RE: Ford revives sporty Focus RS
Discussion
Mr Whippy said:
ScoobieWRX said:
Mr Whippy said:
ScoobieWRX said:
Also....if you kept up with an Elise in your TDCi i would have said the Elise driver wasn't up to much, as a reasonable driver with half an idea of how to drive an Elise would leave you for dead under any road circumstances.
ANY road circumstances?
I think perhaps the Elise is more about driving satisfaction than outright speed.
Road speed (well safe anyway) is all about line of sight (which isn't so great in a low Elise anyway) and brakes/stability, which are both still very good in the Focus.
I'd go as far as saying an Elise driver that found any advantage on your average road over a good Focus driver would probably be pushing it beyond safe levels!
Dave
That's hillarious
Care to elaborate?
I'd wager that a trained pursuit Trafpol officer driving an Elise S2 or a TDCi Ford Focus would go point to point in about the same time on pretty much any road.
Or does the Elise stop with more than ~ 0.9g decelleration with superior stability than an ABS ESP equipped Focus? Does it offer a better line of sight through bends? Is it's top speed that impressive next to the Focus?
Throw in some rain or fog and the tables probably turn!
Fair enough if you eke out more performance from your Scooby by driving in excess of what the prevailing conditions allow next to a more considerate road user. Wouldn't be the first time for a Scooby driver
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 8th March 13:35
Personally I think you'd lose your wager
ASBO said:
Personally I think you'd lose your wager
Ditto.
I had a run in with an Elise 111S (better than standard but pre-Toyota) in my old ST170 (better than TDCi but pre Volvo engine) on roads I know very, very well. It wasn't long before I couldn't see which way he'd gone.
There's a chance he was a pro-racer but I'd wager not.
Roadcraft limit point driving would suggest otherwise.
Elise S1 (base model) is rapid off the line, but not so good 60-100mph, and poor over 100mph. Considering most road driving is 60-100mph I'd say a brisk modern diesel with a good driving position and modern brakes would be a hard car to shake off!
My Gti6 vs Hdi for example, on alot of roads I just spent more time off the throttle in my Gti6 where the Hdi has it mashed. Peak safe speed is still the same, corner speed is about the same, braking is about the same.
The only difference in this example of ~ 100bhp/tonne vs 140bhp/tonne is the acceleration phase, and that has alot to do with when it is safe to use all that acceleration, grip conditions out of bends etc.
So only really in a straight line in the dry does the full 140bhp become available, and that is with good gear selection and focus, wheras the power delivery of the Hdi is alot more level for brisk progress.
So when your not trying the Hdi is quicker than the revvy Gti6, and only when really focussed and when in the right circumstances will the Gti6 pull away, and not by much in this example.
Of course, if your willing to drive like a complete tw4t, then the Gti6 will always win, but then driving like a complete tw4t on the roads isn't really a consideration here. Stupidity wins.
Dave
Elise S1 (base model) is rapid off the line, but not so good 60-100mph, and poor over 100mph. Considering most road driving is 60-100mph I'd say a brisk modern diesel with a good driving position and modern brakes would be a hard car to shake off!
My Gti6 vs Hdi for example, on alot of roads I just spent more time off the throttle in my Gti6 where the Hdi has it mashed. Peak safe speed is still the same, corner speed is about the same, braking is about the same.
The only difference in this example of ~ 100bhp/tonne vs 140bhp/tonne is the acceleration phase, and that has alot to do with when it is safe to use all that acceleration, grip conditions out of bends etc.
So only really in a straight line in the dry does the full 140bhp become available, and that is with good gear selection and focus, wheras the power delivery of the Hdi is alot more level for brisk progress.
So when your not trying the Hdi is quicker than the revvy Gti6, and only when really focussed and when in the right circumstances will the Gti6 pull away, and not by much in this example.
Of course, if your willing to drive like a complete tw4t, then the Gti6 will always win, but then driving like a complete tw4t on the roads isn't really a consideration here. Stupidity wins.
Dave
thekirbyfake said:
ASBO said:
Personally I think you'd lose your wager
Ditto.
I had a run in with an Elise 111S (better than standard but pre-Toyota) in my old ST170 (better than TDCi but pre Volvo engine) on roads I know very, very well. It wasn't long before I couldn't see which way he'd gone.
There's a chance he was a pro-racer but I'd wager not.
Maybe you were holding back from your cars real performance potential, maybe they Elise driver was taking risks?
We don't know, we can't say.
Only real effective test is point to point on a variety of roads by a trained professional driving as a police driver would...
In my youth I've done stupid stuff to keep up with slower cars, the reality is that they were driving like loons and it comes down to stupidity reigns supereme, not the car!
Dave
For what it's worth I've a Mk1 TDCi and tried chasing an S1 a few weeks back in the damp on a B-road.
Corners - limiting factor was visibility, quite honestly. Both could corner fast enough to be dangerous, even in the damp.
Straights - not sure what engine, but the Elise was faster, no argument.
Brakes - not a lot in it, surprisingly. But I suspect he wasn't using the whole of the pedal.
Could a well-driven Focus keep up with (say) a boggo S1?
Focus RS - yes and then some
Focus ST - yes and then some (probably)
Focus ST170 - I'd say just about - my old 'teg was quite happy behind an S1 111S a few years back on a dry A-/B-road, corners or straights - poor chap must have been quite frustrated to see me sitting there for a few miles.
I know I had more in reserve, wasn't sure how much he was pushing it. That said, he only got away by pulling a ton-plus once it opened up, as I wasn't prepared to risk my license.
Focus TDCi - no. Not unless road conditions permitted it.
But to be perfectly honest the Elise has never been a point-to-point machine, has it?!?
Corners - limiting factor was visibility, quite honestly. Both could corner fast enough to be dangerous, even in the damp.
Straights - not sure what engine, but the Elise was faster, no argument.
Brakes - not a lot in it, surprisingly. But I suspect he wasn't using the whole of the pedal.
Could a well-driven Focus keep up with (say) a boggo S1?
Focus RS - yes and then some
Focus ST - yes and then some (probably)
Focus ST170 - I'd say just about - my old 'teg was quite happy behind an S1 111S a few years back on a dry A-/B-road, corners or straights - poor chap must have been quite frustrated to see me sitting there for a few miles.
I know I had more in reserve, wasn't sure how much he was pushing it. That said, he only got away by pulling a ton-plus once it opened up, as I wasn't prepared to risk my license. Focus TDCi - no. Not unless road conditions permitted it.
But to be perfectly honest the Elise has never been a point-to-point machine, has it?!?
Would anybody like to know how to enjoy themselves while driving on the limit without loosing your licence.
As a professional performance driver plus I do rallying and track racing the Lotus have got the upper hand as it is totally honed for track drving.
Plus it's power to weight ratio, the car's drive differently as the Ford is Front wheel drive and the Lotus is Rear wheel drive.
Why do we configure cars which are normally front wheel drive but when we put more power we need four wheel drive?
Four wheel drive is far cheaper and easier to do then converting the car to rear wheel drive.
Plus if you are platform sharing and already building 4 wheel drive you can keep costs down further.
As a professional performance driver plus I do rallying and track racing the Lotus have got the upper hand as it is totally honed for track drving.
Plus it's power to weight ratio, the car's drive differently as the Ford is Front wheel drive and the Lotus is Rear wheel drive.
Why do we configure cars which are normally front wheel drive but when we put more power we need four wheel drive?
Four wheel drive is far cheaper and easier to do then converting the car to rear wheel drive.
Plus if you are platform sharing and already building 4 wheel drive you can keep costs down further.
ScoobieWRX said:
Sorry Mr Whippy but i think you're having a laugh. As your name suggests...stick to driving the icecream van....Probably qucker than a Focus TDCi, and if you crash....mine's a double 99 flake please
Another well considered response.
Do I take you clear avoidance of the subject matter as a sign of defeat?
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
ScoobieWRX said:
Sorry Mr Whippy but i think you're having a laugh. As your name suggests...stick to driving the icecream van....Probably qucker than a Focus TDCi, and if you crash....mine's a double 99 flake please
Another well considered response.
Do I take you clear avoidance of the subject matter as a sign of defeat?
Dave
Far from it....I just can't bare to sensibly respond to the nonsense you're coming out with. You're in cloud cuckoo land and it's all very funny really. No offence but.....get real!!
I've given real world examples.
I've kept pace with an Impreza WRX in my XR4x4 Sierra, I've also lost out to a 1.4 Polo in my 306 Gti.
In either case the variables were too wide to call into question any cars abilities. It is down to the driver how fast they choose to drive that determines what pulls ahead.
In the case of 900cc Fiesta vs 5.7 V8 Ultima, the same applies. The Ultima driver may be on unfamiliar roads, or familiar ones, but with a great deal of consideration for risk or their appreciation of their vehicle irrespective of speed, where the Fiesta driver may be tweetering the car on it's limits of adhesion, using all the power in every gear and making excessive progress for the conditions and car, leaving the Ultima for dead.
How do you differentiate?
I say bung the same professionally trained **road** driver (probably TrafPol) into said cars, maybe several drivers, and several roads, but all used for comparitive assesment, and ask each to drive point to point and time them. No emphasis on "winning" or bruised ego's or the excuse they were not trying, just emphasis on safety first, and the time/progress last...
I'm quite sure in this case the S1 Elise with it similar power to a Focus TDCi wouldn't make it's benefits seen enough of the time to see any significant advantage. Infact over varying weather and road conditions it's probably at a disadvantage alot of the time, enough to see the possible power to weight advantage dissapear over a range of tests.
Speed point to point doesn't come with raw power and aggressive braking/cornering but good observation.
Again, all to do with roads. Throw them on a track and the difference is black and white, as is the driving experience, but on the roads it is completely different.
Infact I'd go as far as saying the more aggressive your car is, so is the potential for ignorance to good forward planning, because your cars power makes up for the lack of forward planning in making progress effectively. A driver with limited power and grip may be much more inclined to make sure if they add speed they can keep it and if they remove it they don't remove too much for the approaching conditions.
Until you put competent and safe drivers in these cars your testing, any kind of comparison with your real world experiences is just a waste of time.
Dave
I've kept pace with an Impreza WRX in my XR4x4 Sierra, I've also lost out to a 1.4 Polo in my 306 Gti.
In either case the variables were too wide to call into question any cars abilities. It is down to the driver how fast they choose to drive that determines what pulls ahead.
In the case of 900cc Fiesta vs 5.7 V8 Ultima, the same applies. The Ultima driver may be on unfamiliar roads, or familiar ones, but with a great deal of consideration for risk or their appreciation of their vehicle irrespective of speed, where the Fiesta driver may be tweetering the car on it's limits of adhesion, using all the power in every gear and making excessive progress for the conditions and car, leaving the Ultima for dead.
How do you differentiate?
I say bung the same professionally trained **road** driver (probably TrafPol) into said cars, maybe several drivers, and several roads, but all used for comparitive assesment, and ask each to drive point to point and time them. No emphasis on "winning" or bruised ego's or the excuse they were not trying, just emphasis on safety first, and the time/progress last...
I'm quite sure in this case the S1 Elise with it similar power to a Focus TDCi wouldn't make it's benefits seen enough of the time to see any significant advantage. Infact over varying weather and road conditions it's probably at a disadvantage alot of the time, enough to see the possible power to weight advantage dissapear over a range of tests.
Speed point to point doesn't come with raw power and aggressive braking/cornering but good observation.
Again, all to do with roads. Throw them on a track and the difference is black and white, as is the driving experience, but on the roads it is completely different.
Infact I'd go as far as saying the more aggressive your car is, so is the potential for ignorance to good forward planning, because your cars power makes up for the lack of forward planning in making progress effectively. A driver with limited power and grip may be much more inclined to make sure if they add speed they can keep it and if they remove it they don't remove too much for the approaching conditions.
Until you put competent and safe drivers in these cars your testing, any kind of comparison with your real world experiences is just a waste of time.
Dave
Dead quick example.
Good experienced Trafpol driver, never driven road before.
Elise S1 118bhp
Focus TDCi 115bhp
Buttertubs pass
Day 1, clear dry
Day 2, clear damp
Day 3, rain wet
Day 4, fog wet
I think they sum up the average UK weather nicely, especially in that part of the world.
I really don't think in any situation the Elise will be significantly quicker here, let alone overall average...
Dave
Good experienced Trafpol driver, never driven road before.
Elise S1 118bhp
Focus TDCi 115bhp
Buttertubs pass
Day 1, clear dry
Day 2, clear damp
Day 3, rain wet
Day 4, fog wet
I think they sum up the average UK weather nicely, especially in that part of the world.
I really don't think in any situation the Elise will be significantly quicker here, let alone overall average...
Dave
Dave,
I think if you were to hop back into a GTi6 you'd realise it is streets ahead of the Hdi and I cant understand why you would reasonalby think otherwise.
Put simply, a cars' power to weight ratio and lateral grip will be the main deciding factor in a cross-country blat. Therefore the elise wins. Now let that be the end of it and enough with the essays! Are you still boring the boys on 306gti6.com with your Hdi v gti6 comparasons too?
I think if you were to hop back into a GTi6 you'd realise it is streets ahead of the Hdi and I cant understand why you would reasonalby think otherwise.
Put simply, a cars' power to weight ratio and lateral grip will be the main deciding factor in a cross-country blat. Therefore the elise wins. Now let that be the end of it and enough with the essays! Are you still boring the boys on 306gti6.com with your Hdi v gti6 comparasons too?
Lateral grip, cross country?
How often do you get to go upto and over even 0.8g lateral at more than about 50mph without being a loon?
Fair enough on good roads with good visibility, but my arguement was Buttertubs, to commit at speeds through blind bends FAST enough to hit g's that even a Robin Reliant could probably hit safely would be erring on suicidal...!
Power to weight helps in a line, but that doesn't mean an Ultima GTR would out-pace a well drive 111R on the same road, power to weight is only useful again when it can be FULLY used, and on the road it is a case of diminishing returns on useability of that performance. Double the power to weight you may only get to use that potential for 1% of the time on Buttertubs for example.
As per Gti6 vs Hdi. Yes I know the difference, the Gti6 is tons nicer to drive fast, more involving, more noise etc, but it has no better brakes, the weight dulls turn-in and ultimately it's not THAT much faster in a safe point to point exercise... (i've timed it on a well known road), chances are on an unknown road holding back and taking less risks with your local knowledge would lead to an even smaller gap!
Sorry, just my point of view on this. I agree a faster car has the advantage, but we NEVER see a comparitive test... the best I can think of that I could use is the Stig over the tops on the IOM in the M6, 911 S and V8 Vantage... now assume there might be other cars on that same road and adopt a safe driving style and I bet that the cars would be within 2s of each other over the 1 minute run!
Dave
How often do you get to go upto and over even 0.8g lateral at more than about 50mph without being a loon?
Fair enough on good roads with good visibility, but my arguement was Buttertubs, to commit at speeds through blind bends FAST enough to hit g's that even a Robin Reliant could probably hit safely would be erring on suicidal...!
Power to weight helps in a line, but that doesn't mean an Ultima GTR would out-pace a well drive 111R on the same road, power to weight is only useful again when it can be FULLY used, and on the road it is a case of diminishing returns on useability of that performance. Double the power to weight you may only get to use that potential for 1% of the time on Buttertubs for example.
As per Gti6 vs Hdi. Yes I know the difference, the Gti6 is tons nicer to drive fast, more involving, more noise etc, but it has no better brakes, the weight dulls turn-in and ultimately it's not THAT much faster in a safe point to point exercise... (i've timed it on a well known road), chances are on an unknown road holding back and taking less risks with your local knowledge would lead to an even smaller gap!
Sorry, just my point of view on this. I agree a faster car has the advantage, but we NEVER see a comparitive test... the best I can think of that I could use is the Stig over the tops on the IOM in the M6, 911 S and V8 Vantage... now assume there might be other cars on that same road and adopt a safe driving style and I bet that the cars would be within 2s of each other over the 1 minute run!
Dave
havoc said:
You guys are getting too hung up on point-to-point pace.
What really matters is the fun you're having behind the wheel! Go and re-read the evo articles on that Westy-11...
What really matters is the fun you're having behind the wheel! Go and re-read the evo articles on that Westy-11...
My original point
Me said:
I think perhaps the Elise is more about driving satisfaction than outright speed.
Dave
scoobiewrx said:
Are you lot still going on about the TDCi being faster than anything else on the road...
Next you'll be saying a Vauxhall Viva 1256 will outpace a Veyron on any B roads. You might be right if you woke up in your cornflakes.
FFS....GET A LIFE!!
Next you'll be saying a Vauxhall Viva 1256 will outpace a Veyron on any B roads. You might be right if you woke up in your cornflakes.
FFS....GET A LIFE!!
And yet another well considered response with examples and ideas why you hold that view.
You clearly didn't even read my posts because you have suggested I am making a different arguement to the one I am.
Pointless trying to have a rather in-depth conversation that requires concentration and intelligence with someone who won't display any!
Dave
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