RE: Ford revives sporty Focus RS
Discussion
Mr Whippy said:
As per Gti6 vs Hdi. Yes I know the difference, the Gti6 is tons nicer to drive fast, more involving, more noise etc, but it has no better brakes, the weight dulls turn-in and ultimately it's not THAT much faster in a safe point to point exercise... (i've timed it on a well known road), chances are on an unknown road holding back and taking less risks with your local knowledge would lead to an even smaller gap!
Mr Whippy said:
Sorry, just my point of view on this. I agree a faster car has the advantage, but we NEVER see a comparitive test... the best I can think of that I could use is the Stig over the tops on the IOM in the M6, 911 S and V8 Vantage... now assume there might be other cars on that same road and adopt a safe driving style and I bet that the cars would be within 2s of each other over the 1 minute run!
Dave
*prods Dave*
Wakey wakey Dave its time for your injections again
As you said it is YOUR point of view
SO STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT EVERYONE ELSES' !!! Edited by ASBO on Wednesday 14th March 15:14
ASBO said:
Mr Whippy said:
As per Gti6 vs Hdi. Yes I know the difference, the Gti6 is tons nicer to drive fast, more involving, more noise etc, but it has no better brakes, the weight dulls turn-in and ultimately it's not THAT much faster in a safe point to point exercise... (i've timed it on a well known road), chances are on an unknown road holding back and taking less risks with your local knowledge would lead to an even smaller gap!
Mr Whippy said:
Sorry, just my point of view on this. I agree a faster car has the advantage, but we NEVER see a comparitive test... the best I can think of that I could use is the Stig over the tops on the IOM in the M6, 911 S and V8 Vantage... now assume there might be other cars on that same road and adopt a safe driving style and I bet that the cars would be within 2s of each other over the 1 minute run!
Dave
Dave
*prods Dave*
Wakey wakey Dave its time for your injections again
As you said it is YOUR point of view
SO STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT EVERYONE ELSES' !!! No one is making a considered arguement back.
I can't help it if people have pre-conceptions that they can't argue the point FOR...
At least I am trying to substantiate my POINT OF VIEW, rather than resorting to personal attacks and ignorant responses
If you don't want to take on my point of view, then simply ignore it. I'm not TRYING TO MAKE IT EVERYONE ELSES!!!! as you put it... I'm just arguing my point... if you don't want to join in discussing it, then just don't...
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
If you don't want to take on my point of view, then simply ignore it.
It's my personal view, from personal experience, that an ST170 can't keep up with an Elise.
It's my personal view, from personal experience, than a TDCi will not see which way an ST170 went.
This is why your argument is not holding water with me I'm afraid.
thekirbyfake said:
Mr Whippy said:
If you don't want to take on my point of view, then simply ignore it.
It's my personal view, from personal experience, that an ST170 can't keep up with an Elise.
It's my personal view, from personal experience, than a TDCi will not see which way an ST170 went.
This is why your argument is not holding water with me I'm afraid.
But with all due respect, my point is that we CAN'T make assumptions and require empirically collected data.
Going back a little bit:
Mr Whippy said:
ScoobieWRX said:
Also....if you kept up with an Elise in your TDCi i would have said the Elise driver wasn't up to much, as a reasonable driver with half an idea of how to drive an Elise would leave you for dead under any road circumstances.
ANY road circumstances?
I think perhaps the Elise is more about driving satisfaction than outright speed.
Road speed (well safe anyway) is all about line of sight (which isn't so great in a low Elise anyway) and brakes/stability, which are both still very good in the Focus.
I'd go as far as saying an Elise driver that found any advantage on your average road over a good Focus driver would probably be pushing it beyond safe levels!
Dave
I'm not saying outright that one is faster or slower, my work colleague has an ST170 that on a certain by-pass will accelerate to ~ 90mph maybe 5s faster than me, but then the speed differential doesn't grow because of the sensibilities of road driving. My low powered car has adequate power to match his speed, so I only loose out maybe 10 car lengths over the acceleration phase from 40mph off the roundabout.
Onto the back roads and no gap opens up, it's too bendy, and line of sight is key. Any real advantage that is realised is purely down to excessive speed and risk taking.
So my point is that Scoobies "a reasonable driver with half an idea of how to drive an Elise would leave you (TDCi Focus) for dead under any road circumstances" suggestion is incorrect. ANY road circumstances is what I objected to and still do.
But of course, we question my friends driving in his ST170, is he safer than me, or not willing to take risks allowing me to catch up.
And THAT is the crux. We can only compare if we use the same driver, and a highly trained one who will NOT take excessive risks, because if we allow them to take excessive risks we are basically saying if you are willing to DIE or KILL others on the road then X car is the fastest, which is just a stupid point to make.
My point is that on a good deal of UK roads with traffic and weather variations, the postulation made by Scoobie "a reasonable driver with half an idea of how to drive an Elise would leave you (TDCi Focus) for dead under any road circumstances" is just not true!
Thats my arguement, it's not about "keeping up" per se, it's about realising that keeping up is a function of more than just the car, it's about the driver and their view of the risks of pushing their car to make that point on the road!
A very very simple test is Range Rover Sport diesel vs Ultima Can Am at 3:30am over the Fylingdales in heavy rain and ground fog.
If anyone has any doubt about the Ultima's point to point in these conditions, then my initial arguement against Scoobies generalisation is right.
Using the extreme case proves there is a disparity and it isn't simply down to power to weight on the road by a LONG way!
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 14th March 17:20
damian s said:
scoobiewrx said:
Are you lot still going on about the TDCi being faster than anything else on the road
grow up you bellend
I'd rather be a useful well oiled bellend that gets to see some honest to goodness real life action action than some numpty living in wet dreamland over the belief that his TDCi is quicker that an Elise whatever the road or weather conditions.
FFS....GET REAL AND GET A LIFE!!!
:IGNORE BUTTON:
As for Mr Whippy......ASBO is right.....get your injections sorted it will all be lovely in the morning.
Nobody shares your point of view because we live in the real world. You're not getting intelligent argument back because you're not saying anything intelligent in the first place for anyone to reply to so FFS....GIVE IT A REST!!!
:IGNORE BUTTON:
scoobiewrx said:
Nobody shares your point of view because we live in the real world.
You're not getting intelligent argument back because you're not saying anything intelligent in the first place
You're not getting intelligent argument back because you're not saying anything intelligent in the first place
I'm not asking for people to share my point of view, I'm just discussing my point of view. Sorry to be such a burden.
I also appear to be having much more luck with this topic elsewhere, so thanks for at least sticking with me for this long.
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
scoobiewrx said:
Nobody shares your point of view because we live in the real world.
You're not getting intelligent argument back because you're not saying anything intelligent in the first place
You're not getting intelligent argument back because you're not saying anything intelligent in the first place
I'm not asking for people to share my point of view, I'm just discussing my point of view. Sorry to be such a burden.
I also appear to be having much more luck with this topic elsewhere, so thanks for at least sticking with me for this long.
Dave
I happen to have a lot of sympathy for Dave's point, and I think a few people on here are missing it completely, and are then throwing insults around.
I KNOW my TDCi Focus isn't as quick, objectively, as an Elise. I also know that in the really wet I'll have more fun and press on more in my Focus than in my S2000. And if it's snowy/icy I wouldn't take the S2000 out. Substitute 'Elise' for 'S2000' and you've exactly Dave's argument.
My points are often hard to grasp, become convoluted as the discussion progresses, and I often end up making a different arguement by the end 
Thanks for being a bit more open to the point I'm trying to make Havoc
I've got the day off tomorrow, and the better half is taking her car to Ford for the MOT. They have a Focus ST3 in and I'm tempted to go for a spin.
I was thinking about where the car would be faster... everywhere obviously. But why?
I think because it has more power, it'll go faster more easily, probably reaching my comfortable limits for road driving at what feels like 5/10ths, wheras in my diesel I have to really use all the revs and the right gears to reach my safe speeds, making it feel slow and hard work.
But I feel that if I ragged my 306 everywhere and drove at what I felt were safe speeds I probably wouldn't be going much quicker in the ST, I'd just be doing it without working the car as hard, perhaps making it feel faster, like there is more in reserve even though you'll not use it at that instant because your already using enough!?
All said and done this is why I want a VX220 or similar, not much quicker but a whole world more interesting to drive at the same speeds as I already go.
Dave
Thanks for being a bit more open to the point I'm trying to make Havoc
I've got the day off tomorrow, and the better half is taking her car to Ford for the MOT. They have a Focus ST3 in and I'm tempted to go for a spin.
I was thinking about where the car would be faster... everywhere obviously. But why?
I think because it has more power, it'll go faster more easily, probably reaching my comfortable limits for road driving at what feels like 5/10ths, wheras in my diesel I have to really use all the revs and the right gears to reach my safe speeds, making it feel slow and hard work.
But I feel that if I ragged my 306 everywhere and drove at what I felt were safe speeds I probably wouldn't be going much quicker in the ST, I'd just be doing it without working the car as hard, perhaps making it feel faster, like there is more in reserve even though you'll not use it at that instant because your already using enough!?
All said and done this is why I want a VX220 or similar, not much quicker but a whole world more interesting to drive at the same speeds as I already go.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 14th March 23:21
Ok Dave, lets take a step back down to earth.
You are clearly a man of intelligence but I fear that your argument has become lost in the quagmire of testosterone that has by all accounts raged out of control.
You make your point about the rangey sport and the ultima on said foggy [presumably twisty] road, and granted both are likely to take the same amount of time to get from points A to B owing to the conditions.
However, that is the case in ANY situation where progress is hindered. Alas this is where I feel you have fallen. You make many references about line of sight and corner speeds verging on the dangerous for the public road, but you seem to fail to regognise that corner speed is NOT a constant. rather it is a matter of road conditions and ability which determines corner speed which in turn are specific to each individual car, not cars per se.
Ergo, to use your example about the traffic cop, given the same road conditions, he will be faster in the elise owing to its ability to take corners faster and accelerate harder down the straights than the focus. Think about it, A Focus on 195 section tyres (I know the elise has tyres of equal width but it is consequently a third of the weight) will loose grip at a lower speed where by an entry speed of 60mph would be deemed dangerous by your traffic cop but perfectly acceptable in the elise. Thus to avoid the danger of driving both cars at maximum attack your Elise will still be quicker at (say for arguments sake) 8 tenths than the focus. Thus to keep up with the Elise, the copper in the focus would have to drive at or above ten tenths to keep up - wchich on a public road would be dangerous!
Naturally of course, should the elise approach a Car it will be slowed down ergo allowing the focus to catch up, but then the elise will dispatch it quicker and thus the circle starts again.
I just cannot see where your argument holds water and that is why you have provoked the reaction you have - indeed in a not too disimilar way to that which you did on 306gti6.com. Subsequently, by holding a 'discussion' you will invite responses to the nature by which they have been received by others.
Whilst I am not one to point the finger, if by general consensous, you receive more negative comments than you do positive, it is normally an upheld belive that you are incorrect....
I would very much like to here your comments post ST3 as to the sustainability of your argument in favour of the slower, less powerful car. Having driven the ST I know that on any given road even my old Gti6 would not see which way it went.
As for my Focus well, thats a different story
You are clearly a man of intelligence but I fear that your argument has become lost in the quagmire of testosterone that has by all accounts raged out of control.
You make your point about the rangey sport and the ultima on said foggy [presumably twisty] road, and granted both are likely to take the same amount of time to get from points A to B owing to the conditions.
However, that is the case in ANY situation where progress is hindered. Alas this is where I feel you have fallen. You make many references about line of sight and corner speeds verging on the dangerous for the public road, but you seem to fail to regognise that corner speed is NOT a constant. rather it is a matter of road conditions and ability which determines corner speed which in turn are specific to each individual car, not cars per se.
Ergo, to use your example about the traffic cop, given the same road conditions, he will be faster in the elise owing to its ability to take corners faster and accelerate harder down the straights than the focus. Think about it, A Focus on 195 section tyres (I know the elise has tyres of equal width but it is consequently a third of the weight) will loose grip at a lower speed where by an entry speed of 60mph would be deemed dangerous by your traffic cop but perfectly acceptable in the elise. Thus to avoid the danger of driving both cars at maximum attack your Elise will still be quicker at (say for arguments sake) 8 tenths than the focus. Thus to keep up with the Elise, the copper in the focus would have to drive at or above ten tenths to keep up - wchich on a public road would be dangerous!
Naturally of course, should the elise approach a Car it will be slowed down ergo allowing the focus to catch up, but then the elise will dispatch it quicker and thus the circle starts again.
I just cannot see where your argument holds water and that is why you have provoked the reaction you have - indeed in a not too disimilar way to that which you did on 306gti6.com. Subsequently, by holding a 'discussion' you will invite responses to the nature by which they have been received by others.
Whilst I am not one to point the finger, if by general consensous, you receive more negative comments than you do positive, it is normally an upheld belive that you are incorrect....
I would very much like to here your comments post ST3 as to the sustainability of your argument in favour of the slower, less powerful car. Having driven the ST I know that on any given road even my old Gti6 would not see which way it went.
As for my Focus well, thats a different story
ASBO said:
Having driven the ST I know that on any given road even my old Gti6 would not see which way it went.
Currently we're talking about pace and pace only but I can almost guarantee that the GTI6 driver would be having more sweaty palmed fun trying to keep up with the ST than the driver of the ST would.
Back O/T and wrt RS vs ST it's an interesting one. On paper stats for the two cars would put them fairly level whereas a proper thrap around some choice B-roads would show how useless paper is.
The ST struggles with rapid directional changes vs an ST170, let alone an RS. It also scrambles to get it's power down coming out of tight bends, the RS's raison d'être.
I'm certainly not saying the ST isn't fun or capable, far from it. I've had mine for a little over a year now and at first I thought it was just a point-squirt-grip machine but over the past 12 months I've discovered hidden depths. It's just not as rewarding as my old ST170 to extract every last bit of performance.
ASBO said:
Ergo, to use your example about the traffic cop, given the same road conditions, he will be faster in the elise owing to its ability to take corners faster and accelerate harder down the straights than the focus. Think about it, A Focus on 195 section tyres (I know the elise has tyres of equal width but it is consequently a third of the weight) will loose grip at a lower speed where by an entry speed of 60mph would be deemed dangerous by your traffic cop but perfectly acceptable in the elise. Thus to avoid the danger of driving both cars at maximum attack your Elise will still be quicker at (say for arguments sake) 8 tenths than the focus. Thus to keep up with the Elise, the copper in the focus would have to drive at or above ten tenths to keep up - which on a public road would be dangerous!
A few flaws there:-
1) You're assuming that the limiting speed for a corner is grip-dependent.
It isn't, or shouldn't be, on a public road - as I said above, my Mk1 TDCi (Sport, on 215/40/17s) can corner on a B-road more than fast enough for me not to be able to stop in the distance I can see to be clear. In that regard on a twisty road I would suggest an Elise will have pretty much no advantage over any Focus, if the driver is driving to visibility not to the car's limits (which on a public road would be bloody stupid!).
2) You seem to be completely ignoring weather conditions. As I said above (again), I would travel a particular road, in the wet, faster in my Focus than in my S2000 (which has the advantages over an Elsie of ABS, broader tyres, and a better weight-distribution (50:50) for stability, particularly under braking.
3) [PH pedant mode] Even a Mk1 Elise weighs in getting on for 800kg kerb-weight. A Mk1 Focus TDCi is more like 1,200kg. So rather than being 1/3 of the weight, it's actually 2/3! [/PH pedant mode]
In short, ASBO, you and Scooby seem to be ignoring what Dave and the rest of us are trying to say, which is that unless you're a dangerous nutter who completely disregards road conditions, there are likely to be numerous circumstances where owning (for example) an Elise proffers NO point-to-point pace benefits over a more mundane car (for example a Focus TDCi). That it'll be more fun in most conditions isn't argued, but that's always been OUR point, not yours.
As for the ST3...passengered in a mates' one when they first came out, and IMHO it's got FAR too much grip to be any fun on a typical UK B-road - your nerve would give out before the car's capabilities, and to be ANYWHERE near the limit you'll be doing silly speeds. So I'd take that GTi-6 for the extra fun/involvement! Oh...and then pocket the remaining £15k for a track-car, for repairs to both, and probably a holiday too...
damian s said:
scoobiewrx said:
Are you lot still going on about the TDCi being faster than anything else on the road
You're a bullshitter as well as an ignorant bellend.
I'm no bullshitter and always tell the truth no matter how much it upsets anyone... so tough shi1te on that one. I may be a bellend so i go back to my previous post. But being called ignorant really gets my goat so i'll tell you what damien.... If i ever have the misfortune to meet you i'll show you just how f***king ignorant i'm not
Here is the offending post:-
:J: Get the scooby, you won't regret it. Once you've driven it you won't care what the reputation is because all a reputation is.....is just someones opinion. End of, and really doesn't matter a toss.
The image of chavvy scoobs is old hat and in any case if i were that bothered about it i wouldn't have bought my WRX Sportwagon. I love it to bits siince the first time i drove it and will probaly keep it for a very long time, if not run it into the ground.
My next purchase will be a litchfield type25. If you can afford it get one of those instead. If not perhaps an STi with the PPP is a cracking option and well worth the dosh, It will make you forget all about the FRS, even if the new one is 4X4
Scoobie owners ... they all think their car is better than anything else on the road. fact is, they are not. And yes they are common as muck, the 21st century Xr3i. sorry. Old, new, whatever, they are tarred with the same brush (shame, because the new STI is a decent looking car)
There is no reason to suggest a 4x4 focus will be worse than an STI scoob with the PPP. My brother owns one a PPP packed STI, yes its fast but not as quick as his old (modified) audi S2, and not as quick as my old modified GT4. It has 4 doors, decent boot, good performance and a warranty, which are the reasons he has it. fuel economy is utter shite though, even when poodling it around.
The scooby handling is very good, but dont knock the handling of a focus either. My TDCI kept up with a lotus elise this morning on my way to work through some tight bends and a roundabout. I was still right behind him until he left me for dead pulling onto the motorway. The focus is the best handling car Ive ever driven by a long shot(accept my old GT4, but that wasnt standard). With a decent lump and 4x4 there will be a lot of other car owners with red faces.
damian s said:
scoobiewrx said:
:J: Get the scooby, you won't regret it. Once you've driven it you won't care what the reputation is because all a reputation is.....is just someones opinion. End of, and really doesn't matter a toss.
The image of chavvy scoobs is old hat and in any case if i were that bothered about it i wouldn't have bought my WRX Sportwagon. I love it to bits siince the first time i drove it and will probaly keep it for a very long time, if not run it into the ground.
My next purchase will be a litchfield type25. If you can afford it get one of those instead. If not perhaps an STi with the PPP is a cracking option and well worth the dosh, It will make you forget all about the FRS, even if the new one is 4X4
Scoobie owners ... they all think their car is better than anything else on the road. fact is, they are not. And yes they are common as muck, the 21st century Xr3i. sorry. Old, new, whatever, they are tarred with the same brush (shame, because the new STI is a decent looking car)
There is no reason to suggest a 4x4 focus will be worse than an STI scoob with the PPP. My brother owns one a PPP packed STI, yes its fast but not as quick as his old (modified) audi S2, and not as quick as my old modified GT4. It has 4 doors, decent boot, good performance and a warranty, which are the reasons he has it. fuel economy is utter shite though, even when poodling it around.
The scooby handling is very good, but dont knock the handling of a focus either. My TDCI kept up with a lotus elise this morning on my way to work through some tight bends and a roundabout. I was still right behind him until he left me for dead pulling onto the motorway. The focus is the best handling car Ive ever driven by a long shot(accept my old GT4, but that wasnt standard). With a decent lump and 4x4 there will be a lot of other car owners with red faces.
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