New TVR update
Discussion
tvrolet said:
stuff
I'm no techie, but I think the fact that a finished monocoque takes under two minutes to create will make a hell of a difference to production costs.As I mentioned in an earlier post, GM told me they intended a 'family' of models for the new TVR. Starting with a V8.
Air Con, usual toys you'd find in rivals etc... and room for golf clubs (!) essential if they wanted any sort of volume sales.
I saw him on Boxing day, but we were doing more drinking than car talking!
DonkeyApple said:
This is what iStream has turned out for the Yamaha car:
How do you produce that in 'one or two minutes' ???Don't you need an autoclave for that for it to be structurally strong and provide crash protection ???
As regards the looks of the new car, or rather the rendered guess by Autocar, I still don't like the rear three-quarter bit, and I imagine I won't like the back end - if only we could see it - and I think the Typhon looks great from some angles, but not side on - too long - or the rear - too much plain body work with a few tiny lights... Car looks are sooooooo very subjective.....
Having just watched Goodwood Supercars on the telly, I think the Noble M600 is a great looking car, and, with no ABS, no TC, great handling, enough BHP, and a consequently light package, it seems like a pretty stunning car, plus it beat ALL the hypercars up the hill.
.
.
|http://thumbsnap.com/VP0SIBtm[/url].
Could be better at the back... And obviously a hideous amount of money, which I can't see how they can justify (even tho entirely hand made), or sell many at that price, but if TVR can come back with what LE says the new TVR will be, but looking anything like that, and in the sensible price bracket - £60k-£80k - I'll be very very happy I put my deposit down[url]
GetCarter said:
tvrolet said:
stuff
I'm no techie, but I think the fact that a finished monocoque takes under two minutes to create will make a hell of a difference to production costs.As I mentioned in an earlier post, GM told me they intended a 'family' of models for the new TVR. Starting with a V8.
Air Con, usual toys you'd find in rivals etc... and room for golf clubs (!) essential if they wanted any sort of volume sales.
I saw him on Boxing day, but we were doing more drinking than car talking!
there is no way the finished monocoque, as shown in the Yamaha picture below, would be completed in 2 minutes. I actually think the 2 minutes is for the laying up and producing the composit panels, per panel, on some kind of automated stamping/autoclave machine. As already said there's the steel frame it all hangs off to manufacture first. Whilst it will undoubtedly be a quicker production process than for previous generations of TVRs, it is not going to done in a matter of minutes.
I would also like to understand what protection scheme is going on to the steel frame, or at least what the quality of the steel is as once the composit panels are bonded on there's no way is coming apart for de rusting, ala TVRs of old.
HarryW said:
Perhaps too much drinking was had there is no way the finished monocoque, as shown in the Yamaha picture below, would be completed in 2 minutes. I actually think the 2 minutes is for the laying up and producing the composit panels, per panel, on some kind of automated stamping/autoclave machine. As already said there's the steel frame it all hangs off to manufacture first.
Whilst it will undoubtedly be a quicker production process than for previous generations of TVRs, it is not going to done in a matter of minutes.
I would also like to understand what protection scheme is going on to the steel frame, or at least what the quality of the steel is as once the composit panels are bonded on there's no way is coming apart for de rusting, ala TVRs of old.
Just quoting GM website: iStream (carbon) is a fully mechanised system with a cycle time of just 100 seconds. there is no way the finished monocoque, as shown in the Yamaha picture below, would be completed in 2 minutes. I actually think the 2 minutes is for the laying up and producing the composit panels, per panel, on some kind of automated stamping/autoclave machine. As already said there's the steel frame it all hangs off to manufacture first. Whilst it will undoubtedly be a quicker production process than for previous generations of TVRs, it is not going to done in a matter of minutes.
I would also like to understand what protection scheme is going on to the steel frame, or at least what the quality of the steel is as once the composit panels are bonded on there's no way is coming apart for de rusting, ala TVRs of old.
Happy to be wrong... as I say, I'm no techie!
Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 31st December 15:11
TVRMs said:
That reads like huge up front investment.
I see less of of a viable business the more I read.
I very much got the impression that it was the exact opposite, hence why chosen. I suspect that GM is absorbing a chunk of the set up costs to get the deal done. After all, however great he is, this system is unproven so you wouldn't be rushing to pay up front for delivery. He also may be one of the 8/9 other shareholders?I see less of of a viable business the more I read.
DonkeyApple said:
I very much got the impression that it was the exact opposite, hence why chosen. I suspect that GM is absorbing a chunk of the set up costs to get the deal done. After all, however great he is, this system is unproven so you wouldn't be rushing to pay up front for delivery. He also may be one of the 8/9 other shareholders?
I can't comment on that, but last time he mentioned, he had over 30 of his people working on the TVR job. That's a chunk of money!GetCarter said:
HarryW said:
Perhaps too much drinking was had there is no way the finished monocoque, as shown in the Yamaha picture below, would be completed in 2 minutes. I actually think the 2 minutes is for the laying up and producing the composit panels, per panel, on some kind of automated stamping/autoclave machine. As already said there's the steel frame it all hangs off to manufacture first.
Whilst it will undoubtedly be a quicker production process than for previous generations of TVRs, it is not going to done in a matter of minutes.
I would also like to understand what protection scheme is going on to the steel frame, or at least what the quality of the steel is as once the composit panels are bonded on there's no way is coming apart for de rusting, ala TVRs of old.
Just quoting GM website: iStream (carbon) is a fully mechanised system with a cycle time of just 100 seconds. there is no way the finished monocoque, as shown in the Yamaha picture below, would be completed in 2 minutes. I actually think the 2 minutes is for the laying up and producing the composit panels, per panel, on some kind of automated stamping/autoclave machine. As already said there's the steel frame it all hangs off to manufacture first. Whilst it will undoubtedly be a quicker production process than for previous generations of TVRs, it is not going to done in a matter of minutes.
I would also like to understand what protection scheme is going on to the steel frame, or at least what the quality of the steel is as once the composit panels are bonded on there's no way is coming apart for de rusting, ala TVRs of old.
Happy to be wrong... as I say, I'm no techie!
Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 31st December 15:11
Be good to see the TVR iframe as all the ones shown to date have either been FWD or RWD with a rear mounted engine. No front engine RWD with the associated tunnel. Might even look like a convention TVR ladder chassis once complete....
GetCarter said:
DonkeyApple said:
I very much got the impression that it was the exact opposite, hence why chosen. I suspect that GM is absorbing a chunk of the set up costs to get the deal done. After all, however great he is, this system is unproven so you wouldn't be rushing to pay up front for delivery. He also may be one of the 8/9 other shareholders?
I can't comment on that, but last time he mentioned, he had over 30 of his people working on the TVR job. That's a chunk of money!That iStream Carbon process is actually just a modern and 'productionised' version of what TVR did with the T400/T440 cars which was conventional spaceframe clad in a two piece carbon sandwich top and bottom which then had the body bonded on top. I worked with the lead engineering designer on a project and he has some pretty forward thinking, indeed he wanted to go further on the T400/T440 but Peter wouldn't let him fully implement his ideas. Pity.
I saw an engineering drawing of that Yamaha concept that was posted on the GM site when the press release first came out but it was taken down rather quickly.
it doesn't seem all that complex or expensive to implement just some accurate jigs which don't cost the earth to hold the panels in place while they bond. The principle is the same no matter where the engine is located, the tunnel then becomes a structural element.
I saw an engineering drawing of that Yamaha concept that was posted on the GM site when the press release first came out but it was taken down rather quickly.
it doesn't seem all that complex or expensive to implement just some accurate jigs which don't cost the earth to hold the panels in place while they bond. The principle is the same no matter where the engine is located, the tunnel then becomes a structural element.Edited by V8 GRF on Thursday 31st December 18:31
V8 GRF said:
That iStream Carbon process is actually just a modern and 'productionised' version of what TVR did with the T400/T440 cars which was conventional spaceframe clad in a two piece carbon sandwich top and bottom which then had the body bonded on top. I worked with the lead engineering designer on a project and he has some pretty forward thinking, indeed he wanted to go further on the T400/T440 but Peter wouldn't let him fully implement his ideas. Pity.
I saw an engineering drawing of that Yamaha concept that was posted on the GM site when the press release first came out but it was taken down rather quickly. it doesn't seem all that complex or expensive to implement just some accurate jigs which don't cost the earth to hold the panels in place while they bond. The principle is the same no matter where the engine is located, the tunnel then becomes a structural element.
Read on the GMD site that the bonding glue/resin allows for up to 3mm of filling, which to my mind is actually quite slack. The area I work in works primary installation tolerances measured in seconds of arc over many metres which can equate to sub tenths of millimetres. I suppose having coarse threaded adjustment on the resultant suspension components compensates for the odd 3mm here and there. In the chassis.....I saw an engineering drawing of that Yamaha concept that was posted on the GM site when the press release first came out but it was taken down rather quickly.
it doesn't seem all that complex or expensive to implement just some accurate jigs which don't cost the earth to hold the panels in place while they bond. The principle is the same no matter where the engine is located, the tunnel then becomes a structural element.Edited by V8 GRF on Thursday 31st December 18:31
V8 GRF said:
That iStream Carbon process is actually just a modern and 'productionised' version of what TVR did with the T400/T440 cars which was conventional spaceframe clad in a two piece carbon sandwich top and bottom which then had the body bonded on top. I worked with the lead engineering designer on a project and he has some pretty forward thinking, indeed he wanted to go further on the T400/T440 but Peter wouldn't let him fully implement his ideas. Pity.
I saw an engineering drawing of that Yamaha concept that was posted on the GM site when the press release first came out but it was taken down rather quickly. it doesn't seem all that complex or expensive to implement just some accurate jigs which don't cost the earth to hold the panels in place while they bond. The principle is the same no matter where the engine is located, the tunnel then becomes a structural element.
T400/T440s cost around 150k per car to build, maybe that's why the lead designers ideas never came to fruition.I saw an engineering drawing of that Yamaha concept that was posted on the GM site when the press release first came out but it was taken down rather quickly.
it doesn't seem all that complex or expensive to implement just some accurate jigs which don't cost the earth to hold the panels in place while they bond. The principle is the same no matter where the engine is located, the tunnel then becomes a structural element.Edited by V8 GRF on Thursday 31st December 18:31
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 31st December 20:21
HarryW said:
GetCarter said:
DonkeyApple said:
I very much got the impression that it was the exact opposite, hence why chosen. I suspect that GM is absorbing a chunk of the set up costs to get the deal done. After all, however great he is, this system is unproven so you wouldn't be rushing to pay up front for delivery. He also may be one of the 8/9 other shareholders?
I can't comment on that, but last time he mentioned, he had over 30 of his people working on the TVR job. That's a chunk of money!TVRMs said:
V8 GRF said:
That iStream Carbon process is actually just a modern and 'productionised' version of what TVR.... <snip>
T400/T440s cost around 150k per car to build, maybe that's why the lead designers ideas never came to fruition. I can assure you his ideas, if they had been properly embraced, would have prevented such ridiculous unit costs.As we all know TVR never invested in modern technology or systems and muddled through with their antiquated processes which as mentioned elsewhere were overly labour intensive, this allied with a complete lack of management lead to uncontrolled processes and costs.
Ask Trevor next time you're in S&D he'll agree.
V8 GRF said:
They obviously didn't make the connection. I spotted the initial GMD/Yamaha press release, did the research, asked Les about it and we ran it in Sprint last month
The key being that you went to find the story, rather than waiting for the story to be emailed over to you, completed, from Germany. 
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