Edinburgh traffic..... gawd help us !
Discussion
ch108 said:
The Castlecary viaduct is a listed building I believe, which posed the problem of altering or replacing the bridge. I think they did look at trying to split 6 lanes through the existing arches, but there was concern about cars trying to reach the hard shoulder if they had an issue in the outer lanes while passing through an arch. Also on the uphill southbound side after the arches, there was supposed to be a crawler lane for lorries. Not sure what happened to that, as the lane is there, but is just used as a mile long slip road to the Old Inns off slip into Cumbernauld.
Thinking about this, wouldn't the easiest move have been something similar to what happens at the M74/M8 merge in Govan, i.e. move the M876 split/merge to be before the arches and put a barrier all the way from the arches to the current split. I realise this would cause problems for the local slips just north of the arches (they'd effectively not be able to get to/from Stirling), but it would allow 2x2 lanes in each direction, so 4 in total each way, without an island for the arch supports.Either way, I can't see it happening any time soon - the time to have done this was 8 years ago when the M80 was being built.
Davie said:
On the subject of peak times, I'm trying to negotiate with work regarding a change in hours to try and avoid the worst of the traffic - basically I'll be doing Haddington to Rosyth in the morning and then the reverse at night. My thinking was to be on the road for 6am, so sort of bypass by half past then Fife for 7ish and then wait till after 6pm to do the reverse but I honestly have no idea what it's like... anybody do a similar run and able to advise when may eb the least congested times (aside for 2am on a Sunday!)
Thanks
If you can hit the bypass and then get past Sheriffhall and Hermiston by 8am I reckon you'll be ok. Coming back though it's busy from the Gyle eastbound from about 3:30pm right through to after 6. Thanks
Mr Trophy said:
I agree with all above.
I work from home and if I am needed in the office, I refuse to have any meetings before 10 and will leave around half 3 - latest.
One of the reasons I'm glad I live in town now. I've not had to drive a commute for the better part of two years as I don't miss it. I used to live near Tranent and the road / train was a misery. I work from home and if I am needed in the office, I refuse to have any meetings before 10 and will leave around half 3 - latest.
When we had a farm the cattle were allowed more space by law in the cattle cart than you get commuting on the east coast line. That and sitting next to someone who cycled and instead on man-spreading his sweaty gusset in a packed train had me wondering if it was socially acceptable to commute in a gas mask...
Remember that the main road between Glasgow and Edinburgh, the M8, is only 2 lanes both ways from Newhouse to Hermiston Gait.
There can't be many bodges worse than the M8 in Glasgow, M8 three lanes with M80 two lanes joining it making it 5 lanes wide and a mile further along at Charing Cross, it reduces to two lanes. The Gt Western Rd and Charing Cross slips should be separated from the main carriageway about half mile before the junction to prevent queue jumpers who use the slips as over/undertaking lanes then cut in thus stopping the traffic flow.
There can't be many bodges worse than the M8 in Glasgow, M8 three lanes with M80 two lanes joining it making it 5 lanes wide and a mile further along at Charing Cross, it reduces to two lanes. The Gt Western Rd and Charing Cross slips should be separated from the main carriageway about half mile before the junction to prevent queue jumpers who use the slips as over/undertaking lanes then cut in thus stopping the traffic flow.
Reading all this generally infuriates me. Anyone use the motorways west of Edinburgh for the commute to Edinburgh? I’m at my wit’s end.
I’m sure it’s getting worse generally, and this year especially. I think I recall in the early 00s leaving home by 0730 and arriving generally around 0810-0815. Nowadays I often don’t arrive til after 0815 if I leave at 0715. The other day, some colleagues took 140 minutes to do a similar journey: less than 10mph average speed. 6 times what the journey takes in light traffic. The trains have been f
ked fairly regularly recently which won’t be helping. There’s a lot of new build in West Lothian and Falkirk too.
We do try to car share if possible. Which got me thinking out loud...
- Car sharing largely doesn’t seem to exist. Straw poll “spot the car with passenger” game seems to indicate that 90% of vehicles, and a greater percentage of cars, are driver only.
- it’s costly and difficult to upgrade junctions and roads for greater capacity. We should be looking at options to use our existing tarmac more efficiently and EFFECTIVELY discourage people from taking cars (public transport isn’t effective as it’s ste for the majority of people)
- we have hundreds of miles of hard shoulder that is unused in the vast majority of cases. Some of this has now been turned into bus lane, for example at M9 Newbridge, so clearly it’s seen as optional
- the bus lanes and hard shoulders are largely empty, and often exist at lunch points, such as the Claylands 2 lanes of M9 + 2 lanes of M8 = 2 lanes, and the Newbridge various lanes of M90 + various lanes of M9 = 1 lane through Newbridge RAB for A8.
I did a bit of reading on the impacts of High occupancy vehicle lanes, and it seems that they have largely a neutral effect because they reduce the capacity of the road, so there’s swings and roundabouts. But - what if we didn’t have to reduce the capacity of the road?
TLDR/Idea for easing traffic:
Make all hard shoulders bus lanes (with a 30 or 40mph limit so there’s no need to use them in free flowing traffic)
and, this is the genius bit:
Allow vehicles with passengers to use the motorway and urban bus lanes. This will have the multiple compound effects of encouraging car sharing, directly reducing traffic and emissions, but also increasing capacity on our roads, and of course emissions and costs for commuters.
Indirect effects would also include a happier population with someone to chat to in the morning, after a longer night’s rest or more time at work to be productive.
Obviously not everyone can car share to work (often I have to travel to various areas) but the benefits of the car share & bus lane shoulders would be a reduced traffic volume on the existing lanes too. Even if it’s 1 or 2 in 100 vehicles that we save, the cumulative effects could be massive.
I want to claim back my morning.
Who’s with me??
Or how am I talking pish?
I’m sure it’s getting worse generally, and this year especially. I think I recall in the early 00s leaving home by 0730 and arriving generally around 0810-0815. Nowadays I often don’t arrive til after 0815 if I leave at 0715. The other day, some colleagues took 140 minutes to do a similar journey: less than 10mph average speed. 6 times what the journey takes in light traffic. The trains have been f
ked fairly regularly recently which won’t be helping. There’s a lot of new build in West Lothian and Falkirk too.We do try to car share if possible. Which got me thinking out loud...
- Car sharing largely doesn’t seem to exist. Straw poll “spot the car with passenger” game seems to indicate that 90% of vehicles, and a greater percentage of cars, are driver only.
- it’s costly and difficult to upgrade junctions and roads for greater capacity. We should be looking at options to use our existing tarmac more efficiently and EFFECTIVELY discourage people from taking cars (public transport isn’t effective as it’s s
te for the majority of people)- we have hundreds of miles of hard shoulder that is unused in the vast majority of cases. Some of this has now been turned into bus lane, for example at M9 Newbridge, so clearly it’s seen as optional
- the bus lanes and hard shoulders are largely empty, and often exist at lunch points, such as the Claylands 2 lanes of M9 + 2 lanes of M8 = 2 lanes, and the Newbridge various lanes of M90 + various lanes of M9 = 1 lane through Newbridge RAB for A8.
I did a bit of reading on the impacts of High occupancy vehicle lanes, and it seems that they have largely a neutral effect because they reduce the capacity of the road, so there’s swings and roundabouts. But - what if we didn’t have to reduce the capacity of the road?
TLDR/Idea for easing traffic:
Make all hard shoulders bus lanes (with a 30 or 40mph limit so there’s no need to use them in free flowing traffic)
and, this is the genius bit:
Allow vehicles with passengers to use the motorway and urban bus lanes. This will have the multiple compound effects of encouraging car sharing, directly reducing traffic and emissions, but also increasing capacity on our roads, and of course emissions and costs for commuters.
Indirect effects would also include a happier population with someone to chat to in the morning, after a longer night’s rest or more time at work to be productive.
Obviously not everyone can car share to work (often I have to travel to various areas) but the benefits of the car share & bus lane shoulders would be a reduced traffic volume on the existing lanes too. Even if it’s 1 or 2 in 100 vehicles that we save, the cumulative effects could be massive.
I want to claim back my morning.
Who’s with me??
Or how am I talking pish?
Edited by simoid on Wednesday 28th February 11:27
Allowing HOV use of bus lanes would only go against bus movements so that wouldn't work. also bus stops frequently so that would go against the traffic.
Its the pinch points that cause chaos. Gyle roundabout with traffic heading towards Edinburgh off of the bypass grid locks the roundabout. traffic along the broadway tails right back. Traffic on the bypass tails right back.
The council def want to make it hard for drivers and try to discourage by making it painful. It doesn't work. People will continue to use cars as it takes a hell of a lot to put folks off. Id rather use my car then suffer buses or trains. Hate them.
Traffic from the M9 to the A8 at Newbridge piles up as its trapped as there is no properly set out filter to get the traffic to move into the mainflow easily. Its too close to the roundabout and makes it dicy as hell to merge. speeds there are pretty fast for traffic coming of the roundabout. There is room to take away the centre reservation here and replace it with a concrete barrier. Provide three lanes along from that section to allow safe merging. trouble is there are a lot of houses along the road and that creates issues. Add in a bus stop and on street parking.
M8/M9 merge to Hermistongait needs to be three lanes or even four, there is a diverge before Hermistongait so that makes a natural lane drop point. The roundabout is exactly the same as the Gyle one, it clogs as people block the roundabout and this just knocks on to the traffic and hence we get lots of queues on the approaches.
If the council looked at the roundabout and made some simple alterations and added in some camera patrolled yellow box junctions they could sort out that disaster. The bypass is also difficult right after Hermistongait heading east. Its a busy section with no shoulders and a significant climb. Sort that out - expand the road and make it either three lanes or even add in a shoulder this will improve the flow and if you can do that then you will improve the impact on the traffic flowing into that section. Its not the cars but the HGV traffic once you slow that down it takes them a long time to get up to speed again and that slowness impacts the road capacity especially when its only two lanes. in use.
Its a pity they don't grab the bull by the horns now and concentrate on sorting out the bypass. forth bridge done, M8 link completed, M80 completed, Aberdeen bypass about complete. So now sort out the mess around Edinburgh. The change in flows when the M8 was extended to Edinburgh bypass needs to be taken into account. Make the M8 flow freeflow onto the bypass and make the bypass the M8.
The low hanging fruit ? The A7 ? give it to one of the local universities to do a study on and make suggestions for improvements. let them come back with some ideas, that will give the council a fright if someone external to them comes up with some good reasonably costed solutions for an issue the council don't see or actually maybe don't choose to see.
Back to the west end ? the airport ? some of the morning crawl can be attributed to the airport run, Well here is a solution. Build a junction with the M8 and link it to the airport. Provide some decent parking around this junction and add in a tram link from the parking to the airport.
Doesn't need to be difficult does it ?
Its the pinch points that cause chaos. Gyle roundabout with traffic heading towards Edinburgh off of the bypass grid locks the roundabout. traffic along the broadway tails right back. Traffic on the bypass tails right back.
The council def want to make it hard for drivers and try to discourage by making it painful. It doesn't work. People will continue to use cars as it takes a hell of a lot to put folks off. Id rather use my car then suffer buses or trains. Hate them.
Traffic from the M9 to the A8 at Newbridge piles up as its trapped as there is no properly set out filter to get the traffic to move into the mainflow easily. Its too close to the roundabout and makes it dicy as hell to merge. speeds there are pretty fast for traffic coming of the roundabout. There is room to take away the centre reservation here and replace it with a concrete barrier. Provide three lanes along from that section to allow safe merging. trouble is there are a lot of houses along the road and that creates issues. Add in a bus stop and on street parking.
M8/M9 merge to Hermistongait needs to be three lanes or even four, there is a diverge before Hermistongait so that makes a natural lane drop point. The roundabout is exactly the same as the Gyle one, it clogs as people block the roundabout and this just knocks on to the traffic and hence we get lots of queues on the approaches.
If the council looked at the roundabout and made some simple alterations and added in some camera patrolled yellow box junctions they could sort out that disaster. The bypass is also difficult right after Hermistongait heading east. Its a busy section with no shoulders and a significant climb. Sort that out - expand the road and make it either three lanes or even add in a shoulder this will improve the flow and if you can do that then you will improve the impact on the traffic flowing into that section. Its not the cars but the HGV traffic once you slow that down it takes them a long time to get up to speed again and that slowness impacts the road capacity especially when its only two lanes. in use.
Its a pity they don't grab the bull by the horns now and concentrate on sorting out the bypass. forth bridge done, M8 link completed, M80 completed, Aberdeen bypass about complete. So now sort out the mess around Edinburgh. The change in flows when the M8 was extended to Edinburgh bypass needs to be taken into account. Make the M8 flow freeflow onto the bypass and make the bypass the M8.
The low hanging fruit ? The A7 ? give it to one of the local universities to do a study on and make suggestions for improvements. let them come back with some ideas, that will give the council a fright if someone external to them comes up with some good reasonably costed solutions for an issue the council don't see or actually maybe don't choose to see.
Back to the west end ? the airport ? some of the morning crawl can be attributed to the airport run, Well here is a solution. Build a junction with the M8 and link it to the airport. Provide some decent parking around this junction and add in a tram link from the parking to the airport.
Doesn't need to be difficult does it ?
Aye you’re bang on. At A8 from M9, they’ve actually changed some lane markings recently which I think has fked it up still more. Right hand lane used to be for Broxburn A89 and Newbridge B7030, but now the right lane is only for Broxburn. Traffic used to flow semi freely from the left lane at lights AND the filter lane for A8, but now the left lane at lights gets clogged up from people waiting to go to M8 from roundabout and people going to B7030 from M9.
My route is often M9 to M8 to bypass, and I totally know what you mean about these bits. I think the word is “grade separation” for what might help at Hermiston Gait. The whole of West Lothian has to wait at traffic lights at the roundabout so that’s fairly slow.
Take your point about additional traffic in bus lanes clogging things up - but this would be mitigated by the tiny number of people who actually car share perhaps? We’re only talking about a few percent of cars.
The prime spot for the HOV/bus hard shoulder would I think be M9-M8 at J2. The M8 is basically an enourmous queue from J2 through 3, 3a, 4 and even sometimes 4a because of the junction there, and M9 can be queued close to J2 which is a good few miles too. The road is actually free flowing once traffic has merged and you’re on the newest stretch of M8 extension from 2 to 1. Hermiston Gait roundabout doesn’t actually slow things up much in the morning, but I notice it at night. Must be a different traffic flow density or something.
ked it up still more. Right hand lane used to be for Broxburn A89 and Newbridge B7030, but now the right lane is only for Broxburn. Traffic used to flow semi freely from the left lane at lights AND the filter lane for A8, but now the left lane at lights gets clogged up from people waiting to go to M8 from roundabout and people going to B7030 from M9. My route is often M9 to M8 to bypass, and I totally know what you mean about these bits. I think the word is “grade separation” for what might help at Hermiston Gait. The whole of West Lothian has to wait at traffic lights at the roundabout so that’s fairly slow.
Take your point about additional traffic in bus lanes clogging things up - but this would be mitigated by the tiny number of people who actually car share perhaps? We’re only talking about a few percent of cars.
The prime spot for the HOV/bus hard shoulder would I think be M9-M8 at J2. The M8 is basically an enourmous queue from J2 through 3, 3a, 4 and even sometimes 4a because of the junction there, and M9 can be queued close to J2 which is a good few miles too. The road is actually free flowing once traffic has merged and you’re on the newest stretch of M8 extension from 2 to 1. Hermiston Gait roundabout doesn’t actually slow things up much in the morning, but I notice it at night. Must be a different traffic flow density or something.
I drive from Broxburn to Little France. I ended up after a year giving up and getting an auto makes a difference.
However the roads are terrible. No longer use the M8 in the mornings. A8 Gyle bypass and have to be at the Gyle no later than 6:30. any later you are in for a slow slog over the Baberton brow. The slip road up to the bypass from Hermistongait is a dangerous bit of road. the number that come up there and expect the right to merge is amazing. give way to the main line please.
The road layout with lane one being continuous up and onto the bypass is a good idea just pity some don't see it that way. That's sometimes what happens when you work with what you have got. Maybe you need to make some investments to the infrastructure.
Newbridge ? remove the onstreet parking and close up any access to the A8 - move the existing access a few hundred yards east. Redesign the merge and make it one lane to three lanes for at least 700 yards. Give traffic time to merge and not from a standing start.
For the Gyle - sort out the conflicts - widen the western bridge. approach signs to the roundabout from the bypass split to three flows - A8 West local A8 east. stack the A8 east and provide yellow box junctions. keep that traffic separate from the roundabout mainline through an inner curve. Sort out the maybury while you are at it and get rid of the pinch points.
However the roads are terrible. No longer use the M8 in the mornings. A8 Gyle bypass and have to be at the Gyle no later than 6:30. any later you are in for a slow slog over the Baberton brow. The slip road up to the bypass from Hermistongait is a dangerous bit of road. the number that come up there and expect the right to merge is amazing. give way to the main line please.
The road layout with lane one being continuous up and onto the bypass is a good idea just pity some don't see it that way. That's sometimes what happens when you work with what you have got. Maybe you need to make some investments to the infrastructure.
Newbridge ? remove the onstreet parking and close up any access to the A8 - move the existing access a few hundred yards east. Redesign the merge and make it one lane to three lanes for at least 700 yards. Give traffic time to merge and not from a standing start.
For the Gyle - sort out the conflicts - widen the western bridge. approach signs to the roundabout from the bypass split to three flows - A8 West local A8 east. stack the A8 east and provide yellow box junctions. keep that traffic separate from the roundabout mainline through an inner curve. Sort out the maybury while you are at it and get rid of the pinch points.
Edited by ruggedscotty on Sunday 4th March 11:42
Edited by ruggedscotty on Sunday 4th March 11:54
A proper uninterrupted route from the M8 onto the bypass would solve a lot of issues. I just don't think there's any space to do it. With the traffic coming up from the Gyle and Edinburgh Park and traffic from the M8 it's practically gridlock from 3:30pm until after 6:30pm. The only issue is the bridges on the uphill. They'd need replaced or widened.
Given the predominant flow, it seems odd that there isn't a barriered off lane at Hermiston Gait/Gate from the A720 west to lane 1 of the M8 west. The only issue I can see is that all the other routes going to M8 west would need to be restricted to 1 lane, including from A720 east. On the M8 east to A720 east grade separation, the topology there looks really awkward, I can't see how you could fit in a flyover and an under pass would have an almost unclimable gradient to the A720, assuming you could even find a suitable merge point.
alangla said:
Given the predominant flow, it seems odd that there isn't a barriered off lane at Hermiston Gait/Gate from the A720 west to lane 1 of the M8 west. The only issue I can see is that all the other routes going to M8 west would need to be restricted to 1 lane, including from A720 east. On the M8 east to A720 east grade separation, the topology there looks really awkward, I can't see how you could fit in a flyover and an under pass would have an almost unclimable gradient to the A720, assuming you could even find a suitable merge point.
I've seen a few people use the A71 turnoff to effectively do this at busy times. Turn off the bypass (south) at the Heriot Watt turnoff, take the left lane, but at the roundabout, dont turn left for HW, go straight on to the M8 slip road and join the M8 a 1/4 mile ahead of the Hermiston Gait traffic.brrapp said:
I've seen a few people use the A71 turnoff to effectively do this at busy times. Turn off the bypass (south) at the Heriot Watt turnoff, take the left lane, but at the roundabout, dont turn left for HW, go straight on to the M8 slip road and join the M8 a 1/4 mile ahead of the Hermiston Gait traffic.
Done that many times when the Bye Pass looks busy at Hermiston Gate.Even with the traffic lights on that roundabout, it's worth it.
Edited by bigwheel on Tuesday 6th March 10:09
bigwheel said:
Done that many times when the Bye Pass looks busy at Hermiston Gate.
Even with the traffic lights on that roundabout, it's worth it.
If you time it nice - you’ll arrive at the Calder RAB just as the lights are about to change from green to amber, then the next lights on the roundabout change from red to green and one doesn’t even have to stop Even with the traffic lights on that roundabout, it's worth it.
Edited by bigwheel on Tuesday 6th March 10:09
alangla said:
Given the predominant flow, it seems odd that there isn't a barriered off lane at Hermiston Gait/Gate from the A720 west to lane 1 of the M8 west. The only issue I can see is that all the other routes going to M8 west would need to be restricted to 1 lane, including from A720 east. On the M8 east to A720 east grade separation, the topology there looks really awkward, I can't see how you could fit in a flyover and an under pass would have an almost unclimable gradient to the A720, assuming you could even find a suitable merge point.
Concreting the canal looks a better idea every day 
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