New TVR still under wraps!
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
It’s NA so won’t have anywhere near the overall torque delivery through its range. This will make it slower.
It’s 2wd so will have less grip off the line. This will make it slower.
It won’t have the most amazing computers out there to manage, control and optimise everything. This will make it slower.
It has a manual gearbox. This will make it slower.
The engine isn’t over the driven wheels. This will make it slower.
To many people being slower is a terrible thing. How could you walk out in public? The shame is unbearable.
To others it’s how it drives and how it makes you feel that is important.
All of our TVRs can be beaten by modern supercars,,by many modern sports cars and some hatchbacks, SUVs and saloons. The power that they have is applied far more efficiently than we can ever apply in our cars. But does that make us want to go and buy a 4 pot Boxster, a Nissan GTR or a 458? Not really. My wife doesn’t want a convertible sports car, I don’t live on a council estate and I’m not a smarmy shyster.
I’m sure the majority of consumers will find these metrics very important but I look at my own industry where every firm uses social media to attract clients, where everyone talks about the old ways of doing business being dead and that everything has to be done through social media or your business will die. I can’t afford to spend tens of million GBP per year on social media to attract new clients. I do so the old fashioned way of talking to people and meeting people. There are people who like to put a face to the person who would be responsible for some of their hard earned money. I have the highest conversion rates in the industry by a mile, the highest deposit rates and strongest retention rates. I won’t ever be able to grow my business to global heights but even with a product that can’t better the multinationals’ products I have a good business.
We have much in common DA..It’s 2wd so will have less grip off the line. This will make it slower.
It won’t have the most amazing computers out there to manage, control and optimise everything. This will make it slower.
It has a manual gearbox. This will make it slower.
The engine isn’t over the driven wheels. This will make it slower.
To many people being slower is a terrible thing. How could you walk out in public? The shame is unbearable.
To others it’s how it drives and how it makes you feel that is important.
All of our TVRs can be beaten by modern supercars,,by many modern sports cars and some hatchbacks, SUVs and saloons. The power that they have is applied far more efficiently than we can ever apply in our cars. But does that make us want to go and buy a 4 pot Boxster, a Nissan GTR or a 458? Not really. My wife doesn’t want a convertible sports car, I don’t live on a council estate and I’m not a smarmy shyster.
I’m sure the majority of consumers will find these metrics very important but I look at my own industry where every firm uses social media to attract clients, where everyone talks about the old ways of doing business being dead and that everything has to be done through social media or your business will die. I can’t afford to spend tens of million GBP per year on social media to attract new clients. I do so the old fashioned way of talking to people and meeting people. There are people who like to put a face to the person who would be responsible for some of their hard earned money. I have the highest conversion rates in the industry by a mile, the highest deposit rates and strongest retention rates. I won’t ever be able to grow my business to global heights but even with a product that can’t better the multinationals’ products I have a good business.
Solid ‘old~school’ ethics with the ability to communicate face to face.
I’d like to hope n believe the Griff emulates this stance.
So far, for me..it does.
Cosworth have supplied a lot of the engine~management for the Rebellion LMP~1 car..thus I’m not so sure that this thing is gonna be ‘slow’...there’s a lot of trickery in there..and I applaud Les for wanting to learn what it takes to be successful at endurance racing. TVR’s past image of breaking down / falling apart at the seams has to be quashed outright. Only ‘bullet~proof’ reliability will suffice...
m4tti said:
plfrench said:
I think the point being missed in this discussion is the difference between forced and N/A power curves... it's all about the area under the torque and power curves and not just the peak power which is what is being discussed.
An N/A car such as the Griffith will be making its peak power and more importantly torque at just that... a peak. A few hundred rpm either side of this will see a significant reduction in figures. Turbo charged cars will have a much flatter plateau on both power and torque curves meaning simply that more performance is available more of the time.
This is how two cars with the same peak power can have significantly different real world performance and also goes some way to explaining why simple power (peak)-to-weight figures are no longer as useful an indicator of acceleration which naturally occurs across a range of engine speeds even with a very close ratio gearbox.
This is an interesting point. To an extent though Audi have brought that linear torque to things like the q7 with the motorised turbo concept An N/A car such as the Griffith will be making its peak power and more importantly torque at just that... a peak. A few hundred rpm either side of this will see a significant reduction in figures. Turbo charged cars will have a much flatter plateau on both power and torque curves meaning simply that more performance is available more of the time.
This is how two cars with the same peak power can have significantly different real world performance and also goes some way to explaining why simple power (peak)-to-weight figures are no longer as useful an indicator of acceleration which naturally occurs across a range of engine speeds even with a very close ratio gearbox.
Porsche say the torque of the turbo is fairly linear from 2250 rpm. So that torque is available early all the way through.
swisstoni said:
Can I just ask; why are you actually on this thread?
Many wonder this....Cause trouble? Repeat what they heard down the pub / read online? Who knows... I get the distinct feeling they actually hate TVR and really, really want it to fail... As soon as I see comments with a few names on it I generally skip them now, cos its only going to be pointless audi fanboy drivel.swisstoni said:
Can I just ask; why are you actually on this thread?
Uhh because I was very keen on buying said car.. just couldn’t get past the face. I also like grounded and realistic expectations, and some of the expectations here fascinate me.You?
Edited by m4tti on Saturday 16th June 10:31
m4tti said:
swisstoni said:
Can I just ask; why are you actually on this thread?
Uhh because I was very keen on buying said car.. just couldn’t get past the face. I also like grounded and realistic expectations, and some of the expectations here fascinate me.You?
Edited by m4tti on Saturday 16th June 10:31
I personally wouldn’t have hung around after I decided I didn’t like the car. But that’s just me.
I’m here because I have owned several of the cars and would like to see TVR become a living company again.
T4NGO said:
swisstoni said:
Can I just ask; why are you actually on this thread?
Many wonder this....Cause trouble? Repeat what they heard down the pub / read online? Who knows... I get the distinct feeling they actually hate TVR and really, really want it to fail... As soon as I see comments with a few names on it I generally skip them now, cos its only going to be pointless audi fanboy drivel.As I said in my later comment, I much prefer the TVR to the Aston or in fact pretty much any other car out there and really want it to go well. The rawness and relative simplicity of the new TVR is something I very much appreciate and, for me, the true continuation of the brand.
plfrench said:
I think the point being missed in this discussion is the difference between forced and N/A power curves... it's all about the area under the torque and power curves and not just the peak power which is what is being discussed.
An N/A car such as the Griffith will be making its peak power and more importantly torque at just that... a peak. A few hundred rpm either side of this will see a significant reduction in figures. Turbo charged cars will have a much flatter plateau on both power and torque curves meaning simply that more performance is available more of the time.
This is how two cars with the same peak power can have significantly different real world performance and also goes some way to explaining why simple power (peak)-to-weight figures are no longer as useful an indicator of acceleration which naturally occurs across a range of engine speeds even with a very close ratio gearbox.
Just for the sake of clarity, and not wanting to be argumentative, i should point out that N/A engines are effectively constant TORQUE devices and modern Turbo engines closer to constant POWER devices! An N/A car such as the Griffith will be making its peak power and more importantly torque at just that... a peak. A few hundred rpm either side of this will see a significant reduction in figures. Turbo charged cars will have a much flatter plateau on both power and torque curves meaning simply that more performance is available more of the time.
This is how two cars with the same peak power can have significantly different real world performance and also goes some way to explaining why simple power (peak)-to-weight figures are no longer as useful an indicator of acceleration which naturally occurs across a range of engine speeds even with a very close ratio gearbox.
Torque is the turning force created by the engine, irrespective of how fast it is actually turning. Because turning force comes from cylinder pressure, and cylinder pressure from air and fuel being burnt, and for an N/A engine that air & fuel 'charge" is relatively fixed as a maximum (because the air is pushed into the cylinders by atmospheric pressure alone) an N/A engine has a broadly flat torque output across it's effective rev range.
For a forced induction engine, it's torque output at any given speed simply depends on how much charge you can ram into the cylinders. Modern engines are strong, and can take massive pressures, meaning that as engine speed falls, more torque can be made (i'm not going to go into the complex interrelations between burn rates, boosting system efficiency and flow losses here!). This "torque back-up) effectively means the engine can make closer to max power at lower engine speeds than an N/A engine.
Snakes said:
A couple of short videos of Les arriving at Le Mans with the Griffith which give a better indication of how it will sound as Les gives it some beans!
https://www.facebook.com/tvrauto/videos/6137301556...
and
https://www.facebook.com/speedmatters/videos/10155...
Jesus.https://www.facebook.com/tvrauto/videos/6137301556...
and
https://www.facebook.com/speedmatters/videos/10155...
Sounds like a misfiring Ferguson on an iPhone.
1. It may be a sticker but it’s a start and currently third in class with everything to play for. Doing a lot better than AM who are third from last in their class. I’ll put a photo up from Mulsanne later.
2. Re colours - can no one just use a bit of imagination? ‘What does white look like’ - err like red but f
king white instead. There you go. Sorted.
2. Re colours - can no one just use a bit of imagination? ‘What does white look like’ - err like red but f
king white instead. There you go. Sorted.Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 16th June 16:36
m4tti said:
...I also like grounded and realistic expectations, and some of the expectations here fascinate me.
...]
Until I had a few journeys in a Nissan GTR I must admit I didn't quite 'get' them....]
But now, it is fairly straightforward to say...
A heavier car that has been properly engineered has lower relative unsprung weight which helps on bumpier roads.
A wider car has relatively less weight transfer too which means the suspension can be softer.
This and all the stuff from DA with regards to transmission etc.
So the result is a car that just puts down maximum power without drama or delay and a chassis that wafts along bumpy roads rapidly fuss free.
During the time I would tinker with acceleration software for dbv8/DangerousDerek in the past I'd change 'stock' car settings to experiment and remember that a Veyron would not be quicker to 100mph vs an old F1 if you factor out 4WD and the fast gearchanges.
This new TVR is going to be simple and 'pure', and these need to be used to its advantage. It has already been said that the 400bhp/ton figure is only going to be fully relevant on a track.
Who would be interested in giving a 10 year old Aston a thrash around a track without worrying about the mechanical risk or even wear on brakes and tyres? For this new TVR the simple mechanicals should prove an asset as cars age...
RichardD said:
Until I had a few journeys in a Nissan GTR I must admit I didn't quite 'get' them.
But now, it is fairly straightforward to say...
A heavier car that has been properly engineered has lower relative unsprung weight which helps on bumpier roads.
A wider car has relatively less weight transfer too which means the suspension can be softer.
This and all the stuff from DA with regards to transmission etc.
So the result is a car that just puts down maximum power without drama or delay and a chassis that wafts along bumpy roads rapidly fuss free.
This is a very good summary and exactly what I’ve experienced driving Gallardo/R8 v10 And Porsche turbo. The additional weight in the correct package translates to a faster road car. But now, it is fairly straightforward to say...
A heavier car that has been properly engineered has lower relative unsprung weight which helps on bumpier roads.
A wider car has relatively less weight transfer too which means the suspension can be softer.
This and all the stuff from DA with regards to transmission etc.
So the result is a car that just puts down maximum power without drama or delay and a chassis that wafts along bumpy roads rapidly fuss free.
The rate at which you can cover bumpy back roads is astonishing compared to the last generation of TVRs.
V6 Pushfit said:
The first photo on PH of a TVR badge in international competition in the last decade. Possibly.
yajeed said:
Maybe so. It’s too light though, as soon as it crosses on to the road part of the circuit, it’ll have to slow to walking pace or will end up upside down in a ditch. What’s certain is that the GT Porsches will fly past.
Interesting theory. However the Porsches are in a different class and overall Rebellion are 4th and 5th with the first Porsche at 26th.Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 16th June 21:26
yajeed said:
Maybe so. It’s too light though, as soon as it crosses on to the road part of the circuit, it’ll have to slow to walking pace or will end up upside down in a ditch. What’s certain is that the GT Porsches will fly past.
Luckily it’s running a ton of down force.... literally. themee said:
Great video! I'm sure there's at least a couple of laps on there, but somehow I must have missed the road sections as I didn't see him slow down to avoid the ditches and I didn't see him get passed by any Porsches... 
Maybe I slightly overestimated the effect of Matt’s compelling recipe of what makes a quick car. Mind you, imagine if they hadn’t carelessly misplaced that 70kg of weight this year; if they were carrying a few more sandbags they’d be right up there challenging Toyota.
In fact, the expert commentators on Eurosport, while not mentioning Matt specifically, did agree with him in saying that BMWs use of sandbags had given them a distinct advantage...
Colin Chapman and Gordon Murray, bloody amateurs..
In fact, the expert commentators on Eurosport, while not mentioning Matt specifically, did agree with him in saying that BMWs use of sandbags had given them a distinct advantage...
Colin Chapman and Gordon Murray, bloody amateurs..
Edited by yajeed on Saturday 16th June 21:44
yajeed said:
Maybe I slightly overestimated the effect of Matt’s compelling recipe of what makes a quick car. Mind you, imagine if they hadn’t carelessly misplaced that 70kg of weight this year; if they were carrying a few more sandbags they’d be right up there challenging Toyota.
In fact, the expert commentators on Eurosport, while not mentioning Matt specifically, did agree with him in saying that BMWs use of sandbags had given them a distinct advantage...
Thanks for your input. Much appreciated. In fact, the expert commentators on Eurosport, while not mentioning Matt specifically, did agree with him in saying that BMWs use of sandbags had given them a distinct advantage...
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