Discussion
Hi I have just bought an ST200, and have a couple of questions.
Tonight, ran out of fuel, despite the computor saying 55 mile to go? Do they play up like this?
The engine seems to feel flat until about 3750 rpm, slight stumble , then feels fine through the rev range?
Any input will be much appreciated,
Cheers,
Fab
Tonight, ran out of fuel, despite the computor saying 55 mile to go? Do they play up like this?
The engine seems to feel flat until about 3750 rpm, slight stumble , then feels fine through the rev range?
Any input will be much appreciated,
Cheers,
Fab
The miles-to-go predictor is based (so far as I know) on the fuel level sender in the tank. When it ran out was the fuel gauge needle at the bottom or above it? So far as I know, the only calibration that can be done to the fuel computer is to correct the fuel flow sensor.
It sounds like the secondary throttles are sticking open. Normally they stick shut which gives poor performance (well, no performance) over 3750rpm. If you have a look at www.fordmondeo.org/ the forum there has lots and lots of advice about the sticking secondaries.
It sounds like the secondary throttles are sticking open. Normally they stick shut which gives poor performance (well, no performance) over 3750rpm. If you have a look at www.fordmondeo.org/ the forum there has lots and lots of advice about the sticking secondaries.
The secondary butterflys can not stick open an ST200-the bloody great spring puts paid to that! They all have a dip in the power curve when the secondary runners come in, if it is gutless high up the rev range then the IMRC isn't opening the secondary runners(common for this to be intermittant). Box is about £120 from a dealer and is bolted to the front cam cover under the Duratec engine cover. Only Mk1's can possibly have the secondary butterflys stick as they use a vacuum actautor with no spring.
The secondaries could well be gunged up... happens with mileage. How miles many on the car..?
Trip computer thing in mine seems pretty accurate. Beeps if I let it get as low as 50 miles... lowest I've seen is about 20 miles. From documents I've seen even when it reads zero, there is 16 miles left in the tank - sounds like summat is up.
Trip computer thing in mine seems pretty accurate. Beeps if I let it get as low as 50 miles... lowest I've seen is about 20 miles. From documents I've seen even when it reads zero, there is 16 miles left in the tank - sounds like summat is up.
May sound daft but have you tried on high-octane fuel like optimax? If the ecu and knock sensor are feeling pedantic they won't open the secondarys. Apparently folk have seen that the higher octane helps clean it up. Thats not something I've experienced myself so am taking other people's word for that.
And I assumed the miles to go predictor uses your recent economy to predict it - leading to it thinking there's a long way to go if you've just done a 56mph A-road journey, but slightly less to go for a similar amount of fuel when you've been razzing it around B-roads.
And I assumed the miles to go predictor uses your recent economy to predict it - leading to it thinking there's a long way to go if you've just done a 56mph A-road journey, but slightly less to go for a similar amount of fuel when you've been razzing it around B-roads.
Edited by cj_eds on Monday 23 April 15:56
Have run my old one (now the wife's) down to the 3 dashes on the fuel read out more than once and easily done another 10 miles past the dashes.
A couple years back noticed that there was a terrible flat spot / and noticeable kangarooing between 3.2k and 4k revs, especially bad in 5th if you wanted to overtake on the motorway.
Changed the plugs and leads and it improved slightly but shortly afterwards the mobiliser unit packed up and had to have the car towed to the dealer. They replaced that unit (about £120 plus labour) and the flat spot and kangarooing disappeared. Service mechanic reckoned the odd behaviour at the 3.2k-4k revs was a symptom of the mobiliser unit on it's way out.
The car has now done 144k miles and had a re-map last year which took it from a very surprising 214bhp to a fuel economy 220bhp setting !
As it was my old company car it's proved to be a fantastic bargain as it only cost me £6.9k after it was 3 years old. (Probably get tuppence happenny for it now although it still looks stunning when clean)
A couple years back noticed that there was a terrible flat spot / and noticeable kangarooing between 3.2k and 4k revs, especially bad in 5th if you wanted to overtake on the motorway.
Changed the plugs and leads and it improved slightly but shortly afterwards the mobiliser unit packed up and had to have the car towed to the dealer. They replaced that unit (about £120 plus labour) and the flat spot and kangarooing disappeared. Service mechanic reckoned the odd behaviour at the 3.2k-4k revs was a symptom of the mobiliser unit on it's way out.
The car has now done 144k miles and had a re-map last year which took it from a very surprising 214bhp to a fuel economy 220bhp setting !
As it was my old company car it's proved to be a fantastic bargain as it only cost me £6.9k after it was 3 years old. (Probably get tuppence happenny for it now although it still looks stunning when clean)
Podie said:
seesure said:
The car has now done 144k miles and had a re-map last year which took it from a very surprising 214bhp to a fuel economy 220bhp setting !
Mind if I ask where this was done, and how much of your hard earned you had to part with..?
I shall join an orderly queue! Thought about getting mine RR'd and remapped when I first got it (18months ago) but never got around to it.
cj_eds said:
May sound daft but have you tried on high-octane fuel like optimax? If the ecu and knock sensor are feeling pedantic they won't open the secondarys. Apparently folk have seen that the higher octane helps clean it up. Thats not something I've experienced myself so am taking other people's word for that.
And I assumed the miles to go predictor uses your recent economy to predict it - leading to it thinking there's a long way to go if you've just done a 56mph A-road journey, but slightly less to go for a similar amount of fuel when you've been razzing it around B-roads.
And I assumed the miles to go predictor uses your recent economy to predict it - leading to it thinking there's a long way to go if you've just done a 56mph A-road journey, but slightly less to go for a similar amount of fuel when you've been razzing it around B-roads.
Edited by cj_eds on Monday 23 April 15:56
You could stick the crapiest fuel in the world in and the secondary valves would still open-without them the car won't go above 70-80MPH!
cj_eds said:
Podie said:
seesure said:
The car has now done 144k miles and had a re-map last year which took it from a very surprising 214bhp to a fuel economy 220bhp setting !
Mind if I ask where this was done, and how much of your hard earned you had to part with..?
I shall join an orderly queue! Thought about getting mine RR'd and remapped when I first got it (18months ago) but never got around to it.
Most '200s are really around 180-190 from what I understand, with the standard V6 (quoted as 170bhp) more like 150-160 from what I have been told.
The 200 benefits from a panel filter and decent exhaust, but in real terms chipping generally offers better fuel economy and driveability than outright power/torque gains.
Dave_ST220 said:
You could stick the crapiest fuel in the world in and the secondary valves would still open-without them the car won't go above 70-80MPH!
My understanding was that it would switch to its default map, something akin to a limp home mode which involved not opening the secondaries. As I say, I'm taking other people's word for it.
Why do you say it won't go over 70-80mph? Is that purely down to not be able to create the right fuel/air mix to produce the torque required to shift the weight? I'm surprised that 12 valves aren't enough to keep it running even with minimal acceleration, as opposed to effectively acting as a rev limiter as the speed limit would suggest.
excuse the misuse of jargon, I'm a software engineer not a mechanical one!
Dave_ST220 said:
The secondary butterflys can not stick open an ST200-the bloody great spring puts paid to that! They all have a dip in the power curve when the secondary runners come in, if it is gutless high up the rev range then the IMRC isn't opening the secondary runners(common for this to be intermittant). Box is about £120 from a dealer and is bolted to the front cam cover under the Duratec engine cover. Only Mk1's can possibly have the secondary butterflys stick as they use a vacuum actautor with no spring.
The IMRC box benefits from a relocation away the rocker cover, they are a common failure through heat damage, but can apparently be DIY repaired.
The secondaries can stick on any year V6, they get coked up and then don't shut fully making the lower rev range feel flat, however these engines aren't particulary lively below 3500rpm anyway and it's usually best to apply light throttle to get the most power at low revs.
Another thing that can hapen is the oxygen sensors get coked up making the emmissions wrong, it's worth changing them if the car is high mileage.
cj_eds said:
Dave_ST220 said:
You could stick the crapiest fuel in the world in and the secondary valves would still open-without them the car won't go above 70-80MPH!
My understanding was that it would switch to its default map, something akin to a limp home mode which involved not opening the secondaries. As I say, I'm taking other people's word for it.
Why do you say it won't go over 70-80mph? Is that purely down to not be able to create the right fuel/air mix to produce the torque required to shift the weight? I'm surprised that 12 valves aren't enough to keep it running even with minimal acceleration, as opposed to effectively acting as a rev limiter as the speed limit would suggest.
excuse the misuse of jargon, I'm a software engineer not a mechanical one!
Without secondary runners opening the engine simply can not "breath" enough-it will struggle to rev past 4000RPM.Limp home mode is only when the ECU sensors sonmething out of range like a sensor fault-the fans will run continuously(as will the fuel pump in ignition position 2) and it will struggle to 50MPH!
Podie said:
Mind if I ask where this was done, and how much of your hard earned you had to part with..?
No problem, as it is now the wife's car (for 3 years now) she took it to Chipped UK (Jason) and the re-map was £225, but it was a special price as it was organised by the ST Owners forum who had a day out up there.
From what she was told the best BHP that Jason had seen on the ST200 without re-mapping was 216 bhp although they do vary from car to car. Some down in the 190s...
zzr said:
Dave_ST220 said:
The secondary butterflys can not stick open an ST200-the bloody great spring puts paid to that! They all have a dip in the power curve when the secondary runners come in, if it is gutless high up the rev range then the IMRC isn't opening the secondary runners(common for this to be intermittant). Box is about £120 from a dealer and is bolted to the front cam cover under the Duratec engine cover. Only Mk1's can possibly have the secondary butterflys stick as they use a vacuum actautor with no spring.
The IMRC box benefits from a relocation away the rocker cover, they are a common failure through heat damage, but can apparently be DIY repaired.
The secondaries can stick on any year V6, they get coked up and then don't shut fully making the lower rev range feel flat, however these engines aren't particulary lively below 3500rpm anyway and it's usually best to apply light throttle to get the most power at low revs.
Another thing that can hapen is the oxygen sensors get coked up making the emmissions wrong, it's worth changing them if the car is high mileage.
Sorry but anyone who has worked on these engines will know they can't stick, they are closed by default(apart from MK1-open when engine is off) and open at 3500RPM depending on throttle.Yes they coke up but that does not make them stick, oily deposits and coke can not overcome a spring with a very high force! Maybe if the IMRC hasn't worked for 12K miles then just maybe but you'd notice that. I've never seen that in all the engines i've worked on.
Dave_ST220 said:
zzr said:
Dave_ST220 said:
The secondary butterflys can not stick open an ST200-the bloody great spring puts paid to that! They all have a dip in the power curve when the secondary runners come in, if it is gutless high up the rev range then the IMRC isn't opening the secondary runners(common for this to be intermittant). Box is about £120 from a dealer and is bolted to the front cam cover under the Duratec engine cover. Only Mk1's can possibly have the secondary butterflys stick as they use a vacuum actautor with no spring.
The IMRC box benefits from a relocation away the rocker cover, they are a common failure through heat damage, but can apparently be DIY repaired.
The secondaries can stick on any year V6, they get coked up and then don't shut fully making the lower rev range feel flat, however these engines aren't particulary lively below 3500rpm anyway and it's usually best to apply light throttle to get the most power at low revs.
Another thing that can hapen is the oxygen sensors get coked up making the emmissions wrong, it's worth changing them if the car is high mileage.
Sorry but anyone who has worked on these engines will know they can't stick, they are closed by default(apart from MK1-open when engine is off) and open at 3500RPM depending on throttle.Yes they coke up but that does not make them stick, oily deposits and coke can not overcome a spring with a very high force! Maybe if the IMRC hasn't worked for 12K miles then just maybe but you'd notice that. I've never seen that in all the engines i've worked on.
Maybe not stick but they can be prevented from closing properly which is as good as sticking! Anyway read MEG and you'll see loads of people having problems with the secondaries not working properly and most people will recommend cleaning them every now and again.
Read MEG....errr no! I had over 10000 posts on that site which is now full of Chavs. I'm also one of the first who came up with various options on the secondary runners,oh and i invented the "anti moose pipe"" lol which my friend Monk(site owner) now sells. Trust me on this one-they can not stick any more than the throttle plate can. Finnaly, if you decide to clean them take the LIM off and DO NOT clean in situe like most people do! More harm thah good..........
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