RE: Ford revives sporty Focus RS
Discussion
ASBO said:
Ok Dave, lets take a step back down to earth.
You are clearly a man of intelligence but I fear that your argument has become lost in the quagmire of testosterone that has by all accounts raged out of control.
You make your point about the rangey sport and the ultima on said foggy [presumably twisty] road, and granted both are likely to take the same amount of time to get from points A to B owing to the conditions.
However, that is the case in ANY situation where progress is hindered. Alas this is where I feel you have fallen. You make many references about line of sight and corner speeds verging on the dangerous for the public road, but you seem to fail to regognise that corner speed is NOT a constant. rather it is a matter of road conditions and ability which determines corner speed which in turn are specific to each individual car, not cars per se.
Ergo, to use your example about the traffic cop, given the same road conditions, he will be faster in the elise owing to its ability to take corners faster and accelerate harder down the straights than the focus. Think about it, A Focus on 195 section tyres (I know the elise has tyres of equal width but it is consequently a third of the weight) will loose grip at a lower speed where by an entry speed of 60mph would be deemed dangerous by your traffic cop but perfectly acceptable in the elise. Thus to avoid the danger of driving both cars at maximum attack your Elise will still be quicker at (say for arguments sake) 8 tenths than the focus. Thus to keep up with the Elise, the copper in the focus would have to drive at or above ten tenths to keep up - wchich on a public road would be dangerous!
Naturally of course, should the elise approach a Car it will be slowed down ergo allowing the focus to catch up, but then the elise will dispatch it quicker and thus the circle starts again.
I just cannot see where your argument holds water and that is why you have provoked the reaction you have - indeed in a not too disimilar way to that which you did on 306gti6.com. Subsequently, by holding a 'discussion' you will invite responses to the nature by which they have been received by others.
Whilst I am not one to point the finger, if by general consensous, you receive more negative comments than you do positive, it is normally an upheld belive that you are incorrect....
I would very much like to here your comments post ST3 as to the sustainability of your argument in favour of the slower, less powerful car. Having driven the ST I know that on any given road even my old Gti6 would not see which way it went.
As for my Focus well, thats a different story
You are clearly a man of intelligence but I fear that your argument has become lost in the quagmire of testosterone that has by all accounts raged out of control.
You make your point about the rangey sport and the ultima on said foggy [presumably twisty] road, and granted both are likely to take the same amount of time to get from points A to B owing to the conditions.
However, that is the case in ANY situation where progress is hindered. Alas this is where I feel you have fallen. You make many references about line of sight and corner speeds verging on the dangerous for the public road, but you seem to fail to regognise that corner speed is NOT a constant. rather it is a matter of road conditions and ability which determines corner speed which in turn are specific to each individual car, not cars per se.
Ergo, to use your example about the traffic cop, given the same road conditions, he will be faster in the elise owing to its ability to take corners faster and accelerate harder down the straights than the focus. Think about it, A Focus on 195 section tyres (I know the elise has tyres of equal width but it is consequently a third of the weight) will loose grip at a lower speed where by an entry speed of 60mph would be deemed dangerous by your traffic cop but perfectly acceptable in the elise. Thus to avoid the danger of driving both cars at maximum attack your Elise will still be quicker at (say for arguments sake) 8 tenths than the focus. Thus to keep up with the Elise, the copper in the focus would have to drive at or above ten tenths to keep up - wchich on a public road would be dangerous!
Naturally of course, should the elise approach a Car it will be slowed down ergo allowing the focus to catch up, but then the elise will dispatch it quicker and thus the circle starts again.
I just cannot see where your argument holds water and that is why you have provoked the reaction you have - indeed in a not too disimilar way to that which you did on 306gti6.com. Subsequently, by holding a 'discussion' you will invite responses to the nature by which they have been received by others.
Whilst I am not one to point the finger, if by general consensous, you receive more negative comments than you do positive, it is normally an upheld belive that you are incorrect....
I would very much like to here your comments post ST3 as to the sustainability of your argument in favour of the slower, less powerful car. Having driven the ST I know that on any given road even my old Gti6 would not see which way it went.
As for my Focus well, thats a different story
Quotes such as these "I know that on any given road even my old Gti6 would not see which way it went" really sum up why I'm having this discussion in the first place. HOW is that a valid arguement for the basis of a two man concensus? Summing up with that statement is like your ignoring a good deal of what you just wrote!
I've already made the point you CANNOT make that distinction because your point of view is based around un-quantifiable driving style and understanding... Only controlled testing with known quantity drivers is a valid method.
That aside I guess the best you can do is ask said trained drivers their opinions. I have, I have learnt something, and I will leave the discussion at that because I have the answers I need.
I don't need the concensus of people to feel some form of self-ritcheousness, I spotted a rather generalised statement much like the one you made above, and questioned it! I just wanted to discuss the principle with people who care, and who don't respond with personal grating attacks because they have a different view thank you very much.
No hard feelings, just the thread has gone off topic and it's the wrong place for this discussion now.
Cheers
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 16th March 10:27
I think the point wippy is making is that the speed you drive on a road is entirely down to the safe physical road conditions. Eg, how fast you drive round a corner or down a straight is goverend by how far ahead you can see using the limit point technique (driving as fast as you can see) and not how fast the car is physically able to go round a corner or down a straight.
The limiting factor is the driver and the risks they're willing to take, not the car. So theoretically, if you put the same driver in a slow car and drive a stretch of road, and then put the same driver in a fast car on the same road, the point to point time would be about the same. This is because the driver will drive at a speed that they feel their abilities allow, regardless of potential vehicle performance.
Where it kind of falls over is that different vehicles allow adjustment of the limit point, for example it may have better brakes, higher safe cornering speeds etc. In which case the faster car would of course be faster.
Being a good driver is a function of vehicle performance characteristics combined with safe driving techniques, not either or.
The limiting factor is the driver and the risks they're willing to take, not the car. So theoretically, if you put the same driver in a slow car and drive a stretch of road, and then put the same driver in a fast car on the same road, the point to point time would be about the same. This is because the driver will drive at a speed that they feel their abilities allow, regardless of potential vehicle performance.
Where it kind of falls over is that different vehicles allow adjustment of the limit point, for example it may have better brakes, higher safe cornering speeds etc. In which case the faster car would of course be faster.
Being a good driver is a function of vehicle performance characteristics combined with safe driving techniques, not either or.
dvs_dave said:
Where it kind of falls over is that different vehicles allow adjustment of the limit point, for example it may have better brakes, higher safe cornering speeds etc. In which case the faster car would of course be faster.
Fair point, but my main problem with this in general conversation is that no one is really qualified to make an assesment on this except a highly advanced driver... A few good reads below suggest disparity against "faster cars" not really being faster all the time, especially on the road... again a good reason for empirical testing rather than the odd blat on your favourite road with a person you don't know in another car...
I was "left for dead" in my 306 Gti by a work colleague in his 1.4 Polo. He drove like a t**t, overtaking down the middle of opposing traffic and ignoring reasonable speed limits of 30mph through small villages to the tune of 60mph.
He could quite happily say he "left me for dead"...
So what do I say, I wasn't trying? Should I too have driven stupidly to make a point about my car being faster?
No.
No one can make these comparisons in a truly meaningful way on the road except trained drivers.
To assume our own on-road experiences are fairly executed or that both drivers are equal without any formal training to make them equal is just not meaningful.
Hence statements like "X would leave Y for dead in any conditions" or similar are just open to critisism, which I did, and for good reason.
Giant Killer, Clio Trophy vs M6 in Evo is a good read.
Northern exposure, Focus RS vs Mini Cooper S vs Clio Cup vs Impreza WRX in Evo is also a good read here.
Huge range of 0-60 and 0-100 times but all much of a muchness over a distance on many roads except those that have large straight aways with exceptional visibility...
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 16th March 12:36
thekirbyfake said:
ASBO said:
Having driven the ST I know that on any given road even my old Gti6 would not see which way it went.
Currently we're talking about pace and pace only but I can almost guarantee that the GTI6 driver would be having more sweaty palmed fun trying to keep up with the ST than the driver of the ST would.
Absolutely, in the same way that a Lotus 11 is arguably more fun to drive than a Porsche 911, but we are talking about cross country pace here.
thekirbyfake said:
Back O/T and wrt RS vs ST it's an interesting one. On paper stats for the two cars would put them fairly level whereas a proper thrap around some choice B-roads would show how useless paper is.
The ST struggles with rapid directional changes vs an ST170, let alone an RS. It also scrambles to get it's power down coming out of tight bends, the RS's raison d'être.
Disagree. Remember, The ST is actually 8 seconds faster than the RS round the ring. That has to count for something? I would however say that the RS is more involving, but that is a different matter
havoc said:
I said:
Ergo, to use your example about the traffic cop, given the same road conditions, he will be faster in the elise owing to its ability to take corners faster and accelerate harder down the straights than the focus. Think about it, A Focus on 195 section tyres (I know the elise has tyres of equal width but it is consequently a third of the weight) will loose grip at a lower speed where by an entry speed of 60mph would be deemed dangerous by your traffic cop but perfectly acceptable in the elise. Thus to avoid the danger of driving both cars at maximum attack your Elise will still be quicker at (say for arguments sake) 8 tenths than the focus. Thus to keep up with the Elise, the copper in the focus would have to drive at or above ten tenths to keep up - which on a public road would be dangerous!
A few flaws there:-
1) You're assuming that the limiting speed for a corner is grip-dependent.
It isn't, or shouldn't be, on a public road - as I said above, my Mk1 TDCi (Sport, on 215/40/17s) can corner on a B-road more than fast enough for me not to be able to stop in the distance I can see to be clear. In that regard on a twisty road I would suggest an Elise will have pretty much no advantage over any Focus, if the driver is driving to visibility not to the car's limits (which on a public road would be bloody stupid!).
Hmmm, a few flaws indeed. I don't understad your hang-up over visibility. What does that have to do with it (apart from the obvious)? Are you suggesting that the Focus is sufficiently tall enough to see over objects that the Elise cannot?
If you re-read the rest of my post you'll note that regardless of conditions/visibilitly or twisted knickers, the Focus driver will have to work harder to keep up with the Elise Driver. Pure and simple. You say grip is not the deciding facotor, so in your words, Your Focus with 205 section tyre would still cover ground just as quickly with 175's? Taking into account, things like sidewall flex and braking distance in accordance with visibility, I think not. Have you driven an Elise per chance?
havoc said:
2) You seem to be completely ignoring weather conditions. As I said above (again), I would travel a particular road, in the wet, faster in my Focus than in my S2000 (which has the advantages over an Elsie of ABS, broader tyres, and a better weight-distribution (50:50) for stability, particularly under braking.
Erm nope!
I said:
You make your point about the rangey sport and the ultima on said foggy [presumably twisty] road, and granted both are likely to take the same amount of time to get from points A to B owing to the conditions.
Conditions Are obviously a major factor, and the worse the conditions, the less any performance margin over certain cars becomes. However, I grant you that I too would likely be happier in your sporty focus in the wet than your Honda, but take a way your safety featues and what are you left with? I would argue that the benefits of your Focus are minimal in such intances.
havoc said:
3) [PH pedant mode] Even a Mk1 Elise weighs in getting on for 800kg kerb-weight. A Mk1 Focus TDCi is more like 1,200kg. So rather than being 1/3 of the weight, it's actually 2/3! [/PH pedant mode]
When you take the moral highground. Always ensure you have your facts right. [Pedant mode] Your Tdci actually weighs in the region of 1250kg's and the Elise S1 weighs 731kgs therefore making it 1.7 times as heavy. I actually sated the Focus was a third hevier. Infact it is even more so
Finally, Just how sporty is your Focus? I've never known one to offer in ideal 50:50 weight distribution before. Cool! [/Pedant mode]
havoc said:
In short, ASBO, you and Scooby seem to be ignoring what Dave and the rest of us are trying to say, which is that unless you're a dangerous nutter who completely disregards road conditions, there are likely to be numerous circumstances where owning (for example) an Elise proffers NO point-to-point pace benefits over a more mundane car (for example a Focus TDCi). That it'll be more fun in most conditions isn't argued, but that's always been OUR point, not yours.
Nope, wrong again. Might I refer you above. I had said that conditions ARE important, but if you look back to the origional 'ofending post', you'll note that adverse road conditions were not considered. *sigh*
So yes, you're super duper focus will stick to the tail of the elise if the roads are either very wet (more to do with the Elise's lack weight not allowing sufficent water dispursement)or foggy, but you will quickly lose sight of it on a damp/dry road. Moreover, I think you'll find it is only you and Dave who are detached from the rest of us.
havoc said:
As for the ST3...passengered in a mates' one when they first came out, and IMHO it's got FAR too much grip to be any fun on a typical UK B-road - your nerve would give out before the car's capabilities, and to be ANYWHERE near the limit you'll be doing silly speeds. So I'd take that GTi-6 for the extra fun/involvement! Oh...and then pocket the remaining £15k for a track-car, for repairs to both, and probably a holiday too...
Ah but rember Havoc dear boy. Grip ISN'T imporatnt
*sighs again* Oh, wait and driving close to the limit is dangerous on a publc road, therefore you will get closer to the limit quicker in my old GTi6 that you will in the ST I drove in January, thus making it faster point to point AND Safer.
Doh!
Next.....
Mr Whippy said:
Quotes such as these "I know that on any given road even my old Gti6 would not see which way it went" really sum up why I'm having this discussion in the first place. HOW is that a valid arguement for the basis of a two man concensus? Summing up with that statement is like your ignoring a good deal of what you just wrote!
Granted to some extent, I can see whay that seems slightly hypocritical.
mr whippy said:
I've already made the point you CANNOT make that distinction because your point of view is based around un-quantifiable driving style and understanding... Only controlled testing with known quantity drivers is a valid method.
No, I understand perfectly. Conditions and Driver ability vital factors, along with the car concerned. But you also need to bear in mind another key factor. Road knowledge.
mr whippy said:
I don't need the concensus of people to feel some form of self-ritcheousness, I spotted a rather generalised statement much like the one you made above, and questioned it! I just wanted to discuss the principle with people who care, and who don't respond with personal grating attacks because they have a different view thank you very much.
Not sure my point was generalised, and none of my 'attacks' were intended to be grating. Indeed I happen to care very much, which is why I have taken the trouble to create the worlds longest post
The Point I made Dave (and this still stands) is that your argument is IMO flawed not only in my opinion but also in the opinions of others. I fear that the reason for this is perhaps inexperiece of the the broad range of cars we have discussed. Add to the fact also, that we are talking about third hand accounts here of Elise slaying with no factual evidence of Car X being able to keep up with Car Y ownig to set criteria of conditions Z.
mr whippy said:
No hard feelings, just the thread has gone off topic and it's the wrong place for this discussion now.
None taken mate, that is what this site is for.
Phew!
Edited by ASBO on Friday 16th March 15:51
ASBO said:
But you also need to bear in mind another key factor. Road knowledge.
The Point I made Dave (and this still stands) is that your argument is IMO flawed not only in my opinion but also in the opinions of others. I fear that the reason for this is perhaps inexperiece of the the broad range of cars we have discussed.
The Point I made Dave (and this still stands) is that your argument is IMO flawed not only in my opinion but also in the opinions of others. I fear that the reason for this is perhaps inexperiece of the the broad range of cars we have discussed.
Road knowledge has little bearing on speed. Conditions continually change, and your observations should be sufficiently advanced enough to not require prior knowledge of the road when making at least safe progress.
I agree on the second part, I am not very experienced with the full range of cars discussed, but I have driven plenty and in trying to better my driving I have learnt that speed comes from being able to use it safely, and not just deploying it.
Surely that lesson alone supports my initial point? Or have you found you can from from A to B much faster now you drive a Focus RS over a 306 Gti **without any increased risk** in your driving style?
My arguement appears only to be totally disputed by two people who have also said, in summation of their posts, that "Fast car X will leave slower car Y (fast and slow only on paper/track) under all circumstances" or words to that effect. Coincidence?
I think you need to be at least take a look through Roadcraft and think about your own driving. I used to drive pretty briskly on the dales in my Gti6, but after reading and applying Roadcraft as best I can I've found my Hdi is ample to reach limit point driving on the twisties, has ample power to reach my chosen Vmax for most straights, it just takes a second or two longer to get to that peak speed.
This tells me I drove like a twit before to make my 306 Gti really show it's speed on the roads I enjoyed driving this type of car on! It's best advantage though I will admit is the fun factor and noise which made driving it even relatively slowly very fun, and overtaking potential was superior!
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 16th March 15:55
Mr Whippy said:
ASBO said:
But you also need to bear in mind another key factor. Road knowledge.
The Point I made Dave (and this still stands) is that your argument is IMO flawed not only in my opinion but also in the opinions of others. I fear that the reason for this is perhaps inexperiece of the the broad range of cars we have discussed.
The Point I made Dave (and this still stands) is that your argument is IMO flawed not only in my opinion but also in the opinions of others. I fear that the reason for this is perhaps inexperiece of the the broad range of cars we have discussed.
Road knowledge has little bearing on speed. Conditions continually change, and your observations should be sufficiently advanced enough to not require prior knowledge of the road when making at least safe progress.
I agree on the second part, I am not very experienced with the full range of cars discussed, but I have driven plenty and in trying to better my driving I have learnt that speed comes from being able to use it safely, and not just deploying it.
Surely that lesson alone supports my initial point? Or have you found you can from from A to B much faster now you drive a Focus RS over a 306 Gti **without any increased risk** in your driving style?
My arguement appears only to be totally disputed by two people who have also said, in summation of their posts, that "Fast car X will leave slower car Y (fast and slow only on paper/track) under all circumstances" or words to that effect. Coincidence?
I think you need to be at least take a look through Roadcraft and think about your own driving. I used to drive pretty briskly on the dales in my Gti6, but after reading and applying Roadcraft as best I can I've found my Hdi is ample to reach limit point driving on the twisties, has ample power to reach my chosen Vmax for most straights, it just takes a second or two longer to get to that peak speed.
This tells me I drove like a twit before to make my 306 Gti really show it's speed on the roads I enjoyed driving this type of car on! It's best advantage though I will admit is the fun factor and noise which made driving it even relatively slowly very fun, and overtaking potential was superior!
Dave
Find the last point a little condesending there Dave. I am an IAM member and take great pride in my ability to drive quickly and safely. Therefore I can relate to your example of the traffic cop because I was taught by one.
and for refernece, I was actually disputing the car x is faster than y claim
Of course speed should only be employed where entirely safe to do so. I would say that my Focus is much quicker point to point the Gti6 on any given road, on the grounds that it is far easier to maintain a constant momentum and overtake quicker than in the 6. Ih the wet I found the 6 to be seriously hindered by its playful rear end, but on the grounds of fun, the two are evenly matched. Ironicaly my Focus is also quicker point to point (in the dry) than the Elise I owned for a very short time, but again, this is down to its out-right grip and better torque. Perveresly though, I preferred the Elise in the wet as the steering was more feelsome and I could feel exactly what the tyres were doing. Subsequently I feel that I was able to cover ground much more efficiently than I was in my Focus*.
Focus is fitted with Yoko parada's which are notoriously shocking in the wet
ASBO said:
Of course speed should only be employed where entirely safe to do so. I would say that my Focus is much quicker point to point the Gti6 on any given road, on the grounds that it is far easier to maintain a constant momentum and overtake quicker than in the 6.
It's easier to maintain a constant momentum, but is it absolutely faster? Easier doesn't mean faster, it just means easier. It might be twice as hard to go as fast (and safely) in the Gti6, but it doesn't mean it's any slower... this is why some modern fast cars are so dull on the road, hit safe speeds without trying = bland...
Any given road? Well how about the ones that Evo magazine had trouble with in the review "Northern Exposure" apparently the Focus RS driver up back was driving with "Gritted teeth", not exactly what I'd call fun, and certainly probably on the edge of what we'll call "safe"
The Impreza with more weight, less torque, only marginally more power and much slower to 100mph considering it's 4wd, is actually on the pace of the Focus RS, with more ease, and so is the Mini behind that.
So not really any given road? A Mini Cooper S was keeping up with the Scooby, which was also happily keeping pace with the "edge of the seat" Focus RS...
And it's power and power to weight really don't give it much of an advantage in those conditions at least... a whole region with those conditions, not really unique or selective roads.
ASBO said:
Ih the wet I found the 6 to be seriously hindered by its playful rear end, but on the grounds of fun, the two are evenly matched. Ironicaly my Focus is also quicker point to point (in the dry) than the Elise I owned for a very short time, but again, this is down to its out-right grip and better torque. Perveresly though, I preferred the Elise in the wet as the steering was more feelsome and I could feel exactly what the tyres were doing. Subsequently I feel that I was able to cover ground much more efficiently than I was in my Focus*.
How is the Focus RS quicker point to point down to outright grip? The Elise has tons of grip, an equal 0-60 time, and even the S1 with ~ 120bhp is only 2s off the pace to 100mph... I'm getting into figures here, which mean little on the road as I've tried to say... and as for torque, well if your maximising the safe performance of the car it's all about power and power to weight when it comes to acceleration, you are using the gearbox?
I agree you can cover ground more easily, but I wasn't ever talking about that. I suggested a faster car makes safe progress easier, but not much quicker than a slower car (on paper)...
But lets go back...
ASBO said:
Put simply, a cars' power to weight ratio and lateral grip will be the main deciding factor in a cross-country blat.
Again, this is essentially ignoring the other factors which dictate cross-country pace, and is what I disagree'd with.
New arguements are coming up and we are loosing sight of the original point I was making... which is driver and visibility is key, stability and brakes secondary, and power and performance comes in last when determining cross-country pace.
I feel that power and performance after all the above are relative small fry, throw in the varying road conditions and they become even less relevant as they can't be used all the time... an F40 in pouring rain has it's acceleration slashed, wheras a car that has less power has it's accelerative performance altered less...
My point is that generalising that a car that is fast on paper or on the track doesn't automatically "leave for dead" "walk away from" or anything else like that! You CANNOT say that... it's just silly. It's like saying a car with wider tyres will always go faster round bends
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 16th March 17:21
Ignoring most of it as we're clearly debating at cross-purposes...
1) No, grip isn't important beyond a certain level, unless you're on track. On a B-road grip in even my Focus (let alone an Elise or FST) exceeds limit-point cornering speeds. On an A-road or better grip comfortably exceeds the speed limit, regardless of limit-point cornering speeds. So re: the three cars under discussion, we can therefore assume that a SAFE, FAST driver will be cornering at about the same speed. Possibly slowest in the Elise where visibility is worst or where weather conditions are poor.
2) But I would argue that the lower the limits the more progressive the break-away, in most cases. And also the older the car the better the feedback - GTi6 mullers an FST for steering feel and for understanding of where the limits are, so a competent driver would be safer near the limit in the GTi-6. So it's a score-draw there!
ASBO said:
Ah but rember Havoc dear boy. Grip ISN'T imporatnt *sighs again*
Oh, wait and driving close to the limit is dangerous on a public road, therefore you will get closer to the limit quicker in my old GTi6 that you will in the ST I drove in January, thus making it faster point to point AND Safer.
Doh!
Next.....
*sighs again* Oh, wait and driving close to the limit is dangerous on a public road, therefore you will get closer to the limit quicker in my old GTi6 that you will in the ST I drove in January, thus making it faster point to point AND Safer.
Doh!
Next.....
1) No, grip isn't important beyond a certain level, unless you're on track. On a B-road grip in even my Focus (let alone an Elise or FST) exceeds limit-point cornering speeds. On an A-road or better grip comfortably exceeds the speed limit, regardless of limit-point cornering speeds. So re: the three cars under discussion, we can therefore assume that a SAFE, FAST driver will be cornering at about the same speed. Possibly slowest in the Elise where visibility is worst or where weather conditions are poor.
2) But I would argue that the lower the limits the more progressive the break-away, in most cases. And also the older the car the better the feedback - GTi6 mullers an FST for steering feel and for understanding of where the limits are, so a competent driver would be safer near the limit in the GTi-6. So it's a score-draw there!
scoobiewrx said:
damian s said:
scoobiewrx said:
Are you lot still going on about the TDCi being faster than anything else on the road
You're a bullshitter as well as an ignorant bellend.
I'm no bullshitter and always tell the truth no matter how much it upsets anyone... so tough shi1te on that one. I may be a bellend so i go back to my previous post. But being called ignorant really gets my goat so i'll tell you what damien.... If i ever have the misfortune to meet you i'll show you just how f***king ignorant i'm not
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