New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 2)

[N7GTX]

skwdenyer said:

Re the fitout contractors, it is possible that both Welsh gov & TVR have gone with the same contractor. It could be a smart move if so.

The Welsh Government appointed Capita (Jan 2018) to project manage and who, according to this info, are doing the full refurb (£5m).

'By the end of the refurbishment, the physical fabric of the building will be transformed to provide high quality production space, new and improved offices and up graded car parking and landscape areas.'

https://www.capitaproperty.co.uk/insight/news/2018...

Les is saying in the update that the Jones Bros are doing it.

'We understand from Mr Jones that the refurbishment works, repairs to the building itself and fit-out ....'

So who knows?

Edited by N7GTX on Sunday 1st September 10:12

Edited by N7GTX on Sunday 1st September 10:14

[Gazzab]

Graham007 said:

Updates certainly bring out the negative folk around here.....

Seems they can't win... stay quiet 'its all over' make a statement 'it's all over'.

Well of course we can all make our own assumptions from what we read, but the reality is they have given us what they can when they can, with more to follow. Call me a sucker if you like but all they state makes sense in the 'real' world. With respect I believe some comments on here imply little concept of a viable business model.
So this 'sucker' doesn't expect a new TVR on my driveway week Friday, is happy for the guys to get the right investment, and totally gets the need to consider 'hybrid' whilst the factory is prepared!

Congratulations Graham you have just gone and got yourself a ride on my chopper.

[TrotCanterGallopCharge]

N7GTX said:

skwdenyer said:

Re the fitout contractors, it is possible that both Welsh gov & TVR have gone with the same contractor. It could be a smart move if so.

The Welsh Government appointed Capita (Jan 2018) to project manage and who, according to this info, are doing the full refurb (£5m).

'By the end of the refurbishment, the physical fabric of the building will be transformed to provide high quality production space, new and improved offices and up graded car parking and landscape areas.'

https://www.capitaproperty.co.uk/insight/news/2018...

Les is saying in the update that the Jones Bros are doing it.

'We understand from Mr Jones that the refurbishment works, repairs to the building itself and fit-out ....'

So who knows?

Edited by N7GTX on Sunday 1st September 10:12

Edited by N7GTX on Sunday 1st September 10:14

Capita being a 'Project Management company', may need a 'Building Contractor' to carry out the works. The first thing for any party to do will be to get the building shell structurally sound, safe & usable (basic structure only). The 'Fit out' Contractor will then finish off the internal walls/partitions/mezzanine floors/painting/electrics/plumbing etc to suit whoever leases the building reqirements.

That still doesnt get over the matter of Newco not having enough money, not having completed ALL proper vehicle development, getting it tested & approved, so a customer can actually buy a finished product. Issue made worse as others have stated, in that due to time delays, engines/electrics have moved the game on, requiring even more time to sort out, & not being able to get Approvals on finished design.

If I recall correctly, Tvr had stated that in the event of any 'factory' delays, they would get development & car production sorted off site in a 'smaller facility', which in itself would have kept car buyers happy, this hasnt happened (lack of money?).

Timewise, due to going to the Welsh Govt for Building & Loan etc, Newco may actually be further behind Schedule (in predicted timeframe to complete all works & having a car ready for the road, originally approx 2-3 years?) than when they launched the new Griff in the first place.

[Graham007]

Gazzab said:

Congratulations Graham you have just gone and got yourself a ride on my chopper.

I just knew something positive would come from this!!!!

[anonymous-user]

dvs_dave said:

Fill the boot with just enough batteries to tick whatever the “hybrid” Powertrain credentials dictate, and it’s job done.

er, i'd rather like the boot to remain so i can put stuff in it, which is really the point of having a boot! I mean, they could remove the passenger seat and put the battery pack there, but it will also rather render the car a bit pointless!

(this is the lesson most OEs have already learnt (except AML with their ridiculous vanity EV) which is cars designed for internal combustion engines really don't make very good hybrids or EVs)

[anonymous-user]

Graham007 said:

Updates certainly bring out the negative folk around here.....

Seems they can't win... stay quiet 'its all over' make a statement 'it's all over'.

Well of course we can all make our own assumptions from what we read, but the reality is they have given us what they can when they can, with more to follow. Call me a sucker if you like but all they state makes sense in the 'real' world. With respect I believe some comments on here imply little concept of a viable business model.
So this 'sucker' doesn't expect a new TVR on my driveway week Friday, is happy for the guys to get the right investment, and totally gets the need to consider 'hybrid' whilst the factory is prepared!

er, in case you've forgotten, TVR is a CAR company, they are not a "building refurbishment" company! Hence i'd like an update that actually told me when they will make some of those cars! Literally no one cares about the painting of the factory. That is just one tiny detail that for any other car company would be taken entirely for granted (we've got a new factory, and yes, it's been painted).
If they want an update that actually suggests this project will succeed, lets see some gateways for the CRITCAL tasks, like vehicle homologations, test programs, parts sourcing, build volumes vs dates, or heaven forbin, customer delivery dates. The only reason to not have any of those in the update is because they are not actually anywhere close to be able to establish a date for those gateways, which means that actually nothing is happening.....

[dvs_dave]

Max_Torque said:

dvs_dave said:

Fill the boot with just enough batteries to tick whatever the “hybrid” Powertrain credentials dictate, and it’s job done.

er, i'd rather like the boot to remain so i can put stuff in it, which is really the point of having a boot! I mean, they could remove the passenger seat and put the battery pack there, but it will also rather render the car a bit pointless!

(this is the lesson most OEs have already learnt (except AML with their ridiculous vanity EV) which is cars designed for internal combustion engines really don't make very good hybrids or EVs)

Not talking full EV mode here chap. Hybrid Powertrain batteries aren’t actually all that large, and don’t constitute a literal boot completely full of batteries. Especially if only with a view to trying to meet minimum “hybrid” requirements, whatever they are.

Maybe they’d go with a much more basic system that’s far easier to package, along the lines of the current toothed belt drive motor/alternator systems and a small 48v battery tucked away somewhere. They tick the “hybrid” box, but only barely. If that’s all they need to do to satisfy coming regs from various cities around the world, then perhaps that’ll be it.

[anonymous-user]

dvs_dave said:

Max_Torque said:

dvs_dave said:

Fill the boot with just enough batteries to tick whatever the “hybrid” Powertrain credentials dictate, and it’s job done.

er, i'd rather like the boot to remain so i can put stuff in it, which is really the point of having a boot! I mean, they could remove the passenger seat and put the battery pack there, but it will also rather render the car a bit pointless!

(this is the lesson most OEs have already learnt (except AML with their ridiculous vanity EV) which is cars designed for internal combustion engines really don't make very good hybrids or EVs)

Not talking full EV mode here chap. Hybrid Powertrain batteries aren’t actually all that large, and don’t constitute a literal boot completely full of batteries. Especially if only with a view to trying to meet minimum “hybrid” requirements, whatever they are.

Maybe they’d go with a much more basic system that’s far easier to package, along the lines of the current toothed belt drive motor/alternator systems and a small 48v battery tucked away somewhere. They tick the “hybrid” box, but only barely. If that’s all they need to do to satisfy coming regs from various cities around the world, then perhaps that’ll be it.

Problem is that a belt ISG doesn't enable you to drive with the engine off. Pretty soon that's going to be a requirement for city driving, not just a small hybird assist for the ICE! They'll need to have a gearbox integrated motor, and something like 5 to 8kWh of batteries to enable some low range creeping (remember, the i8 today has that much battery and it's really a ReX rather than a hybrid)


Then they have to get all that working and tested, which considering right now there biggest problem seems to be deciding what colour to paint the factory canteen suggests it might be a bit of a long shot for them...........

[Steve_D]

Is there an EV powertrain specialist equivalent to Gordon Murray or Cosworth out there somewhere?
If so then Les should be in talks and reporting same.

Steve

[dvs_dave]

Max_Torque said:

Problem is that a belt ISG doesn't enable you to drive with the engine off. Pretty soon that's going to be a requirement for city driving, not just a small hybird assist for the ICE! They'll need to have a gearbox integrated motor, and something like 5 to 8kWh of batteries to enable some low range creeping (remember, the i8 today has that much battery and it's really a ReX rather than a hybrid)


Then they have to get all that working and tested, which considering right now there biggest problem seems to be deciding what colour to paint the factory canteen suggests it might be a bit of a long shot for them...........

Who knows wether they’ll get anything to market, but in an effort to move the conversation to a more interesting technical angle over the endless wanton “it’s doomed” narrative.....(it won’t work but hey ho)

With regards the hybrid/EV deadlines that various cities are rolling out, it’s not particularly soon. 2030-2040 timeline. I don’t think anyone purchasing a new 100 grand sports car in the next 2-5 years is particularly concerned about wether or not they can drive it in central Paris in 2040. I imagine by 2030 done sort of mild hybrid like an ISG will be mandatory and why Audi for example is pushing those systems hard now.

[skwdenyer]

dvs_dave said:

Who knows wether they’ll get anything to market, but in an effort to move the conversation to a more interesting technical angle over the endless wanton “it’s doomed” narrative.....(it won’t work but hey ho)

With regards the hybrid/EV deadlines that various cities are rolling out, it’s not particularly soon. 2030-2040 timeline. I don’t think anyone purchasing a new 100 grand sports car in the next 2-5 years is particularly concerned about wether or not they can drive it in central Paris in 2040. I imagine by 2030 done sort of mild hybrid like an ISG will be mandatory and why Audi for example is pushing those systems hard now.

There’s quite a difference between a hybrid and an EV.

For instance, the current Eire proposal is that no non-zero emission vehicles will be sold in Ireland after 2030. No hybrids.

And all non-zero emission vehicles off the road completely by 2045.

Eire will not be alone in this.

Part of the problem is that TVR needs investors, who will be looking in part at the current and potential brand equity. Les needs a coherent story as to how the TVR DNA is going to be translated into a ZEV world; otherwise who is going to invest? Or more specifically, who is going to invest on terms that don’t dilute all the existing shareholders out of the door.

[dvs_dave]

skwdenyer said:

There’s quite a difference between a hybrid and an EV.

For instance, the current Eire proposal is that no non-zero emission vehicles will be sold in Ireland after 2030. No hybrids.

And all non-zero emission vehicles off the road completely by 2045.

Eire will not be alone in this.

Part of the problem is that TVR needs investors, who will be looking in part at the current and potential brand equity. Les needs a coherent story as to how the TVR DNA is going to be translated into a ZEV world; otherwise who is going to invest? Or more specifically, who is going to invest on terms that don’t dilute all the existing shareholders out of the door.

They’re saying that now, but I just don’t think it’s feasible. Full EV’s won’t get cheap enough quick enough, and the range isn’t increasing quick enough either. Let alone the vast charging infrastructure that will have to be put in place over the next decade.

The market simply won’t stand it, so they’ll almost certainly back off on it. 20 years time is more realistic. 10 years, no chance.

[anonymous-user]

Max_Torque said:

er, in case you've forgotten, TVR is a CAR company, they are not a "building refurbishment" company! Hence i'd like an update that actually told me when they will make some of those cars! Literally no one cares about the painting of the factory. That is just one tiny detail that for any other car company would be taken entirely for granted (we've got a new factory, and yes, it's been painted).
If they want an update that actually suggests this project will succeed, lets see some gateways for the CRITCAL tasks, like vehicle homologations, test programs, parts sourcing, build volumes vs dates, or heaven forbin, customer delivery dates. The only reason to not have any of those in the update is because they are not actually anywhere close to be able to establish a date for those gateways, which means that actually nothing is happening.....

Spot on.

[m4tti]

dvs_dave said:

skwdenyer said:

There’s quite a difference between a hybrid and an EV.

For instance, the current Eire proposal is that no non-zero emission vehicles will be sold in Ireland after 2030. No hybrids.

And all non-zero emission vehicles off the road completely by 2045.

Eire will not be alone in this.

Part of the problem is that TVR needs investors, who will be looking in part at the current and potential brand equity. Les needs a coherent story as to how the TVR DNA is going to be translated into a ZEV world; otherwise who is going to invest? Or more specifically, who is going to invest on terms that don’t dilute all the existing shareholders out of the door.

They’re saying that now, but I just don’t think it’s feasible. Full EV’s won’t get cheap enough quick enough, and the range isn’t increasing quick enough either. Let alone the vast charging infrastructure that will have to be put in place over the next decade.

The market simply won’t stand it, so they’ll almost certainly back off on it. 20 years time is more realistic. 10 years, no chance.

Woah, woah, woah, hold your horses Dave! When I said a few pages back that the infrastructure and renewables weren’t in place to make BEV’s feasible or sustainable, you told me to look how quick mobile phone technology had moved on in a short space of time, and expect energy and bevs to do the same

[unrepentant]

m4tti said:

dvs_dave said:

skwdenyer said:

There’s quite a difference between a hybrid and an EV.

For instance, the current Eire proposal is that no non-zero emission vehicles will be sold in Ireland after 2030. No hybrids.

And all non-zero emission vehicles off the road completely by 2045.

Eire will not be alone in this.

Part of the problem is that TVR needs investors, who will be looking in part at the current and potential brand equity. Les needs a coherent story as to how the TVR DNA is going to be translated into a ZEV world; otherwise who is going to invest? Or more specifically, who is going to invest on terms that don’t dilute all the existing shareholders out of the door.

They’re saying that now, but I just don’t think it’s feasible. Full EV’s won’t get cheap enough quick enough, and the range isn’t increasing quick enough either. Let alone the vast charging infrastructure that will have to be put in place over the next decade.

The market simply won’t stand it, so they’ll almost certainly back off on it. 20 years time is more realistic. 10 years, no chance.

Woah, woah, woah, hold your horses Dave! When I said a few pages back that the infrastructure and renewables weren’t in place to make BEV’s feasible or sustainable, you told me to look how quick mobile phone technology had moved on in a short space of time, and expect energy and bevs to do the same

Range is increasing, 400 miles per charge will be normal soon. Infrastructure is expanding rapidly, the next phase has to be under road charging on new highways which will eventually eliminate range anxiety. DC chargers are already fast and will get faster. The manufacturers are investing many billions in BEV vehicles. Prices will fall over the next few years, are already falling in fact. The future is here and you plug it in.

[skwdenyer]

dvs_dave said:

They’re saying that now, but I just don’t think it’s feasible. Full EV’s won’t get cheap enough quick enough, and the range isn’t increasing quick enough either. Let alone the vast charging infrastructure that will have to be put in place over the next decade.

The market simply won’t stand it, so they’ll almost certainly back off on it. 20 years time is more realistic. 10 years, no chance.

Eire is tiny. How much range do you need there?

It is 10 years to get all new cars as EVs. You could do that tomorrow - it would just mean used cars stopped depreciating for a bit

21 years to renew the car stock? Why not? What % of cars in daily use are 21+ years old? There will be pain and gnashing of teeth, but it is perfectly achievable.

Japan - with its existing strict rules - could achieve it in a decade.

My point still stands - how are TVR to pitch their relevance in that world?

[gifdy]

The lack of progress on the car itself is, I think, very telling. You don't need a full production facility to knock out a few more prototypes or further develop the car. Could it be that the "business model" consists of; buying an recognised brand with loyal following, get a well established name to design a one off concept, demonstrate there is a market with deposit scheme, secure government funding for early production - sell up & get out before the hard work starts.

Sounds to me they are stuck at the last step in the plan and don't want to spend any more money.

[skwdenyer]

gifdy said:

The lack of progress on the car itself is, I think, very telling. You don't need a full production facility to knock out a few more prototypes or further develop the car. Could it be that the "business model" consists of; buying an recognised brand with loyal following, get a well established name to design a one off concept, demonstrate there is a market with deposit scheme, secure government funding for early production - sell up & get out before the hard work starts.

Sounds to me they are stuck at the last step in the plan and don't want to spend any more money.

Interesting thought. The problem is it isn’t obvious how the exit price would be greater than the sum of the entrance price + money spent.

[gifdy]

skwdenyer said:

gifdy said:

The lack of progress on the car itself is, I think, very telling. You don't need a full production facility to knock out a few more prototypes or further develop the car. Could it be that the "business model" consists of; buying an recognised brand with loyal following, get a well established name to design a one off concept, demonstrate there is a market with deposit scheme, secure government funding for early production - sell up & get out before the hard work starts.

Sounds to me they are stuck at the last step in the plan and don't want to spend any more money.

Interesting thought. The problem is it isn’t obvious how the exit price would be greater than the sum of the entrance price + money spent.

I never said it was a well thought out business model

[baconsarney]