A90 Laurencekirk Speed Camera.
Discussion
Andy2307 said:
All
To clarify I was not lucky and I was not driving at 64 mph. As a Chartered Engineer, I know a great deal about calibration also root cause analysis and failure mode effect analysis, likewise RTA investigations.
1. The certificate of calibration seems to indicate that the certificate references five cameras? Is this correct and which is the camera applicable to this case?
2. The certificate of calibration is dated 02 December 2014 to the 01 December 2015, this indicates that the camera has a depreciation value of accuracy of 75% based on the picture date being the 23/09/2015. This implies the camera has only a 25% accuracy rating!
3. Confirm the re-calibration date for the camera and depreciation of accuracy over a twelve month period? The police paperwork clearly stated date of calibration.
I'm only a lowly unchartered engineer who uses calibrated tools frequently. As a chartered engineer, you should know that calibration does NOT work like this. If an item degraded to 25% accuracy, do you not think things would be calibrated every month? Better yet, every day! How often do your tools get calibrated in that case?To clarify I was not lucky and I was not driving at 64 mph. As a Chartered Engineer, I know a great deal about calibration also root cause analysis and failure mode effect analysis, likewise RTA investigations.
1. The certificate of calibration seems to indicate that the certificate references five cameras? Is this correct and which is the camera applicable to this case?
2. The certificate of calibration is dated 02 December 2014 to the 01 December 2015, this indicates that the camera has a depreciation value of accuracy of 75% based on the picture date being the 23/09/2015. This implies the camera has only a 25% accuracy rating!
3. Confirm the re-calibration date for the camera and depreciation of accuracy over a twelve month period? The police paperwork clearly stated date of calibration.
I'm not bothered about your speeding, or apparent lack of, but your opinion on the camera is simply wrong
Two points
1. GATSO the people that make the camera, verified the issue of calibration. You also choose to ignore the comments from other independent engineers on the matter.
2. The two metre distance between white lines, stated in writing by the Police was wrong and is very relevant in the matter of distance and time. As per penalty notice that was issued by the police.
So I suggest you write and speak to Gatsco or otherwise.
Have a nice day : )
1. GATSO the people that make the camera, verified the issue of calibration. You also choose to ignore the comments from other independent engineers on the matter.
2. The two metre distance between white lines, stated in writing by the Police was wrong and is very relevant in the matter of distance and time. As per penalty notice that was issued by the police.
So I suggest you write and speak to Gatsco or otherwise.
Have a nice day : )
A BBC TV local news programme has found there's reason to doubt the accuracy of the Gatso, the workhorse of the Government's speed camera scheme.
"Look East" revealed on Friday that Gatso speed camera calibration procedures raise an anomaly that casts doubt on the evidence from around half of the devices. About half the Gatsos sent off for routine calibration had to be repaired before the calibration process was completed.
This suggests that around half the cameras became faulty at some point during the year before calibration. As road safety campaign Safe Speed pointed out, without knowing when the faults first appeared, any camera affected can't be relied on to provide accurate evidence in court.
This came to light when Sally Chidzoy of BBC TV Look East obtained camera calibration invoices under the Freedom of Information Act. The invoices so far obtained apply to Essex and Hertfordshire cameras. It's likely that a similar situation applies to all Gatso cameras in every area.
Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign said: "Nothing about the incompetence of speed camera operations surprises me any more, but this particular blunder is certainly of epic proportions.
"This information casts very substantial doubts on the safety of evidence from thousands of cameras used against hundreds of thousands of motorists.
"Confidence in speed cameras is already at rock bottom, but this information will drive it down further. I can only imagine that hundreds of thousands - or even millions - of motorists are going to be asking for their money back."
Tom Magner, a forensic engineer specialising in speed cameras told the BBC that the odds were stacked against the motorist, and that Gatsos should be calibrated more frequently.
"It's a precision piece of equipment and there's a very tight tolerance on which it is operated in order to be accurate," he said. "So when you're dealing with the sort of speeds you deal with in these particular cases, it's asking a lot of that equipment to operate time and time and time again so accurately.
"I don't think one annual calibration is sufficient. I think every six months at least but every time the camera is used, it should be checked to make sure that it is working properly."
"Look East" revealed on Friday that Gatso speed camera calibration procedures raise an anomaly that casts doubt on the evidence from around half of the devices. About half the Gatsos sent off for routine calibration had to be repaired before the calibration process was completed.
This suggests that around half the cameras became faulty at some point during the year before calibration. As road safety campaign Safe Speed pointed out, without knowing when the faults first appeared, any camera affected can't be relied on to provide accurate evidence in court.
This came to light when Sally Chidzoy of BBC TV Look East obtained camera calibration invoices under the Freedom of Information Act. The invoices so far obtained apply to Essex and Hertfordshire cameras. It's likely that a similar situation applies to all Gatso cameras in every area.
Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign said: "Nothing about the incompetence of speed camera operations surprises me any more, but this particular blunder is certainly of epic proportions.
"This information casts very substantial doubts on the safety of evidence from thousands of cameras used against hundreds of thousands of motorists.
"Confidence in speed cameras is already at rock bottom, but this information will drive it down further. I can only imagine that hundreds of thousands - or even millions - of motorists are going to be asking for their money back."
Tom Magner, a forensic engineer specialising in speed cameras told the BBC that the odds were stacked against the motorist, and that Gatsos should be calibrated more frequently.
"It's a precision piece of equipment and there's a very tight tolerance on which it is operated in order to be accurate," he said. "So when you're dealing with the sort of speeds you deal with in these particular cases, it's asking a lot of that equipment to operate time and time and time again so accurately.
"I don't think one annual calibration is sufficient. I think every six months at least but every time the camera is used, it should be checked to make sure that it is working properly."
Experienced electrical engineer Andrew now claims to have expert evidence showing that Gatsos can give false readings when the outside temperature drops below 0*C.
He believes the cameras are only calibrated for accuracy between 0*C and 70*C, and at lower temperatures vital timing circuitry is slowed inside the unit.
Related Articles
Driving test is 75 01 Jun 2010
This means as he passed the camera, when the temperature was minus -5*C, the normal half-second pause between the two images used to measure speed was delayed.
It would then give the impression that the car had travelled further over the white lines painted on the road used to calculate distance and give a higher speed reading.
He has now taken his appeal to Cambridge Crown Court, where he hopes to push for the matter to be taken to judicial review at the High Court in London.
Mr Fowler of Shepreth, Cambs., who had held a clean licence since passing his test over 20 years ago, said the risk of thousands in legal costs is worth it if justice can be done for all drivers.
He said: ''It's me versus the system, there's no two ways about it, and it is pretty daunting to be honest.
''I'm nowhere near being a rich man but I don't mind how much this costs me because it is for a good cause, this is for all motorists.
''If I'm successful everyone will be at their crown court with speeding cases. Everyone will be able to appeal.''
He was flashed by the rear facing camera at 6.12am on February 2 last year on Trumpington Road on his way to work at Cambridge Railway Station.
Rather than accept a £60 fine and three points, he took the matter to trial at Cambridge Magistrates' Court, where he lost and was handed a £350 bill in fine and costs plus four points.
However he has now taken his case to appeal and appeared before Judge Anthony Bate at Cambridge Crown Court on Wednesday, who set a hearing date for July.
In court papers he claims the integrated electrical circuit which sets the camera timer is not guaranteed to work below 0*C, and only ever calibrated at room temperature.
Mr Fowler, who lives with wife Selina and children aged 18, 14 and 12, is representing himself in court to help keep legal costs down.
He added: "If it's so cold the capacitor on the circuit can't hold its charge or is damaged the flash will not go off in time.
"I drove past that camera every day for 12 months and it never flashed.
"I have no reason to believe I was speeding that day. I checked my speedometer and I was doing just over 30mph.
"I'm not anti-speed cameras. They are a piece of electronics on the side of the road designed to do a job. But they have to be right and they have to be correct.
"The Home Office needs to take a fresh look as to whether the Gatsos work.
"The whole thing is unfair. The motorist is being bullied."
Hugh Bladon, co-founder of the Association of British Drivers (ABD), said that the case could be an important development for motorists.
He said: ''We do feel that some of the readings from these cameras are suspect.
''An awful lot of people lose their licences, livelihoods and even jobs and mortgages because of speeding penalties.
''If the case succeeds in proving that cameras are suspect below a certain temperature then the floodgates will open for further appeals.''
Gatso cameras are manufactured by Dutch firm Gatsometer and calibrated at their head quarters in Holland annually to ensure accuracy and Home Office compliance.
He believes the cameras are only calibrated for accuracy between 0*C and 70*C, and at lower temperatures vital timing circuitry is slowed inside the unit.
Related Articles
Driving test is 75 01 Jun 2010
This means as he passed the camera, when the temperature was minus -5*C, the normal half-second pause between the two images used to measure speed was delayed.
It would then give the impression that the car had travelled further over the white lines painted on the road used to calculate distance and give a higher speed reading.
He has now taken his appeal to Cambridge Crown Court, where he hopes to push for the matter to be taken to judicial review at the High Court in London.
Mr Fowler of Shepreth, Cambs., who had held a clean licence since passing his test over 20 years ago, said the risk of thousands in legal costs is worth it if justice can be done for all drivers.
He said: ''It's me versus the system, there's no two ways about it, and it is pretty daunting to be honest.
''I'm nowhere near being a rich man but I don't mind how much this costs me because it is for a good cause, this is for all motorists.
''If I'm successful everyone will be at their crown court with speeding cases. Everyone will be able to appeal.''
He was flashed by the rear facing camera at 6.12am on February 2 last year on Trumpington Road on his way to work at Cambridge Railway Station.
Rather than accept a £60 fine and three points, he took the matter to trial at Cambridge Magistrates' Court, where he lost and was handed a £350 bill in fine and costs plus four points.
However he has now taken his case to appeal and appeared before Judge Anthony Bate at Cambridge Crown Court on Wednesday, who set a hearing date for July.
In court papers he claims the integrated electrical circuit which sets the camera timer is not guaranteed to work below 0*C, and only ever calibrated at room temperature.
Mr Fowler, who lives with wife Selina and children aged 18, 14 and 12, is representing himself in court to help keep legal costs down.
He added: "If it's so cold the capacitor on the circuit can't hold its charge or is damaged the flash will not go off in time.
"I drove past that camera every day for 12 months and it never flashed.
"I have no reason to believe I was speeding that day. I checked my speedometer and I was doing just over 30mph.
"I'm not anti-speed cameras. They are a piece of electronics on the side of the road designed to do a job. But they have to be right and they have to be correct.
"The Home Office needs to take a fresh look as to whether the Gatsos work.
"The whole thing is unfair. The motorist is being bullied."
Hugh Bladon, co-founder of the Association of British Drivers (ABD), said that the case could be an important development for motorists.
He said: ''We do feel that some of the readings from these cameras are suspect.
''An awful lot of people lose their licences, livelihoods and even jobs and mortgages because of speeding penalties.
''If the case succeeds in proving that cameras are suspect below a certain temperature then the floodgates will open for further appeals.''
Gatso cameras are manufactured by Dutch firm Gatsometer and calibrated at their head quarters in Holland annually to ensure accuracy and Home Office compliance.
Sandy59 said:
Not sure if this is a new tactic, went past the northbound camera this evening and a mobile speed van was parked up just past the camera, I guess trying to catch drivers who hadn't slowed down to 50mph by the actual sign south of the camera.
It was in the lay-by at Stonehaven just before the speed camera on the Northbound lane tonight. It'll catch you as soon as you come around the bend.There has been a few positioned near cameras lately. There is also a few Gatsos been removed from the A90.
Sandy59 said:
Not sure if this is a new tactic, went past the northbound camera this evening and a mobile speed van was parked up just past the camera, I guess trying to catch drivers who hadn't slowed down to 50mph by the actual sign south of the camera.
Saw worse than that last year. Camera van 2 miles from the northbound 50 camera. Then another camera van 2 miles further on! I totally agree with the 50 zone due to how dangerous that junction is, but two vans in 4 miles . ReallyBeato said:
Sandy59 said:
Not sure if this is a new tactic, went past the northbound camera this evening and a mobile speed van was parked up just past the camera, I guess trying to catch drivers who hadn't slowed down to 50mph by the actual sign south of the camera.
Saw worse than that last year. Camera van 2 miles from the northbound 50 camera. Then another camera van 2 miles further on! I totally agree with the 50 zone due to how dangerous that junction is, but two vans in 4 miles . ReallyMaking people paranoid that they'll easily be caught speeding there is probably a decent strategy.
Beato said:
Sandy59 said:
Not sure if this is a new tactic, went past the northbound camera this evening and a mobile speed van was parked up just past the camera, I guess trying to catch drivers who hadn't slowed down to 50mph by the actual sign south of the camera.
Saw worse than that last year. Camera van 2 miles from the northbound 50 camera. Then another camera van 2 miles further on! I totally agree with the 50 zone due to how dangerous that junction is, but two vans in 4 miles . ReallyPatrick Bateman said:
I've just driven from Aberdeen back home down the A90 and as much as I want to disagree with speed cameras in general, the layout of the road with the crossings it has is so bloody poor you don't really want anyone horsing on very much I wouldn't say.
^^This, that stretch of road is always an accident waiting to happen. I hate cameras too but if anything that stretch could be a 40 rather than a 50, albeit for a shorter stretch.
Gassing Station | Scotland | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff