New TVR still under wraps!

[bullittmcqueen]

bertie said:

bullittmcqueen said:

I don't think they'll revolutionize the industry, but the car (granted the only one) is not a mock-up. While not being built with production tooling and mass-produced parts, i guess it's as close to the finished product as you can get at this stage. I looked at it in detail for longer than an hour (it sure has my fingerprints still on it ) and it looked remarkably good quality-wise.

While GM Design is not the largest of companies, bringing vehicles from concept to production is their core business. And their focus is on compliance with regulations, specs, safety and regulatory requirements, not leaving production aspects aside. Also there have been mules, testing, simulations etc. all over. I am not sure this can be said of the TVRs of old.

I very carefully said it was a functioning prototype, not a mock-up.

As close as you can get at this stage... it’s certainly the first step, but there’s been no or next to no progress. Where are the next 4 testing cars?

As for bringing cars to market being GM core business, just remind me what they’ve got in production I can go and buy?

I think they went pretty far to make it as close to the final product as they could possibly make it. Yeah, more cars would have been good, guess it was more business-related than technical.

GM is making annual 12+ Mio turnover, mostly profitable (albeit not 2018) and has some 50+ employees. They've been doing this for a while, so there must be someone paying them, and i'm sure they're not getting the money for free. It's consulting not production, so there's little you can actually buy with their name on it.

[bullittmcqueen]

phazed said:

Actually..............there seems to be two cars.

Pulled up a little earlier outside their office. There is this wrapped white one on the right and out of site on the left is the red car.



BTW, the office is named Griffith House

It's a cunning plan that they are using an old CRV as a mule. Who would notice?

It's the prototype from the private reveal. They wrapped and polished it. It was shown alongside the one true car in Goodwood.

[BJWoods]

bullittmcqueen said:

It's the prototype from the private reveal. They wrapped and polished it. It was shown alongside the one true car in Goodwood.

That is not a prototype, it is a styling exercise. Just clay!,

[bullittmcqueen]

BJWoods said:

bullittmcqueen said:

It's the prototype from the private reveal. They wrapped and polished it. It was shown alongside the one true car in Goodwood.

That is not a prototype, it is a styling exercise. Just clay!,

You're right, prototype was the wrong word, i wanted to say that it was the rewrapped thing shown at the depositors reveal.

[RichB]

BJWoods said:

bullittmcqueen said:

It's the prototype from the private reveal. They wrapped and polished it. It was shown alongside the one true car in Goodwood.

That is not a prototype, it is a styling exercise. Just clay!,

So they've got a Trident in there too?

[anonymous-user]

They used to be at least semi active in releasing video of the car tearing and going to shows etc in different places but nothing’s happened for weeks now.

Last time was at that show in Amsterdam and that was all static.

Last video they released of it driving was months ago.

All the recent footage has been from Xbox games.

[bertie]

bullittmcqueen said:

I think they went pretty far to make it as close to the final product as they could possibly make it. Yeah, more cars would have been good, guess it was more business-related than technical.

GM is making annual 12+ Mio turnover, mostly profitable (albeit not 2018) and has some 50+ employees. They've been doing this for a while, so there must be someone paying them, and i'm sure they're not getting the money for free. It's consulting not production, so there's little you can actually buy with their name on it.

I’m not doubting GM design abilities or their ability as a design and engineering consultancy, however you said “..bringing vehicles from concept to production is their core business.” so I’m still interested to see examples of this?

I really really wish them well and dearly hope they pull it of as I love TVR.

But they’re a million miles off and don’t seem to be moving at all

Edited by bertie on Thursday 21st March 23:32

[bullittmcqueen]

bertie said:

bullittmcqueen said:

I think they went pretty far to make it as close to the final product as they could possibly make it. Yeah, more cars would have been good, guess it was more business-related than technical.

GM is making annual 12+ Mio turnover, mostly profitable (albeit not 2018) and has some 50+ employees. They've been doing this for a while, so there must be someone paying them, and i'm sure they're not getting the money for free. It's consulting not production, so there's little you can actually buy with their name on it.

I’m not doubting GM design abilities or their ability as a design and engineering consultancy, however you said “..bringing vehicles from concept to production is their core business.” so I’m still interested to see examples of this?

I really really wish them well and dearly hope they pull it of as I love TVR.

But they’re a million miles off and don’t seem to be moving at all

Edited by bertie on Thursday 21st March 23:32

I was quoting www.gordonmurraydesign.com, see services. From what i see on their webpage, and that's all i can rely on, it seems to be a good fit. Besides that, someone is paying them 12 Mio GBP, they got 50+ employees and the name Gordon Murray has some sort of reputation for faster cars. Seems legit to me. I know that progress has not been really visible over recent times but that does not mean there has been none. And, after a really long time without any news, things seem to pick up speed (see Richards posts on their official facebook page) and there will be verifiable progress in the coming month (or not, either way we'll know).

But what exactly do you mean by a million miles off ?

[bertie]

bullittmcqueen said:

I was quoting www.gordonmurraydesign.com, see services. From what i see on their webpage, and that's all i can rely on, it seems to be a good fit. Besides that, someone is paying them 12 Mio GBP, they got 50+ employees and the name Gordon Murray has some sort of reputation for faster cars. Seems legit to me. I know that progress has not been really visible over recent times but that does not mean there has been none. And, after a really long time without any news, things seem to pick up speed (see Richards posts on their official facebook page) and there will be verifiable progress in the coming month (or not, either way we'll know).

But what exactly do you mean by a million miles off ?

I admire your faith, I genuinely do., and I’ll be very happy to be wrong.

[bullittmcqueen]

bertie said:

I admire your faith, I genuinely do., and I’ll be very happy to be wrong.

bertie, don't worry, i'm not a faith guy and draw my conclusions from the facts i know, the motivation of stakeholders, applicable constraints and throw in a set of probabilities. In this particular case, i admit, a bit of hope is involved, as i truly want the car for lack of viable alternatives.

But i'd really like to know why you think they're a million miles off ?

[bertie]

bullittmcqueen said:

bertie, don't worry, i'm not a faith guy and draw my conclusions from the facts i know, the motivation of stakeholders, applicable constraints and throw in a set of probabilities. In this particular case, i admit, a bit of hope is involved, as i truly want the car for lack of viable alternatives.

But i'd really like to know why you think they're a million miles off ?

As I said before, I’ve been involved as a component engineering and supply business in a lot of car programs and I know something of the engineering process involved in bringing a vehicle to market.

In my opinion, given they’ve made one working prototype, it leaves a colossal amount of development, engineering and testing to do before they’ve got a finished product.

[BJWoods]

bertie said:

As I said before, I’ve been involved as a component engineering and supply business in a lot of car programs and I know something of the engineering process involved in bringing a vehicle to market.

In my opinion, given they’ve made one working prototype, it leaves a colossal amount of development, engineering and testing to do before they’ve got a finished product.

why colossal..

Small pilot production of three-4 cars, for further testing/dev/one for crash testing, etc

How many dev cars did the McLaren F1 have- Half a dozen? nearly 30 years on. so much now will have been modelled, simulated, GMD do know what they are doing.

[bertie]

BJWoods said:

why colossal..

Small pilot production of three-4 cars, for further testing/dev/one for crash testing, etc

How many dev cars did the McLaren F1 have- Half a dozen? nearly 30 years on. so much now will have been modelled, simulated, GMD do know what they are doing.

Your assuming that one car, the first ever iteration, is the finished design.

If they’ve managed to get it right first time and engineered it as a legislative compliant finished product, not a show car, that’s mighty impressive.

That’s not the experience I’ve had elsewhere with other OEMs

If however they’ve done that, you’d surely register the car and be out there on the road racking up the test miles?

My unfortunate conclusion is that it’s not legislative compliant and can’t be road registered.

I would be delighted to be wrong but they’re my personal conclusions

Edited by bertie on Friday 22 March 09:50

[Monkeylegend]

BJWoods said:

bertie said:

As I said before, I’ve been involved as a component engineering and supply business in a lot of car programs and I know something of the engineering process involved in bringing a vehicle to market.

In my opinion, given they’ve made one working prototype, it leaves a colossal amount of development, engineering and testing to do before they’ve got a finished product.

why colossal..

Small pilot production of three-4 cars, for further testing/dev/one for crash testing, etc

How many dev cars did the McLaren F1 have- Half a dozen? nearly 30 years on. so much now will have been modelled, simulated, GMD do know what they are doing.

That all sounds good, but on what timescale to properly develop a car that needs to be right from the outset. This to be done properly, assuming they have sourced all the parts could easily take us well into next year at the earliest before the car is production ready.

Any hint of reliability or quality issues leads us back to TVR of the early millennium, and we all know how that ended even with a range of desirable cars.

How will this be funded with no sales income, in addition to the need to develop the next generation car at the same time in order to have a longer term sustainable business. We already think the current car, if it arrives , will be yesterdays technology in a car world that is changing way to fast for the likes of TVR as they currently exist.

[BJWoods]

Monkeylegend said:

That all sounds good, but on what timescale to properly develop a car that needs to be right from the outset. This to be done properly, assuming they have sourced all the parts could easily take us well into next year at the earliest before the car is production ready.

Any hint of reliability or quality issues leads us back to TVR of the early millennium, and we all know how that ended even with a range of desirable cars.

How will this be funded with no sales income, in addition to the need to develop the next generation car at the same time in order to have a longer term sustainable business. We already think the current car, if it arrives , will be yesterdays technology in a car world that is changing way to fast for the likes of TVR as they currently exist.

Yesterdays technology.. not really.. how many very light weight high performance cars will be out there. It will make say the new Aston Vanstage look very overweight and overpriced (for the performance) and what will the handling/aero be like?

[twold]

My opinion is that the driving enthusiast world is crying out for something completely new and revolutionary ,not seen before,a completely new take on personal driving ,and not the same old ,same old that Tvr and others are offering.Just recently took a walk through central london .....Ferrari/lambo/aston/Bentley/Maserati /Porsche etc etc everywhere.I did not even bother looking in the end.The New Tvr will quickly be just another new car which will relatively shortly be outlawed/superceded.

I personally think that the enthusiast will very soon be in one of two camps,those who are driving the new revolutionary mode of personal transport as mentioned above,and those driving Classic cars (while you still can).I have decided to go the Classic route partly for reasons of individuality.

[bullittmcqueen]

twold said:

My opinion is that the driving enthusiast world is crying out for something completely new and revolutionary ,not seen before,a completely new take on personal driving ,and not the same old ,same old that Tvr and others are offering.Just recently took a walk through central london .....Ferrari/lambo/aston/Bentley/Maserati /Porsche etc etc everywhere.I did not even bother looking in the end.The New Tvr will quickly be just another new car which will relatively shortly be outlawed/superceded.

I personally think that the enthusiast will very soon be in one of two camps,those who are driving the new revolutionary mode of personal transport as mentioned above,and those driving Classic cars (while you still can).I have decided to go the Classic route partly for reasons of individuality.

The new TVR will never compete with the Lambos/et al and i indeed consider it to be firmly on the "Classic route", just with 2019 regulatory compliance. It's as old-school as it gets these days.

[bullittmcqueen]

bertie said:

As I said before, I’ve been involved as a component engineering and supply business in a lot of car programs and I know something of the engineering process involved in bringing a vehicle to market.

In my opinion, given they’ve made one working prototype, it leaves a colossal amount of development, engineering and testing to do before they’ve got a finished product.

Your surely have a lot more experience in that field than i do (which is zero), i freely admit that. So your point is, that the car has not been fully engineered yet and is a "working" prototype in the sense that it is, say 75% there ?

I don't think so. I believe that GMD is not only capable to design and engineer the car 100% but has also done it. To the point that they could start the approval process. This is exactly what they do for a living. Have you seen the construction videos and the i-stream cut-out video, the torsion impact pics, etc ?

Yes, maybe they took a few shortcuts with the prototype, but the engineering (and also the design) is completed, that i'm sure. There are many obstacles still left, that's for sure though.

[bertie]

bullittmcqueen said:

bertie said:

As I said before, I’ve been involved as a component engineering and supply business in a lot of car programs and I know something of the engineering process involved in bringing a vehicle to market.

In my opinion, given they’ve made one working prototype, it leaves a colossal amount of development, engineering and testing to do before they’ve got a finished product.

Your surely have a lot more experience in that field than i do (which is zero), i freely admit that. So your point is, that the car has not been fully engineered yet and is a "working" prototype in the sense that it is, say 75% there ?

I don't think so. I believe that GMD is not only capable to design and engineer the car 100% but has also done it. To the point that they could start the approval process. This is exactly what they do for a living. Have you seen the construction videos and the i-stream cut-out video, the torsion impact pics, etc ?

Yes, maybe they took a few shortcuts with the prototype, but the engineering (and also the design) is completed, that i'm sure. There are many obstacles still left, that's for sure though.

So you think that one car is the finished product, meets all the relevant legislation, will sail through durability testing without requiring any re engineering, and is simply waiting for being put into production as is.

As I say, I admire your faith

[m4tti]

And if the market wasn’t tough enough, pre-orders of the Corvette C8 have started with the 500bhp entry level car starting at $60k...