starter motor and hot starting problems.
Discussion
Hi All,
Just been reading about the "heat soak" problem with the starter motor on a chimp affecting the wire's resistance etc.
Question (well 2 please....)
1 Have the Wedges ever suffered from this?
2 Had a look at the starter solenoid on my wedge last night (peering through the drivers side with my trusty torch (be lost without it !!!) and noticed that there is a spade terminal with nothing on it
. I think (I may be wrong) that an earth connection should be on this ???
If so, could this account for my "hot starting problems" ?
When the engine is up to running temp it refuses to start for ages when the ignition is switched off.
Last night it didn't want to start (spinning over and over) and then there was sort of a clunk and it fired up.
Finally could this be related to the solenoid not engaging ?
Hope this all makes sense and thank you for any replies.
Regards
Ian
Just been reading about the "heat soak" problem with the starter motor on a chimp affecting the wire's resistance etc.
Question (well 2 please....)
1 Have the Wedges ever suffered from this?
2 Had a look at the starter solenoid on my wedge last night (peering through the drivers side with my trusty torch (be lost without it !!!) and noticed that there is a spade terminal with nothing on it
. I think (I may be wrong) that an earth connection should be on this ???If so, could this account for my "hot starting problems" ?
When the engine is up to running temp it refuses to start for ages when the ignition is switched off.
Last night it didn't want to start (spinning over and over) and then there was sort of a clunk and it fired up.
Finally could this be related to the solenoid not engaging ?
Hope this all makes sense and thank you for any replies.
Regards
Ian
Hi,
Assuming your ignition system is still the standard set-up there should be something on the spade connector, it is a feed to the coil which bypasses the ballast resistor to boost the coil voltage when the starter is cranking the engine. It might explain your hot starting problem, but I would have thought it would more likely impact cold starting.
I'm sure once you have jacked up the car you will find a wire hanging loose nearby.
Cheers
Danny
Assuming your ignition system is still the standard set-up there should be something on the spade connector, it is a feed to the coil which bypasses the ballast resistor to boost the coil voltage when the starter is cranking the engine. It might explain your hot starting problem, but I would have thought it would more likely impact cold starting.
I'm sure once you have jacked up the car you will find a wire hanging loose nearby.
Cheers
Danny
As you have a non standard distributor it is possible the wire has been removed intentionally. You'll need to check if the coil is intended for use with a ballast resistor or not.
Alternatively you could check the voltage at the coil, if it's around 8 volts you should have the wire connected.
Alternatively you could check the voltage at the coil, if it's around 8 volts you should have the wire connected.
If the solenoid doesn't get energised the the starter wont spin.
If the starter was spinning the solenoid is not your problem.
The starter solenoid is just an electro mechanical switch used to complete the high amp circuit from the battery to the starter motor.
If you didn't have a starter solenoid you would need a huge ignition switch to safely & reliably complete the high amp circuit.
On the second question, the fundamental rule is resistance increases with temperature.
A hot starter will have far greater resistance than a cold one, as will a hot starter lead & starter solenoid.
The symptom of high resistance in a starter motor or lead is it will turn slowly or not at all.
The symptom of high resistance in a starter solenoid or its associated wiring is the solenoid fails to engage therefore the starter fails to spin.
Both of these symptoms can also be caused by a poor earth as any circuit is a loop made up of two halves, live & earth.
The correct process to test the circuit and It's components is to test the voltage drop at the starter & starter solenoid when hot & cold.
That will tell you where the problem is and allow you to replace to right component first time.
A test meter is one of the best tools in your box, it will save you replacing perfectly serviceable components & lots of money in the long run.
It is also possible if there is a big enough current drain at the starter that the ignition system will be robed of spark, this can be enough to mean the car wont start even if the starter cranks.
Again, you need to test the voltage drop at the starter when it's hot & cranking.
If the starter was spinning the solenoid is not your problem.
The starter solenoid is just an electro mechanical switch used to complete the high amp circuit from the battery to the starter motor.
If you didn't have a starter solenoid you would need a huge ignition switch to safely & reliably complete the high amp circuit.
On the second question, the fundamental rule is resistance increases with temperature.
A hot starter will have far greater resistance than a cold one, as will a hot starter lead & starter solenoid.
The symptom of high resistance in a starter motor or lead is it will turn slowly or not at all.
The symptom of high resistance in a starter solenoid or its associated wiring is the solenoid fails to engage therefore the starter fails to spin.
Both of these symptoms can also be caused by a poor earth as any circuit is a loop made up of two halves, live & earth.
The correct process to test the circuit and It's components is to test the voltage drop at the starter & starter solenoid when hot & cold.
That will tell you where the problem is and allow you to replace to right component first time.
A test meter is one of the best tools in your box, it will save you replacing perfectly serviceable components & lots of money in the long run.
It is also possible if there is a big enough current drain at the starter that the ignition system will be robed of spark, this can be enough to mean the car wont start even if the starter cranks.
Again, you need to test the voltage drop at the starter when it's hot & cranking.
Edited by ChimpofDarkness on Tuesday 20th November 15:23
Yes the spare terminal is for a ballast bypass. However I've never seen a ballast resistor fitted to a V8 wedge.
As Danny says if your coil is running near 12v then it aint using one.
Also - on my old Rovers that did have a ballast - this bypass terminal quite often failed due to corrosion. You can clean it up inside the solenoid though (needs a soldering iron to remove the end cap).
When it turns over (hot or cold) is it slow or quick? A good starter should crank at about 120 rpm.
As Danny says if your coil is running near 12v then it aint using one.
Also - on my old Rovers that did have a ballast - this bypass terminal quite often failed due to corrosion. You can clean it up inside the solenoid though (needs a soldering iron to remove the end cap).
When it turns over (hot or cold) is it slow or quick? A good starter should crank at about 120 rpm.
Edited by adam quantrill on Tuesday 20th November 22:26
maston said:
noticed that there is a spade terminal with nothing on it
I had a couple of wires off..Well they were not put on properly..The car stalled at the dartford toll just as i paid to go through and they had to close off 5 lanes so that i could pull over to the side of the road, The battery was flat..Well embarrassing..Another was hanging off a couple of days later..Both times the battery light was lit on the dash...Is there any wire hanging near it?..If not then there probably wasnt one on it in the first place..Ziga I read this thread about the wire resistance and thought "What ?" as I think I am correct in saying that copper wire has to get REALLY hot before its resistance would rise enough to affect a starter motor. It's a long time since I did electrical theory, so OK perhaps that's wrong.
I would be tempted to say the feed wire to the starter is perhaps too small for a heavy current starter, or possibly there's a different problem which is related to temperature (dodgy connector ? - been there)
Most pre-engaged starters have TWO spade connectors, one is to activate the solenoid and spin the motor, the other is a 'starting' signal connected to 12v whilst the motor spins, typically used as a bypass for ballast resistor systems (2.8 has this) or on later EFi systems some have this as a CRANKING signal to the control box. Some don't use it at all, so it can be unconnected. Some wiring loom also take the main battery LIVE from the starter motor main supply (the bolt) as it is convenient, some looms take it from the battery itself.
I would be tempted to say the feed wire to the starter is perhaps too small for a heavy current starter, or possibly there's a different problem which is related to temperature (dodgy connector ? - been there)
Most pre-engaged starters have TWO spade connectors, one is to activate the solenoid and spin the motor, the other is a 'starting' signal connected to 12v whilst the motor spins, typically used as a bypass for ballast resistor systems (2.8 has this) or on later EFi systems some have this as a CRANKING signal to the control box. Some don't use it at all, so it can be unconnected. Some wiring loom also take the main battery LIVE from the starter motor main supply (the bolt) as it is convenient, some looms take it from the battery itself.
Edited by RCK974X on Tuesday 20th November 22:37
What many people overlook is the cleanliness of heavy-current connections. In the case of a starter motor this is the thick cable end terminal to the solenoid and the short one from the solenoid to the motor itself. Disconnect battery, take off the solenoid nuts, lift away the terminals, clean up with emery cloth, file, your mother's nail board, anything that gets you back to shiny copper. Also do one side of the nuts and any washers that come off. Use a wire brush on the threads. The more bare metal to bare metal, with no corrosion, tarnish or discolouration in the way, the better.
Another issue is that of the solenoid sticking: if it can't travel freely through its full stroke then (a) the pinion won't mesh witht the flywheel and (b) the big switch contacts that link those two stud terminals can't close, so although there may be a clatter of moving parts, no current will reach the motor.
Oh, I seem to recall a thread about this...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Another issue is that of the solenoid sticking: if it can't travel freely through its full stroke then (a) the pinion won't mesh witht the flywheel and (b) the big switch contacts that link those two stud terminals can't close, so although there may be a clatter of moving parts, no current will reach the motor.
Oh, I seem to recall a thread about this...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Wedg1e said:
What many people overlook is the cleanliness of heavy-current connections. <snip>
Amen to that brother - I would bet that's a MUCH more likely cause. I've also had a incorrectly crimped eye corrode INSIDE, which wasn't easy to see until it came apartMy wedge had soldered wires to an ALUMINIUM eyelet. Total waste of time expecting that to work properly.... Now my headlamps are bright instead of dim....
As usual thank you to everyone who replied, this is exactly the reason I love PH ?
However, I have now fixed it
Gave it a thorough test tonight, stopping at various petrol stations, switching off and then restarting, started every time
Now the culprit may have been the most obvious thing to check ???
Last night (I can only do my fettling under torch light when the wife and little'un are in bed) I cleaned both battery terminals and all the wires connecting to it including the starter cable with electrical cleaner and brush.
Didn't get a chance to test drive it though as it was 11.30pm and I think my neighbours would have shot me if I fired it up.
This evening I thought I'd check the starter cable at the starter end and noticed the bolt was lose ish. Didn't have a ring spanner on me so just wiggled the cable a bit (will obviously tighten tomorrow) and hey presto it now starts all the time. Well, it did tonight anyway
I'll keep you informed, many thanks again everyone
However, I have now fixed it
Gave it a thorough test tonight, stopping at various petrol stations, switching off and then restarting, started every time
Now the culprit may have been the most obvious thing to check ???
Last night (I can only do my fettling under torch light when the wife and little'un are in bed) I cleaned both battery terminals and all the wires connecting to it including the starter cable with electrical cleaner and brush.
Didn't get a chance to test drive it though as it was 11.30pm and I think my neighbours would have shot me if I fired it up.
This evening I thought I'd check the starter cable at the starter end and noticed the bolt was lose ish. Didn't have a ring spanner on me so just wiggled the cable a bit (will obviously tighten tomorrow) and hey presto it now starts all the time. Well, it did tonight anyway
I'll keep you informed, many thanks again everyone
Hi Mark,
Cheeky b*gger, , no, they have been going on for a while.
Remember when I replaced the coil a few weeks ago, thought tht might be it ?
The starting was much better Tuesday evening (must have just been a coincidence that the starter motor cable was lose as I thought that was the problem) but not last night ?
Cheeky b*gger,
, no, they have been going on for a while.Remember when I replaced the coil a few weeks ago, thought tht might be it ?
The starting was much better Tuesday evening (must have just been a coincidence that the starter motor cable was lose as I thought that was the problem) but not last night ?
Hi Ian..I cant see the issue of hot starting being related to the starter..I could be wrong but i would of thought it more likely to be fuel related..Control pressure could be too high or low after warm up...Vacuum leak..Did you replace the silicone vacuum hose with proper hose?..Fuel leak..Injectors..Vapour lock..It could be a result of fiddling with the pressure reg..If its too lean or rich then it could cause this problem..Does it idle ok when warm/hot or shake..as this could also be the fuel system leaking or a vacuum leak..In honesty mate i would "S T O P" fiddling and get it to either Dan taylor or Torque developements for a proper diagnosis and tune up!! (As discussed)..Your making my eye twitch and im sure chris has the same twitch..Remember..SAS mask and baseball bat...lol..Seriously though you could be making matters worst..Cheers...Ziga
r to start !!!Hi Ian..Dont forget that there is a vacuum pipe on the plenum as well..Did you change that?...It could be fuel related but dont mess about with the reg..Remember if it is dropping fuel pressure on the gauge then you have a leak in the system somewhere, It could even be at the injectors..Ziga
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