tvr rover based engine specs and choices
Discussion
Carrying on from the post simonas has started ref engine choices and which car to buy with the rover based i will try and explain the differences. As the thread has gone onto forget the engine and by the best car etc.... which is good advice but i will hopefully explain what the engines have and how tuneable they are. I have driven every derivitive and stripped and rebuilt all the options,
Lets start with the 4.0, 2 derivities the standard and the hc, the hc stands for high lift cam, the non hc is a standard range rover engine running 9.35-1 cr, all tvr did was fit a tvr 51 camshaft, fit double valve springs and machine the spring seats and cut the guides down to allow a slightly higer lift cam, thats it in a nut shell they obviously used there own ecu chips as in all other tvr cars, a genuine power output on a proper engine dyno is just over 200 hp.
The hc ran the same short engine again 9.35-1, however they upgraded to the tvr 435 cam which is basically a kent 214 with an extended lca to 116, they also came with pocketed pistons to allow for the londer duration cam, other than that same as the non hc, power was around 215hp
Onto the 4.5, again came in 2 derivities hc and non hc, non hc was the same as the 4.0 but you got 600cc more capacity, again 9.35-1 standard heads etc..., the hc in this model came with the tvr 435 cam but was also fitted with the larger valves from the 500 engine, the valve throats where also enlarged and blended but the rest of the head was not ported, again both where fitted with double valve springs and there own ecu chip, non hc made 210hp hc made 230hp
Onto the 5.0, ok this is a completely different story, they threw the standard rover engine away and started putting all there own stuff inside, the crank was a newly cast 90mm stroke, the connecting rods where a newly cast 5.5 inch, the pistons they kept as range rover using them from a low compression 4.2, they machined the bottoms off to miss the counterweights on the crank, cam was the same as the previous hc models the tvr 435, the heads where hugely ported all the way through, fitted with the larger valves and douple valve springs, the inlet manifold was ported both ends to match the heads and the larger trumpet base fitted, compresion was also increased to 10.2-1, power of the engines was 275hp.
So to sum things up tvr have gone from an almost stock 4.0 to there own tuned 5.0 and only gained around 65hp is that enough? well you also need to remember what the torque these engines also produce, as a rule of thumb with the rover engine you can use a 10ftlb increase in every 100cc capacity increase, and torque is what will make your car feel quick upto the point where bhp takes over 5250 rpm, so a 5.0 has 100ftlb more than a 4.0, hmm not quite but our tuned engines do, even so the 500 has gobfulls more than the 4.0.
Tuning them, and i will try and put one thing to bed here, long stroke cranks dont rev?? utter b
ks, a 5.0 can be made just as responsive as a 4.0, it is the internall weight you are moving, again rev limits are dependent on your components not the size of the crank, i have a 351 windsor with a 102 mm crank and rev that to 6500, my old 5.5 rover engines 94mm crank i built some of them where built as race cars and they reved to 7500 rpm, so yes big engine can quite happily rev, (look at nascar engines!!)
TUNING all n/a
This is allways going to boil down to how deep your pockets are, and your intended goals, if you want 500hp but have a budget of £1000 this is not going to happen so i will try and explain your best bang per buck.
Starting with the 4.0 your best performance increase is going to come from upgrading to a 4.6 short engine, even if you keep all your original heads and cam, induction etc..., increase the compresion ratio at the same time and you will instantly have a 50ftlb increase with the same driveabillty, and a small increase in hp,next on the cards would be a decent set of cylinder heads and then the camshaft, after this start looking at the induction side of things, polished ported manifold large plenum etc..., going this route you will basically end up with something like a stage 3 4.6, these generally make around 300hp if you start with the induction side of things you are not going to really notice any gains, if you want to stay with 4.0 short engine then really heads and a cam change would be my first port of call, this will release around 40-50hp.
The 4.5 is a very good basis to start from, again you can upgrade to a larger engine depending on your budget but lets stay with the 4.6 engine, as like the 4.0 the heads are first port of call, stage 3 heads and cam first, then do all the induction side of things, the heads will release around 40hp on a non hc and around 25 on an hc, cam another 20, add to that your induction mods ported inlet/45mm trumpet base and large plenum and you release another 20, all good gains and worthwhile gains, like i said on the 4.0 engine, if you were to put your induction mods on first you will see around 10hp if you are lucky, thats because the standard engine as a package doesnt need big plenums etc..
The 5.0 is a bit different in aspects of tuning, its not really tuning and making things bigger as such, but rectifying the faults, if you have a problem with your engine that means it needs a rebuild then it is definetly worth getting the engine internally balanced, the balance on these engines was shocking, if you ever see a flywheel or a front pulley it looks swiss cheese on one side!, this also is one of the resulting problems of the cranks snapping, more so on the small journal blocks, (factory 500 cross bolted blocks ran a stronger crank), if you are just looking at tuning and tweaking then really it is, cam change, induction mods etc..., the standard cylinder heads have huge ports, too big IMHO, but more so in the wrong places, they can be re-profiled and fitted with bulleted guides, which improves them nicely, the inlet manifold is even bigger at the head face, so big that the air coming down the inlet tract hits the face of the head, this causes reversal and all sorts of problems, so a new inlet manifold is needed, the trumpet base needs swapping for a 45mm type, and throw those horrible exhaust tubes away!!, and then top off with a minimum of a 72mm plenum, if budget permits have a look at the carbon offerings from act, my preference is the tripple he does. These also suffer from the exhaust port in the head being bigger than the exhaust manifold, again this needs sorting and can easily be done with a dremmel or similar tool, this alone will release around 10hp.
Sorry other stuff to do i will continue later and edit
Lets start with the 4.0, 2 derivities the standard and the hc, the hc stands for high lift cam, the non hc is a standard range rover engine running 9.35-1 cr, all tvr did was fit a tvr 51 camshaft, fit double valve springs and machine the spring seats and cut the guides down to allow a slightly higer lift cam, thats it in a nut shell they obviously used there own ecu chips as in all other tvr cars, a genuine power output on a proper engine dyno is just over 200 hp.
The hc ran the same short engine again 9.35-1, however they upgraded to the tvr 435 cam which is basically a kent 214 with an extended lca to 116, they also came with pocketed pistons to allow for the londer duration cam, other than that same as the non hc, power was around 215hp
Onto the 4.5, again came in 2 derivities hc and non hc, non hc was the same as the 4.0 but you got 600cc more capacity, again 9.35-1 standard heads etc..., the hc in this model came with the tvr 435 cam but was also fitted with the larger valves from the 500 engine, the valve throats where also enlarged and blended but the rest of the head was not ported, again both where fitted with double valve springs and there own ecu chip, non hc made 210hp hc made 230hp
Onto the 5.0, ok this is a completely different story, they threw the standard rover engine away and started putting all there own stuff inside, the crank was a newly cast 90mm stroke, the connecting rods where a newly cast 5.5 inch, the pistons they kept as range rover using them from a low compression 4.2, they machined the bottoms off to miss the counterweights on the crank, cam was the same as the previous hc models the tvr 435, the heads where hugely ported all the way through, fitted with the larger valves and douple valve springs, the inlet manifold was ported both ends to match the heads and the larger trumpet base fitted, compresion was also increased to 10.2-1, power of the engines was 275hp.
So to sum things up tvr have gone from an almost stock 4.0 to there own tuned 5.0 and only gained around 65hp is that enough? well you also need to remember what the torque these engines also produce, as a rule of thumb with the rover engine you can use a 10ftlb increase in every 100cc capacity increase, and torque is what will make your car feel quick upto the point where bhp takes over 5250 rpm, so a 5.0 has 100ftlb more than a 4.0, hmm not quite but our tuned engines do, even so the 500 has gobfulls more than the 4.0.
Tuning them, and i will try and put one thing to bed here, long stroke cranks dont rev?? utter b
ks, a 5.0 can be made just as responsive as a 4.0, it is the internall weight you are moving, again rev limits are dependent on your components not the size of the crank, i have a 351 windsor with a 102 mm crank and rev that to 6500, my old 5.5 rover engines 94mm crank i built some of them where built as race cars and they reved to 7500 rpm, so yes big engine can quite happily rev, (look at nascar engines!!)TUNING all n/a
This is allways going to boil down to how deep your pockets are, and your intended goals, if you want 500hp but have a budget of £1000 this is not going to happen so i will try and explain your best bang per buck.
Starting with the 4.0 your best performance increase is going to come from upgrading to a 4.6 short engine, even if you keep all your original heads and cam, induction etc..., increase the compresion ratio at the same time and you will instantly have a 50ftlb increase with the same driveabillty, and a small increase in hp,next on the cards would be a decent set of cylinder heads and then the camshaft, after this start looking at the induction side of things, polished ported manifold large plenum etc..., going this route you will basically end up with something like a stage 3 4.6, these generally make around 300hp if you start with the induction side of things you are not going to really notice any gains, if you want to stay with 4.0 short engine then really heads and a cam change would be my first port of call, this will release around 40-50hp.
The 4.5 is a very good basis to start from, again you can upgrade to a larger engine depending on your budget but lets stay with the 4.6 engine, as like the 4.0 the heads are first port of call, stage 3 heads and cam first, then do all the induction side of things, the heads will release around 40hp on a non hc and around 25 on an hc, cam another 20, add to that your induction mods ported inlet/45mm trumpet base and large plenum and you release another 20, all good gains and worthwhile gains, like i said on the 4.0 engine, if you were to put your induction mods on first you will see around 10hp if you are lucky, thats because the standard engine as a package doesnt need big plenums etc..
The 5.0 is a bit different in aspects of tuning, its not really tuning and making things bigger as such, but rectifying the faults, if you have a problem with your engine that means it needs a rebuild then it is definetly worth getting the engine internally balanced, the balance on these engines was shocking, if you ever see a flywheel or a front pulley it looks swiss cheese on one side!, this also is one of the resulting problems of the cranks snapping, more so on the small journal blocks, (factory 500 cross bolted blocks ran a stronger crank), if you are just looking at tuning and tweaking then really it is, cam change, induction mods etc..., the standard cylinder heads have huge ports, too big IMHO, but more so in the wrong places, they can be re-profiled and fitted with bulleted guides, which improves them nicely, the inlet manifold is even bigger at the head face, so big that the air coming down the inlet tract hits the face of the head, this causes reversal and all sorts of problems, so a new inlet manifold is needed, the trumpet base needs swapping for a 45mm type, and throw those horrible exhaust tubes away!!, and then top off with a minimum of a 72mm plenum, if budget permits have a look at the carbon offerings from act, my preference is the tripple he does. These also suffer from the exhaust port in the head being bigger than the exhaust manifold, again this needs sorting and can easily be done with a dremmel or similar tool, this alone will release around 10hp.
Sorry other stuff to do i will continue later and edit
Edited by v8 racing on Friday 19th April 19:12
Interesting summary. Would like to hear more. Lot's more please.
Can we still believe that the Le Mans Triumph TR7 Rover 3.619L V8 achieved over 500bhp with twin 2in SUs coupled with twin turbos. 30 years ago! If the same was done today, our 5L would/may be capable of nearly 700bhp. Strewth! If this is possible, then the LS3 need not be an option. Lot more life in RV8.
Can we still believe that the Le Mans Triumph TR7 Rover 3.619L V8 achieved over 500bhp with twin 2in SUs coupled with twin turbos. 30 years ago! If the same was done today, our 5L would/may be capable of nearly 700bhp. Strewth! If this is possible, then the LS3 need not be an option. Lot more life in RV8.
Edited by EGB on Friday 19th April 09:49
Rob,
Good post.
Anything special for the 4.2 (mine) and 4.5 SEAC engines power wise?
Several times I've read that the earlier engines churned out more horses. These were homologated for racing if that makes any difference?
I know there are both long and short stroke 5.0's.
Is one an aftermarket combo or were both fitted into various TVR's?
Is there much difference in revability between the two?
Phil
420 SEAC
Good post.
Anything special for the 4.2 (mine) and 4.5 SEAC engines power wise?
Several times I've read that the earlier engines churned out more horses. These were homologated for racing if that makes any difference?
I know there are both long and short stroke 5.0's.
Is one an aftermarket combo or were both fitted into various TVR's?
Is there much difference in revability between the two?
Phil
420 SEAC
A big thank you Rob - I think that's the most instructive post that I have seen on Pistonheads in a few years now.
It certainly contains some not-seen-before gems, and actually solves a mystery that I have been trying to investigate for a while now.
Thanks for taking the time out to post that.
Dom
It certainly contains some not-seen-before gems, and actually solves a mystery that I have been trying to investigate for a while now.
Thanks for taking the time out to post that.
Dom
v8 racing said:
Carrying on from the post simonas has started ref engine choices and which car to buy with the rover based i will try and explain the differences. As the thread has gone onto forget the engine and by the best car etc.... which is good advice but i will hopefully explain what the engines have and how tuneable they are. I have driven every derivitive and stripped and rebuilt all the options,
Lets start with the 4.0, 2 derivities the standard and the hc, the hc stands for high lift cam, the non hc is a standard range rover engine running 9.35-1 cr, all tvr did was fit a tvr 51 camshaft, fit double valve springs and machine the spring seats and cut the guides down to allow a slightly higer lift cam, thats it in a nut shell they obviously used there own ecu chips as in all other tvr cars, a genuine power output on a proper engine dyno is just over 200 hp.
The hc ran the same short engine again 9.35-1, however they upgraded to the tvr 435 cam which is basically a kent 214 with an extended lca to 116, they also came with pocketed pistons to allow for the londer duration cam, other than that same as the non hc, power was around 215hp
Onto the 4.5, again came in 2 derivities hc and non hc, non hc was the same as the 4.0 but you got 600cc more capacity, again 9.35-1 standard heads etc..., the hc in this model came with the tvr 435 cam but was also fitted with the larger valves from the 500 engine, the valve throats where also enlarged and blended but the rest of the head was not ported, again both where fitted with double valve springs and there own ecu chip, non hc made 210hp hc made 230hp
Onto the 5.0, ok this is a completely different story, they threw the standard rover engine away and started putting all there own stuff inside, the crank was a newly cast 90mm stroke, the connecting rods where a newly cast 5.5 inch, the pistons they kept as range rover using them from a low compression 4.2, they machined the bottoms off to miss the counterweights on the crank, cam was the same as the previous hc models the tvr 435, the heads where hugely ported all the way through, fitted with the larger valves and douple valve springs, the inlet manifold was ported both ends to match the heads and the larger trumpet base fitted, compresion was also increased to 10.2-1, power of the engines was 275hp.
So to sum things up tvr have gone from an almost stock 4.0 to there own tuned 5.0 and only gained around 65hp is that enough? well you also need to remember what the torque these engines also produce, as a rule of thumb with the rover engine you can use a 10ftlb increase in every 100cc capacity increase, and torque is what will make your car feel quick upto the point where bhp takes over 5250 rpm, so a 5.0 has 100ftlb more than a 4.0, hmm not quite but our tuned engines do, even so the 500 has gobfulls more than the 4.0.
Tuning them, and i will try and put one thing to bed here, long stroke cranks dont rev?? utter bks, a 5.0 can be made just as responsive as a 4.0, it is the internall weight you are moving, again rev limits are dependent on your components not the size of the crank, i have a 351 windsor with a 102 mm crank and rev that to 6500, my old 5.5 rover engines 94mm crank i built some of them where built as race cars and they reved to 7500 rpm, so yes big engine can quite happily rev, (look at nascar engines!!)
TUNING all n/a
This is allways going to boil down to how deep your pockets are, and your intended goals, if you want 500hp but have a budget of £1000 this is not going to happen so i will try and explain your best bang per buck.
Starting with the 4.0 your best performance increase is going to come from upgrading to a 4.6 short engine, even if you keep all your original heads and cam, induction etc..., increase the compresion ratio at the same time and you will instantly have a 50ftlb increase with the same driveabillty, and a small increase in hp,next on the cards would be a decent set of cylinder heads and then the camshaft, after this start looking at the induction side of things, polished ported manifold large plenum etc..., going this route you will basically end up with something like a stage 3 4.6, these generally make around 300hp if you start with the induction side of things you are not going to really notice any gains, if you want to stay with 4.0 short engine then really heads and a cam change would be my first port of call, this will release around 40-50hp.
The 4.5 is a very good basis to start from, again you can upgrade to a larger engine depending on your budget but lets stay with the 4.6 engine, as like the 4.0 the heads are first port of call, stage 3 heads and cam first, then do all the induction side of things, the heads will release around 40hp on a non hc and around 25 on an hc, cam another 20, add to that your induction mods ported inlet/45mm trumpet base and large plenum and you release another 20, all good gains and worthwhile gains, like i said on the 4.0 engine, if you were to put your induction mods on first you will see around 10hp if you are lucky, thats because the standard engine as a package doesnt need big plenums etc..
The 5.0 is a bit different in aspects of tuning, its not really tuning and making things bigger as such, but rectifying the faults, if you have a problem with your engine that means it needs a rebuild then it is definetly worth getting the engine internally balanced, the balance on these engines was shocking, if you ever see a flywheel or a front pulley it looks swiss cheese on one side!, this also is one of the resulting problems of the cranks snapping, more so on the small journal blocks, (factory 500 cross bolted blocks ran a stronger crank), if you are just looking at tuning and tweaking then really it is, cam change, induction mods etc..., the standard cylinder heads have huge ports, too big IMHO, but more so in the wrong places, they can be re-profiled and fitted with bulleted guides, which improves them nicely, the inlet manifold is even bigger at the head face, so big that the air coming down the inlet tract hits the face of the head, this causes reversal and all sorts of problems, so a new inlet manifold is needed, the trumpet base needs swapping for a 45mm type, and throw those horrible exhaust tubes away!!, and then top off with a minimum of a 72mm plenum, if budget permits have a look at the carbon offerings from act, my preference is the tripple he does. These also suffer from the exhaust port in the head being bigger than the exhaust manifold, again this needs sorting and can easily be done with a dremmel or similar tool, this alone will release around 10hp.
Sorry other stuff to do i will continue later and edit
Really helpful, thanks. If you are going to tune a RV8 in stages would it be a good idea to start by fitting a modern engine management system first? I am not sure that the TVR Power MBE system at £3,000 in VAT fitted, would give you the best bang for your buck, but could a good system give you more real world power than head work for example on a 4 litre? Lets start with the 4.0, 2 derivities the standard and the hc, the hc stands for high lift cam, the non hc is a standard range rover engine running 9.35-1 cr, all tvr did was fit a tvr 51 camshaft, fit double valve springs and machine the spring seats and cut the guides down to allow a slightly higer lift cam, thats it in a nut shell they obviously used there own ecu chips as in all other tvr cars, a genuine power output on a proper engine dyno is just over 200 hp.
The hc ran the same short engine again 9.35-1, however they upgraded to the tvr 435 cam which is basically a kent 214 with an extended lca to 116, they also came with pocketed pistons to allow for the londer duration cam, other than that same as the non hc, power was around 215hp
Onto the 4.5, again came in 2 derivities hc and non hc, non hc was the same as the 4.0 but you got 600cc more capacity, again 9.35-1 standard heads etc..., the hc in this model came with the tvr 435 cam but was also fitted with the larger valves from the 500 engine, the valve throats where also enlarged and blended but the rest of the head was not ported, again both where fitted with double valve springs and there own ecu chip, non hc made 210hp hc made 230hp
Onto the 5.0, ok this is a completely different story, they threw the standard rover engine away and started putting all there own stuff inside, the crank was a newly cast 90mm stroke, the connecting rods where a newly cast 5.5 inch, the pistons they kept as range rover using them from a low compression 4.2, they machined the bottoms off to miss the counterweights on the crank, cam was the same as the previous hc models the tvr 435, the heads where hugely ported all the way through, fitted with the larger valves and douple valve springs, the inlet manifold was ported both ends to match the heads and the larger trumpet base fitted, compresion was also increased to 10.2-1, power of the engines was 275hp.
So to sum things up tvr have gone from an almost stock 4.0 to there own tuned 5.0 and only gained around 65hp is that enough? well you also need to remember what the torque these engines also produce, as a rule of thumb with the rover engine you can use a 10ftlb increase in every 100cc capacity increase, and torque is what will make your car feel quick upto the point where bhp takes over 5250 rpm, so a 5.0 has 100ftlb more than a 4.0, hmm not quite but our tuned engines do, even so the 500 has gobfulls more than the 4.0.
Tuning them, and i will try and put one thing to bed here, long stroke cranks dont rev?? utter b
ks, a 5.0 can be made just as responsive as a 4.0, it is the internall weight you are moving, again rev limits are dependent on your components not the size of the crank, i have a 351 windsor with a 102 mm crank and rev that to 6500, my old 5.5 rover engines 94mm crank i built some of them where built as race cars and they reved to 7500 rpm, so yes big engine can quite happily rev, (look at nascar engines!!)TUNING all n/a
This is allways going to boil down to how deep your pockets are, and your intended goals, if you want 500hp but have a budget of £1000 this is not going to happen so i will try and explain your best bang per buck.
Starting with the 4.0 your best performance increase is going to come from upgrading to a 4.6 short engine, even if you keep all your original heads and cam, induction etc..., increase the compresion ratio at the same time and you will instantly have a 50ftlb increase with the same driveabillty, and a small increase in hp,next on the cards would be a decent set of cylinder heads and then the camshaft, after this start looking at the induction side of things, polished ported manifold large plenum etc..., going this route you will basically end up with something like a stage 3 4.6, these generally make around 300hp if you start with the induction side of things you are not going to really notice any gains, if you want to stay with 4.0 short engine then really heads and a cam change would be my first port of call, this will release around 40-50hp.
The 4.5 is a very good basis to start from, again you can upgrade to a larger engine depending on your budget but lets stay with the 4.6 engine, as like the 4.0 the heads are first port of call, stage 3 heads and cam first, then do all the induction side of things, the heads will release around 40hp on a non hc and around 25 on an hc, cam another 20, add to that your induction mods ported inlet/45mm trumpet base and large plenum and you release another 20, all good gains and worthwhile gains, like i said on the 4.0 engine, if you were to put your induction mods on first you will see around 10hp if you are lucky, thats because the standard engine as a package doesnt need big plenums etc..
The 5.0 is a bit different in aspects of tuning, its not really tuning and making things bigger as such, but rectifying the faults, if you have a problem with your engine that means it needs a rebuild then it is definetly worth getting the engine internally balanced, the balance on these engines was shocking, if you ever see a flywheel or a front pulley it looks swiss cheese on one side!, this also is one of the resulting problems of the cranks snapping, more so on the small journal blocks, (factory 500 cross bolted blocks ran a stronger crank), if you are just looking at tuning and tweaking then really it is, cam change, induction mods etc..., the standard cylinder heads have huge ports, too big IMHO, but more so in the wrong places, they can be re-profiled and fitted with bulleted guides, which improves them nicely, the inlet manifold is even bigger at the head face, so big that the air coming down the inlet tract hits the face of the head, this causes reversal and all sorts of problems, so a new inlet manifold is needed, the trumpet base needs swapping for a 45mm type, and throw those horrible exhaust tubes away!!, and then top off with a minimum of a 72mm plenum, if budget permits have a look at the carbon offerings from act, my preference is the tripple he does. These also suffer from the exhaust port in the head being bigger than the exhaust manifold, again this needs sorting and can easily be done with a dremmel or similar tool, this alone will release around 10hp.
Sorry other stuff to do i will continue later and edit
Edited by v8 racing on Friday 19th April 19:12
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