New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 2)
Discussion
BJWoods said:
We’ve Always made plain Ebbw Vale is core to our strategy and, as we’ve mentioned previously,the factory is proceeding more slowly than we would like and whilst we are achieving forward momentum, sometimes bureaucratic processes that are designed to assist actually hamper. At last, we are very pleased to announce that we are appointing Jones Brothers (Henllan) in respect of our element of the factory refurbishment and fit-out plans for the site in Ebbw Vale!
Jones Brothers ( jbhl.co.uk ) have extensive and broad experience in the construction and civil engineering sector, as well as being local boys and leaders in their field for nearly 50 years. The range of projects they have worked on in the past is not limited to buildings either, with highway construction being part of their repertoire together with some great projects such as working on the Swansea City Training Academy amongst others. With their highways experience it raised a few suggestions in the canteen over what is done with the perimeter road around the factory for car ‘testing’ … thinking about that, now’s the time for some cool suggestions for things the factory should have – a set of Carlos Fandango wheels goes to the best idea submitted – 2 sets for second place!
Actually, Jones Bros. are a delight to work with and I have the utmost faith that they will produce a facility unlike that of any other sports car manufacturer. The handover of your car at the factory will be an experience, the like of which you are unlikely to find anywhere else.
We understand from Mr Jones that the refurbishment works, repairs to the building itself and fit-out are relatively straightforward, although I’m sure there’ll be some unexpected stuff along the way. We are now waiting to confirm the anticipated start of works on site and, ultimately, the project completion date which will give us (and you!) the necessary info to plan for Start of Production.
I must be dreamingJones Brothers ( jbhl.co.uk ) have extensive and broad experience in the construction and civil engineering sector, as well as being local boys and leaders in their field for nearly 50 years. The range of projects they have worked on in the past is not limited to buildings either, with highway construction being part of their repertoire together with some great projects such as working on the Swansea City Training Academy amongst others. With their highways experience it raised a few suggestions in the canteen over what is done with the perimeter road around the factory for car ‘testing’ … thinking about that, now’s the time for some cool suggestions for things the factory should have – a set of Carlos Fandango wheels goes to the best idea submitted – 2 sets for second place!
Actually, Jones Bros. are a delight to work with and I have the utmost faith that they will produce a facility unlike that of any other sports car manufacturer. The handover of your car at the factory will be an experience, the like of which you are unlikely to find anywhere else.
We understand from Mr Jones that the refurbishment works, repairs to the building itself and fit-out are relatively straightforward, although I’m sure there’ll be some unexpected stuff along the way. We are now waiting to confirm the anticipated start of works on site and, ultimately, the project completion date which will give us (and you!) the necessary info to plan for Start of Production.
BJWoods said:
Actually, Jones Bros. are a delight to work with and I have the utmost faith that they will produce a facility unlike that of any other sports car manufacturer. The handover of your car at the factory will be an experience, the like of which you are unlikely to find anywhere else.
Gazzab said:
Admission that funding is an issue and some seemingly bulls
t suggestion that TVR are the ones turning down investors.
I simply can't see how the business case can be any better than the already shaky one first doing the rounds way back when?t suggestion that TVR are the ones turning down investors. The world has moved on. Like it or not EVs are taking over (and fast), and critically, social opinion is moving ever faster towards less consumptive ends. Today, with cities announcing possible "EV only" zones, and already impossing additional tarrifs on highly polluting vehicles (today based on the harmful pollutants, but mark my word, taxes on "low efficiency" are not that far away (When even today, something like an TM3 is using energy at an equivalent of 150mpg, a car that does 'just' 30mpg is going to quickly look very, very out of place imo).
And of course, there is already a £2M debt hanging, which although unlikely to be called in, certainly is going to feature heavily on the finance sheets when looked at by any external inverstor.
Realistically, sales volumes were / are going to be small, by comparison (typical cars sold per Annum)
Noble: 25
caterham: 130
Morgan: 500
Mclaren: 1000
Aston Martin: 2200
Ferrari: 2500
Bentley: 3000
Jaguar (F type only): 4000
Porsche (911 only): 17,000
So where would NewCo sit? I'm going to suggest that Morgan is the best fit in terms of a similar product, so that's a maximum of 500 cars per annum, and that volume is likely to be highly unstable and based on both model lifecycle and world wide financial state.
Given a sales price of lets say £100K, on which it should be possible to return £10k profit (10% return, which is actually really hard to do for a small company at low volume), that's a yearly profit of just £5M. And given the fact that the overheads from the development and factory are likely to be significant and could easily be £20M (TVR have quoted ridiculous numbers like £100M), you are talking about 4 years sales to just break even for an investor, not including any interest on any loan, or the fact that a 4 year life would now be considered a LONG model cycle, to the chances of selling the same 500 cars in year 4 is, imo, slim to impossible.
On the TVR Club Facebook page with the update in full: https://www.facebook.com/TVRCC/posts/2660206050657...tn=K-R
Next month we’ll update you on all of the above and more.
All the best
Les
TVR Manufacturing Ltd
Also some images of the latest versions of the seats.
Next month we’ll update you on all of the above and more.
All the best
Les
TVR Manufacturing Ltd
Also some images of the latest versions of the seats.
Edited by N7GTX on Saturday 31st August 16:57
N7GTX said:
On the TVR Club Facebook page with the update in full: https://www.facebook.com/TVRCC/posts/2660206050657...tn=K-R
They’re getting panned on the Facebook page.A good chance for a free helicopter ride again?
Max_Torque said:
..... Realistically, sales volumes were / are going to be small, by comparison (typical cars sold per Annum)
Noble: 25
caterham: 130
Morgan: 500
Mclaren: 1000
Aston Martin: 2200
Ferrari: 2500
Bentley: 3000
Jaguar (F type only): 4000
Porsche (911 only): 17,000
Noble: 25
caterham: 130
Morgan: 500
Mclaren: 1000
Aston Martin: 2200
Ferrari: 2500
Bentley: 3000
Jaguar (F type only): 4000
Porsche (911 only): 17,000
If you want to quote figures, at least show the correct ones.
Aston Martin is certainly wrong.
I am fairly sure Ferrari is also wrong.
Jon39 said:
Max_Torque said:
..... Realistically, sales volumes were / are going to be small, by comparison (typical cars sold per Annum)
Noble: 25
caterham: 130
Morgan: 500
Mclaren: 1000
Aston Martin: 2200
Ferrari: 2500
Bentley: 3000
Jaguar (F type only): 4000
Porsche (911 only): 17,000
Noble: 25
caterham: 130
Morgan: 500
Mclaren: 1000
Aston Martin: 2200
Ferrari: 2500
Bentley: 3000
Jaguar (F type only): 4000
Porsche (911 only): 17,000
If you want to quote figures, at least show the correct ones.
Aston Martin is certainly wrong.
I am fairly sure Ferrari is also wrong.
I like the new seats if that helps.
El stovey said:
N7GTX said:
On the TVR Club Facebook page with the update in full: https://www.facebook.com/TVRCC/posts/2660206050657...tn=K-R
They’re getting panned on the Facebook page.A good chance for a free helicopter ride again?
Jon39 said:
If you want to quote figures, at least show the correct ones.
Aston Martin is certainly wrong.
I am fairly sure Ferrari is also wrong.
Max_Torque said:
Gazzab said:
Admission that funding is an issue and some seemingly bullst suggestion that TVR are the ones turning down investors.
I simply can't see how the business case can be any better than the already shaky one first doing the rounds way back when?t suggestion that TVR are the ones turning down investors. The world has moved on. Like it or not EVs are taking over (and fast), and critically, social opinion is moving ever faster towards less consumptive ends. Today, with cities announcing possible "EV only" zones, and already impossing additional tarrifs on highly polluting vehicles (today based on the harmful pollutants, but mark my word, taxes on "low efficiency" are not that far away (When even today, something like an TM3 is using energy at an equivalent of 150mpg, a car that does 'just' 30mpg is going to quickly look very, very out of place imo).
And of course, there is already a £2M debt hanging, which although unlikely to be called in, certainly is going to feature heavily on the finance sheets when looked at by any external inverstor.
Realistically, sales volumes were / are going to be small, by comparison (typical cars sold per Annum)
Noble: 25
caterham: 130
Morgan: 500
Mclaren: 1000
Aston Martin: 2200
Ferrari: 2500
Bentley: 3000
Jaguar (F type only): 4000
Porsche (911 only): 17,000
So where would NewCo sit? I'm going to suggest that Morgan is the best fit in terms of a similar product, so that's a maximum of 500 cars per annum, and that volume is likely to be highly unstable and based on both model lifecycle and world wide financial state.
Given a sales price of lets say £100K, on which it should be possible to return £10k profit (10% return, which is actually really hard to do for a small company at low volume), that's a yearly profit of just £5M. And given the fact that the overheads from the development and factory are likely to be significant and could easily be £20M (TVR have quoted ridiculous numbers like £100M), you are talking about 4 years sales to just break even for an investor, not including any interest on any loan, or the fact that a 4 year life would now be considered a LONG model cycle, to the chances of selling the same 500 cars in year 4 is, imo, slim to impossible.
There's no point in knocking something that's obviously quoting figures as an example
TVR has a massive hill to climb and even if reaching the top could easily...........................
Electricity, it's all about electricity
Max_Torque said:
Jon39 said:
If you want to quote figures, at least show the correct ones.
Aston Martin is certainly wrong.
I am fairly sure Ferrari is also wrong.
To state Aston Martin sell 2,200 is ridiculously inaccurate, even if you do include the word typical.
Their record production was before 2017. It was in the Dr. Bez era, over 7,000 cars.
Last year it was 6,441.
Since the introduction of the DB7 in 1994, the production numbers have never been as low as you state.
The historic AML figures are freely available.
If you go back to the 1970s, that is when you would then find the really low numbers, when Aston Martin in Newport Pagnell were making fewer than 100 cars a year. With rubbish piling up on the streets, a 3 day working week, constant strikes and regular electricity cuts, not many businesses were doing very well in those days. The receiver arrived at AML.
There is now more competition than ever in the sports car market. This is revealed by Aston Martin selling fewer cars now than in 2007 and 2008, when the DBS, DB9 and Vantage were their core models. Even making a profit is a continuing problem and so much depends on their forthcoming SUV model being a success. Development of the new models and the new factory in Wales have cost hundreds of millions of pounds. Company debt is now around £700 million.
As a consequence of the changed times, the revived TVR unfortunately faces immense commercial difficulties, as would any new entry to sports car manufacturing. Morgan do regularly make modest profits, but that is a unique sports car business in many ways.
I know that many of you here are passionate about TVR cars, so I do hope the new company is able to start production.
Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 31st August 23:16
My read between the lines is that potential partners want to dilute Les & co out, and possibly even only retain the brand. I can see why that wouldn’t be appealing. A hunch, no more than that.
Re the fitout contractors, it is possible that both Welsh gov & TVR have gone with the same contractor. It could be a smart move if so.
Good in honesty terms to see that more £ is needed. Still holding out the factory as key to start of production, but no evidence they’ve done any further development towards being production-ready. So hard to tell, but feels like minimum 24 months from now - with a following wind - to production cars in the hands of customers.
Re the fitout contractors, it is possible that both Welsh gov & TVR have gone with the same contractor. It could be a smart move if so.
Good in honesty terms to see that more £ is needed. Still holding out the factory as key to start of production, but no evidence they’ve done any further development towards being production-ready. So hard to tell, but feels like minimum 24 months from now - with a following wind - to production cars in the hands of customers.
Jon39 said:
Max_Torque said:
Jon39 said:
If you want to quote figures, at least show the correct ones.
Aston Martin is certainly wrong.
I am fairly sure Ferrari is also wrong.
To state Aston Martin sell 2,200 is ridiculously inaccurate, even if you do include the word typical.
Their record production was before 2017. It was in the Dr. Bez era, over 7,000 cars.
Last year it was 6,441.
Since the introduction of the DB7 in 1994, the production numbers have never been as low as you state.
The historic AML figures are freely available.
If you go back to the 1970s, that is when you would then find the really low numbers, when Aston Martin in Newport Pagnell were making fewer than 100 cars a year. With rubbish piling up on the streets, a 3 day working week, constant strikes and regular electricity cuts, not many businesses were doing very well in those days. The receiver arrived at AML.
There is now more competition than ever in the sports car market. This is revealed by Aston Martin selling fewer cars now than in 2007 and 2008, when the DBS, DB9 and Vantage were their core models. Even making a profit is a continuing problem and so much depends on their forthcoming SUV model being a success. Development of the new models and the new factory in Wales have cost hundreds of millions of pounds. Company debt is now around £700 million.
As a consequence of the changed times, the revived TVR unfortunately faces immense commercial difficulties, as would any new entry to sports car manufacturing. Morgan do regularly make modest profits, but that is a unique sports car business in many ways.
I know that many of you here are passionate about TVR cars, so I do hope the new company is able to start production.
Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 31st August 23:16
But as i said, you're still missing the point! The point was simply to get a decent estimate of the sorts of numbers of cars TVR could sell in one year, which imo is more than Caterham, but less than Mclaren, ie around 500 CPA. If you have a better estimate, lets hear it ?
Max_Torque said:
And of course, the hybrid stuff is nonsense too. To build a hybrid you need to be able to package the motor, inverter, and critically the batteries, pray do tell where in the current design the batteries will go????
If true, maybe a version of this system which was uncovered fairly recently....would mean an AWD TVR. 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.torquenews.com/10...
Fill the boot with just enough batteries to tick whatever the “hybrid” Powertrain credentials dictate, and it’s job done.
Edited by dvs_dave on Sunday 1st September 05:57
Updates certainly bring out the negative folk around here.....
Seems they can't win... stay quiet 'its all over' make a statement 'it's all over'.
Well of course we can all make our own assumptions from what we read, but the reality is they have given us what they can when they can, with more to follow. Call me a sucker if you like but all they state makes sense in the 'real' world. With respect I believe some comments on here imply little concept of a viable business model.
So this 'sucker' doesn't expect a new TVR on my driveway week Friday, is happy for the guys to get the right investment, and totally gets the need to consider 'hybrid' whilst the factory is prepared!
Seems they can't win... stay quiet 'its all over' make a statement 'it's all over'.
Well of course we can all make our own assumptions from what we read, but the reality is they have given us what they can when they can, with more to follow. Call me a sucker if you like but all they state makes sense in the 'real' world. With respect I believe some comments on here imply little concept of a viable business model.
So this 'sucker' doesn't expect a new TVR on my driveway week Friday, is happy for the guys to get the right investment, and totally gets the need to consider 'hybrid' whilst the factory is prepared!
I Don”t get the update.
What’s all this about a building company
It’s a building company, next!
What a strange thing to talk about.
Who gives two hoots about that.
Just a small part of the process, compared to building cars! That’s just as basic as it comes, a known company can do a job on the building,, that’s what they do.
Very disappointingly updates such as this are quite possibly the reason why people question what the heck is actually going on.
A depositor has not had the Email.
What’s all this about a building company
It’s a building company, next!
What a strange thing to talk about.
Who gives two hoots about that.
Just a small part of the process, compared to building cars! That’s just as basic as it comes, a known company can do a job on the building,, that’s what they do.
Very disappointingly updates such as this are quite possibly the reason why people question what the heck is actually going on.
A depositor has not had the Email.
Graham007 said:
Updates certainly bring out the negative folk around here.....
Seems they can't win... stay quiet 'its all over' make a statement 'it's all over'.
Well of course we can all make our own assumptions from what we read, but the reality is they have given us what they can when they can, with more to follow. Call me a sucker if you like but all they state makes sense in the 'real' world. With respect I believe some comments on here imply little concept of a viable business model.
So this 'sucker' doesn't expect a new TVR on my driveway week Friday, is happy for the guys to get the right investment, and totally gets the need to consider 'hybrid' whilst the factory is prepared!
If they say nothing or make a statement that says nothing. The result is the same, nothing is actually happening. Nothing at all has happened for months, no testing nothing. The factory isn’t getting prepared, they’ve actually said they’re having trouble with investment. Seems they can't win... stay quiet 'its all over' make a statement 'it's all over'.
Well of course we can all make our own assumptions from what we read, but the reality is they have given us what they can when they can, with more to follow. Call me a sucker if you like but all they state makes sense in the 'real' world. With respect I believe some comments on here imply little concept of a viable business model.
So this 'sucker' doesn't expect a new TVR on my driveway week Friday, is happy for the guys to get the right investment, and totally gets the need to consider 'hybrid' whilst the factory is prepared!
What in that email makes you think it will happen at all?
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