400SE Chassis problems
Discussion
Adrian@ said:
Recently on PH there was a thread where the re differential mount was cracking around the differential carrier bosses.
A@
When I had my diff out in about 2016 I found a crack around the weld of one of the chassis through-bosses (not the diff subframe itself), luckily it was reasonably accessible for the MIG torch although I could probably have TIGed it more neatly (and I'm no sort of welder). To my mind the bosses are too large for the diameter of tube they cross.A@
I've long thought those front suspension tops looked feeble. Wouldn't take long to produce some drawings from those original parts though.
Wedg1e said:
When I had my diff out in about 2016 I found a crack around the weld of one of the chassis through-bosses (not the diff subframe itself), luckily it was reasonably accessible for the MIG torch although I could probably have TIGed it more neatly (and I'm no sort of welder). To my mind the bosses are too large for the diameter of tube they cross.
I've long thought those front suspension tops looked feeble. Wouldn't take long to produce some drawings from those original parts though.
Duncan now has that 'job' (I do not doubt that he needs help if someone wants to volunteer..I have my collection of TVR's that take up my time) as although he has the factory jigs it is not going to EVER earn him a living!! (certainly whilst wedge prices are what they are). I've long thought those front suspension tops looked feeble. Wouldn't take long to produce some drawings from those original parts though.
I have a full set for my own wedge and the base item is strengthened/plated and several different brace bars added.
The OW trailing arm/wrong way around front suspension chassis was appalling, THEN the mods that redesign the front end fail and fail again, the OW design rear uprights and then the upgrades fail and fail again going to the 350, EVENTUALLY they revert to the earlier M series style lower rear wishbone design. THEN, for ease of diff build/changes (spawned from the SEAC racer differential changes), those rear bosses, are fitted into 1-1/2 16g that is simply not up for the job, (they ALL need a square tube slicing in half, along, then across the round tube and boxing in, incorporating the bosses).
I will rework my chassis outriggers/body mounts and those bushes with pictures during the year along with the ARB bracing that crack...posting on my FB page as I go along. A@
Wedge1. No, I haven't made any progress on this. No one seems to want to take the body off a 400SE it appears. They all say it is a lot of work and are too busy at the moment. I don't have the space to do it myself unfortunately.
My best bet at the moment is to address the weakest area I am aware of which is the upper spring and shock absorber mounting on the front suspension. I am hoping I can acquire two OEM mounts from Adrian@ once he has found someone who can make drawings from the originals so that more can be made in the future. Fingers crossed.
My best bet at the moment is to address the weakest area I am aware of which is the upper spring and shock absorber mounting on the front suspension. I am hoping I can acquire two OEM mounts from Adrian@ once he has found someone who can make drawings from the originals so that more can be made in the future. Fingers crossed.
Lesliehedley said:
Wedge1. No, I haven't made any progress on this. No one seems to want to take the body off a 400SE it appears. They all say it is a lot of work and are too busy at the moment. I don't have the space to do it myself unfortunately.
My best bet at the moment is to address the weakest area I am aware of which is the upper spring and shock absorber mounting on the front suspension. I am hoping I can acquire two OEM mounts from Adrian@ once he has found someone who can make drawings from the originals so that more can be made in the future. Fingers crossed.
That's a bit of a pain My best bet at the moment is to address the weakest area I am aware of which is the upper spring and shock absorber mounting on the front suspension. I am hoping I can acquire two OEM mounts from Adrian@ once he has found someone who can make drawings from the originals so that more can be made in the future. Fingers crossed.
Fairly sure I could produce usable CADs if I had the parts in front of me...
I can draw enough to create drawings ..this is to create drawings that then have the folds, bends and that brings the parts back up to size, where the current material is imperial and any new material is metric.
For free.
I have the parts and have gifted them away to the owner of the factory chassis jigs AND they are back with me. Simply because there is near zero need to have wedge chassis made.
There are too many versions of the chassis. THEN, there is no knowledge base of what the chassis evolved through to get to a 'usable' chassis (there are several points along the time-line where TVR did 'non recalls' and dealers were fixing cars with updates that still today cars are being restored to 'as they found the car originality' which are then dangerous).
The job is to open up the current parts, understand the material and have access/knowledge/skill set of using a press-plate to re-create usable items AND all for nothing.
I have asked people I know in wedge 'world' to help with no luck as yet.
I also have mates with these skills, (mates that have the businesses that I have full access to) that I have used over the last 40 years who I know and can do ALL of this, BUT, I have all the parts I need for my own use/chassis AND better things to use my 'mates rates' or 'exchange rates' on.
A@
For free.
I have the parts and have gifted them away to the owner of the factory chassis jigs AND they are back with me. Simply because there is near zero need to have wedge chassis made.
There are too many versions of the chassis. THEN, there is no knowledge base of what the chassis evolved through to get to a 'usable' chassis (there are several points along the time-line where TVR did 'non recalls' and dealers were fixing cars with updates that still today cars are being restored to 'as they found the car originality' which are then dangerous).
The job is to open up the current parts, understand the material and have access/knowledge/skill set of using a press-plate to re-create usable items AND all for nothing.
I have asked people I know in wedge 'world' to help with no luck as yet.
I also have mates with these skills, (mates that have the businesses that I have full access to) that I have used over the last 40 years who I know and can do ALL of this, BUT, I have all the parts I need for my own use/chassis AND better things to use my 'mates rates' or 'exchange rates' on.
A@
Edited by Adrian@ on Friday 5th April 10:29
Adrian, hope you didn't think I was taking a pop there, my comment to Leslie was regarding the trouble he was having with 'garages' not wanting to do the work, not with your efforts!
As for press-tooling the metalwork, you're quite right, nobody is going to produce stamping dies for so little reward, but from what I can see those pieces should be within the capabilities of an average sheet-metal worker with a folder - you could have the outlines water- or plasma-cut for little cost once the shapes are determined (as I'm sure you know).
You would imagine that the most 'correct' chassis are the later ones (post-86?) so replicating those would make more sense than reinstating what's on the early ones.
As for press-tooling the metalwork, you're quite right, nobody is going to produce stamping dies for so little reward, but from what I can see those pieces should be within the capabilities of an average sheet-metal worker with a folder - you could have the outlines water- or plasma-cut for little cost once the shapes are determined (as I'm sure you know).
You would imagine that the most 'correct' chassis are the later ones (post-86?) so replicating those would make more sense than reinstating what's on the early ones.
I posted on my FB group for help and may have a solution ...IMHO there is not a chassis that does not need either the front ARB or rear diff mount addressing (the diff mount runs through to the end of production, see the pictures above in this thread). I have a 86 280DH with a SEAC chassis and interior from the factory which needs the OE 25 x 35 outriggers (rather than38 x 38) replacing along with the chassis mounting plates where the shell is falling through the chassis! There are additional issues with black paint, thermoplastic then thermoset coatings that TVR used trying and failing in their own way to give the car better protection (bragging about it in their blurb), the wedge era cars suffer the most from the changes (it is not until the factory have in house control of the coating, that phosphate is used, BUT then the coating at pivot points need to be masked off to allow the car to be constructed leaving rust risers at those points). There are real issues with 'Tasmin's' with both front and rear suspension, then the rear suspension/drivetrain transition to 350 (all these cars suffer with chassis twist and packers on top of the rear springs being needed to force the front corner down which was as simple as bits of rubber that exuded out which eventually became plastic lego type ring shims). I could go on and on...A@
I sometimes wonder whether the change from tube to box for the sill rails was just a move to simplify fabrication - you have to wonder if there was any real stress analysis done to stimulate the change.
There was a US-spec but RHD C- or D-reg (so 1985/6) 280DHC near me about 20 years ago, very dark green, almost black, that had the square rails, glassed-in sill covers, SEAC dash etc.; it was in good condition then but... it was 20 years ago
The owner spun it off a roundabout and wrecked the O/S rear suspension; although the wheel, A-frame etc. was replaced god knows what the chassis might have suffered.
Not taking anything away from Messrs. Jones and Winterbottom but there were clearly compromises in creating something that could be created effectively by hand: when you see the lengths that Lotus went to post-Esprit/Excel they clearly knew that things had to move on.
If TVR had gone the Lotus route of hot-dip galvanizing they'd have spent more time drilling holes in tubes for venting, hours trying to untwist the resultant kinks and added tens of kilos to the chassis weight, so whatever they did had to be cold-spray or dip. There are marine paints (Jotamastic 80/90, for example) that would probably have outlasted anything they did try, but they often require gritblast to a certain texture to act as a key - more expense that wouldn't have helped the cars sell.
Galvanizing sheet metal chassis (Esprit, DeLorean) is much more practical of course. I had an '83 Esprit from 2004-6 and the chassis condition never worried me in the slightest, while my '80 Tasmin was rotting by the time I bought in in '95. It looked like paint rather than plastic-coating, whatever might have been claimed.
The '86 390SE was starting to disintegrate along the sills by a similar age but I got on top of that and it still has the original tubes, although 3 of the 4 plates have been replaced (and I bet if I poked hard enough the last one will be on its way out too).
I'm happy to assist with any CAD or even repairs if local to me - here's one I prepared earlier (about 20 years earlier!)
http://wedgeneering.co.uk/280i_fhc_chassis_repairs...
There was a US-spec but RHD C- or D-reg (so 1985/6) 280DHC near me about 20 years ago, very dark green, almost black, that had the square rails, glassed-in sill covers, SEAC dash etc.; it was in good condition then but... it was 20 years ago
The owner spun it off a roundabout and wrecked the O/S rear suspension; although the wheel, A-frame etc. was replaced god knows what the chassis might have suffered.
Not taking anything away from Messrs. Jones and Winterbottom but there were clearly compromises in creating something that could be created effectively by hand: when you see the lengths that Lotus went to post-Esprit/Excel they clearly knew that things had to move on.
If TVR had gone the Lotus route of hot-dip galvanizing they'd have spent more time drilling holes in tubes for venting, hours trying to untwist the resultant kinks and added tens of kilos to the chassis weight, so whatever they did had to be cold-spray or dip. There are marine paints (Jotamastic 80/90, for example) that would probably have outlasted anything they did try, but they often require gritblast to a certain texture to act as a key - more expense that wouldn't have helped the cars sell.
Galvanizing sheet metal chassis (Esprit, DeLorean) is much more practical of course. I had an '83 Esprit from 2004-6 and the chassis condition never worried me in the slightest, while my '80 Tasmin was rotting by the time I bought in in '95. It looked like paint rather than plastic-coating, whatever might have been claimed.
The '86 390SE was starting to disintegrate along the sills by a similar age but I got on top of that and it still has the original tubes, although 3 of the 4 plates have been replaced (and I bet if I poked hard enough the last one will be on its way out too).
I'm happy to assist with any CAD or even repairs if local to me - here's one I prepared earlier (about 20 years earlier!)
http://wedgeneering.co.uk/280i_fhc_chassis_repairs...
That is most likely my car, (there is only one green one in the set that were made). I spoke to (the late) Richard Thorpe before I purchased it (as back when Wedge Automotive was started I was asked to be involved and he was a good mate), about the work they did, (it drives like any other 400 chassis, I can feel the rear flexing at the rear diff bolts!) and I will find out soon enough, as I will lift the body and do the outriggers (along with any other bits I have to do). I at my fabricators on Monday to weld a new M series Jaguar differential frame together for my Taimar, so will chat through the limitations of press plating the parts...and then I will know more. A@
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