separation
• no warning signs for the end of the dual carriageway
• no "dual carriageway ahead" signs on the approach to it.

Cat

[simoid]

Cat said:

Same situation as Bankfoot, it is a traffic island as opposed to a central reservation. Compare the signage there to the signage at the dual carriageway section approx 1 mile north.

The section you linked to has

• no "dual carriageway" plate on the turn left arrow at the junctions
• no "dual carriageway" plate below the keep left arrow/no entry sign at the start of the physical separation
• no warning signs for the end of the dual carriageway
• no "dual carriageway ahead" signs on the approach to it.

Cat

This is confusing as fk. It looks and quacks like a dual carriageway for more than a short period of time.

[Vipers]

Cat said:

JM said:

What about the section with the junction at the north end of Pitlochry?

https://goo.gl/maps/VYdyuK5bzxN2

The section was formerly two lanes in each direction and a full central reservation.
Only change now is that there is only one lane in each direction.

There are signs for HGV's showing the start and end of the 50mph limit at each end of the DC section.

Same situation as Bankfoot, it is a traffic island as opposed to a central reservation. Compare the signage there to the signage at the dual carriageway section approx 1 mile north.

The section you linked to has

• no "dual carriageway" plate on the turn left arrow at the junctions
• no "dual carriageway" plate below the keep left arrow/no entry sign at the start of the physical separation
• no warning signs for the end of the dual carriageway
• no "dual carriageway ahead" signs on the approach to it.

Cat

Why does the link take me here https://shop.magicland.it/Vendita/PacchettoFamigli...

Confused.....

P.S. Got it, link should say "google" not "goo.gl", sorted.

Edited by Vipers on Friday 20th April 18:57

[Vipers]

MidnightXR6 said:

Ive always wondered about the average speed cameras.

Haven't driven the A9 since they were installed.

On the A90 to Aberdeen though. Why is there only one camera covering both lanes? Most other places seem to be 2 covering a lane each?

Our local paper mentioned the A90 today, it said “A90 speeders fined £92,000 in 3 months”, and the Police commander for the area said the average speed cameras network on the A90 has led to a dramatic increase in compliance by driviers on the stretch between Dundee and Stonehaven since it become operational on October 31 last year.

Looks like a bunch of drivers should have gone to spec savers, and how do they know it has increased in compliance by drivers, if it wasn’t policed before by cameras, strange comment that.

[JM]

Cat said:

JM said:

What about the section with the junction at the north end of Pitlochry?

https://goo.gl/maps/f8NWGyYtbV72

The section was formerly two lanes in each direction and a full central reservation.
Only change now is that there is only one lane in each direction.

There are signs for HGV's showing the start and end of the 50mph limit at each end of the DC section.

Same situation as Bankfoot, it is a traffic island as opposed to a central reservation. Compare the signage there to the signage at the dual carriageway section approx 1 mile north.

The section you linked to has

• no "dual carriageway" plate on the turn left arrow at the junctions
• no "dual carriageway" plate below the keep left arrow/no entry sign at the start of the physical separation
• no warning signs for the end of the dual carriageway
• no "dual carriageway ahead" signs on the approach to it.

Cat

What about the HGV speed limit change signs?

Why does the limit change if the road is the same?
And why only for HGV's?

Edited by JM on Monday 23 April 18:31

[Cat]

JM said:

What about the HGV speed limit change signs?

Why does the limit change if the road is the same?
And why only for HGV's?

https://goo.gl/maps/Xv2FTZM3ZAP2

Good question. Looking at the actual legislation for the HGV speed limits on the A9 it appears, that section, unlike Bankfoot, has been considered as a dual carriageway despite not having any signage.

As simoid stated it is somewhat confusing.

Cat

[JM]

Cat said:

JM said:

What about the HGV speed limit change signs?

Why does the limit change if the road is the same?
And why only for HGV's?

Good question. Looking at the actual legislation for the HGV speed limits on the A9 it appears, that section, unlike Bankfoot, has been considered as a dual carriageway despite not having any signage.

As simoid stated it is somewhat confusing.

Cat

When it was a two lane DC there was no signs at the start showing 'Dual Carriageway'.


Also as an aside, since they made it a single lane DC they have shortened the slip roads for joining making it harder for larger or slower vehicles to join. They could've left the longer slip road or even made the hatching are the inside lane, or made it a left turn/merge lane only either side of the turning. So much for safety improvements!

Edited by JM on Monday 23 April 18:31

[Vipers]

JM said:

Cat said:

JM said:

What about the section with the junction at the north end of Pitlochry?

https://goo.gl/maps/f8NWGyYtbV72

The section was formerly two lanes in each direction and a full central reservation.
Only change now is that there is only one lane in each direction.

There are signs for HGV's showing the start and end of the 50mph limit at each end of the DC section.

Same situation as Bankfoot, it is a traffic island as opposed to a central reservation. Compare the signage there to the signage at the dual carriageway section approx 1 mile north.

The section you linked to has

• no "dual carriageway" plate on the turn left arrow at the junctions
• no "dual carriageway" plate below the keep left arrow/no entry sign at the start of the physical separation
• no warning signs for the end of the dual carriageway
• no "dual carriageway ahead" signs on the approach to it.

Cat

What about the HGV speed limit change signs?

Why does the limit change if the road is the same?
And why only for HGV's?

https://goo.gl/maps/Xv2FTZM3ZAP2

Link takes me to https://shop.magicland.it/Vendita/PacchettoFamigli...

Tried "google" instead of "goo.gl" but no joy, confused........