New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Tyre Smoke said:
V6, in my defence I never mentioned funding. I questioned what he has done with circa £5m (Welsh money and 500+ deposits) apart from put some stickers on a Rebellion?
At some point he had sufficient funding to make something. Now, it is blindingly obvious there is no money. It's all gone.
They are touting the car and rattling buckets in a last desperate throw of the dice.
Yeah I get that Tyresmoke. It wasn’t aimed at you mate. Every effort should be made by TVR to get funding and the rest follows.At some point he had sufficient funding to make something. Now, it is blindingly obvious there is no money. It's all gone.
They are touting the car and rattling buckets in a last desperate throw of the dice.
The every effort referred to includes PR, updates, trying everything not to lose deposit holders and more... but it just isn’t happening.
I’m a confirmed 4 on the Pushfit scale now so don’t know why I’m on here it must be the meds.
What's all this with needing to acquire money to make the things? I haven't done the maths on how much depositors money they have, but surely that alone would be enough to get production rolling, and then make further deposited models from the profit?
Say each car sold at £90K costs them £50k to make. That would fund the first 40 builds, giving them a further £1.4 million to make some more. Obviously it wouldn't get them to the full 500, that would make them enough to build 28 more from their profit, making them £980k - they would be on a path to running out of money, but surely getting cars out the door would be better placing themselves to acquire borrowing/investment?
Or am I being simplistic? Are they actually saying we've got no money to even kit out the factory?
Say each car sold at £90K costs them £50k to make. That would fund the first 40 builds, giving them a further £1.4 million to make some more. Obviously it wouldn't get them to the full 500, that would make them enough to build 28 more from their profit, making them £980k - they would be on a path to running out of money, but surely getting cars out the door would be better placing themselves to acquire borrowing/investment?
Or am I being simplistic? Are they actually saying we've got no money to even kit out the factory?
Edited by Fermit and Sexy Sarah on Wednesday 29th January 20:31
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
What's all this with needing to acquire money to make the things? I haven't done the maths on how much depositors money they have, but surely that alone would be enough to get production rolling, and then make the further deposited models from the profit?
Say each car sold at £90K costs them £50k to make. That would fund the first 40 builds, giving them a further £1.4 million to make some more. Obviously it wouldn't get them to the full 500, that would make them enough to build 28 more from their profit, making them £980k - they would be on a path to running out of money, but surely getting cars out the door would be better placing themselves to acquire borrowing/investment?
Or am I being simplistic? Are they actually saying we've got no money to even kit out the factory?
They have and never have had any practical technical capability or automotive experience. And to pay Gordon Murray to approach the issue the same way would be prohibitively expensive presumably. Say each car sold at £90K costs them £50k to make. That would fund the first 40 builds, giving them a further £1.4 million to make some more. Obviously it wouldn't get them to the full 500, that would make them enough to build 28 more from their profit, making them £980k - they would be on a path to running out of money, but surely getting cars out the door would be better placing themselves to acquire borrowing/investment?
Or am I being simplistic? Are they actually saying we've got no money to even kit out the factory?
That and they did say deposits are refundable.
The deposit numbers are supposed to have brought investment. However due to the team having an evident lack of having a clue no one has decided to pour money in for production.
crosseyedlion said:
They have and never have had any practical technical capability or automotive experience. And to pay Gordon Murray to approach the issue the same way would be prohibitively expensive presumably.
That and they did say deposits are refundable.
The deposit numbers are supposed to have brought investment. However due to the team having an evident lack of having a clue no one has decided to pour money in for production.
It’s easy to throw stones but tvr have apparently managed the incredible feat of going from having 500 deposits at the launch to less than 500 a few years ago due to cancellations and now have over 500 again whilst struggling for funding and with yet more delays. That and they did say deposits are refundable.
The deposit numbers are supposed to have brought investment. However due to the team having an evident lack of having a clue no one has decided to pour money in for production.
That pretty amazing that by doing no pr whatsoever and despite cancellations they managed to get even more deposits that they started with.
crosseyedlion said:
There is already the network of tvr specialists.
And you underestimate the margin per car for the enterprise. It'd still turn a profit.
Regarding warranties, it needs a certain amount per car putting by. The amount would be dictated by the durab testing. Which they haven't done.
Imagine paying 90k for something and collecting from one of those “TVR Specialist”. And you underestimate the margin per car for the enterprise. It'd still turn a profit.
Regarding warranties, it needs a certain amount per car putting by. The amount would be dictated by the durab testing. Which they haven't done.
That might of worked If we have equivalent of Ferrucio Lamborghini doing a personal hand over, but people expect more of an experience now.
They’ll need to be handing the cars over at a minimum from the factory in a fancy detailing room all light up.
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
Say each car sold at £90K costs them £50k to make. That would fund the first 40 builds, giving them a further £1.4 million to make some more. Obviously it wouldn't get them to the full 500, that would make them enough to build 28 more from their profit, making them £980k - they would be on a path to running out of money...
Not quite. It’s better than that. I think you’re forgetting that after selling the first 40 you not only have the profit to build 28 more on your figures, you’ve also paid back the costs for the 40 you’ve just made so you can make 40 again as well as the extra 28. And so it snowballs... Edited by Fermit and Sexy Sarah on Wednesday 29th January 20:31
OK, all very simplistic but plenty businesses have started small and then grown production over time.
tvrolet said:
Not quite. It’s better than that. I think you’re forgetting that after selling the first 40 you not only have the profit to build 28 more on your figures, you’ve also paid back the costs for the 40 you’ve just made so you can make 40 again as well as the extra 28. And so it snowballs...
OK, all very simplistic but plenty businesses have started small and then grown production over time.
Of course, I thought I was missing something! OK, all very simplistic but plenty businesses have started small and then grown production over time.
m4tti said:
crosseyedlion said:
There is already the network of tvr specialists.
And you underestimate the margin per car for the enterprise. It'd still turn a profit.
Regarding warranties, it needs a certain amount per car putting by. The amount would be dictated by the durab testing. Which they haven't done.
Imagine paying 90k for something and collecting from one of those “TVR Specialist”. And you underestimate the margin per car for the enterprise. It'd still turn a profit.
Regarding warranties, it needs a certain amount per car putting by. The amount would be dictated by the durab testing. Which they haven't done.
That might of worked If we have equivalent of Ferrucio Lamborghini doing a personal hand over, but people expect more of an experience now.
They’ll need to be handing the cars over at a minimum from the factory in a fancy detailing room all light up.
Dear God!
All these Indy 'dealers'. Perhaps they don't want to be TVR dealers? Perhaps they don't buy into the TVR dream? Perhaps they don't need to?
I'm sorry but this isn't a build it and they will buy. There needs to be back up. Not many people are going to blindly hand over £90k when there are better supported and cheaper alternatives.
All these Indy 'dealers'. Perhaps they don't want to be TVR dealers? Perhaps they don't buy into the TVR dream? Perhaps they don't need to?
I'm sorry but this isn't a build it and they will buy. There needs to be back up. Not many people are going to blindly hand over £90k when there are better supported and cheaper alternatives.
V6 Pushfit said:
Every effort should be made by TVR to get funding and the rest follows.
As a business investor, I wouldn't need to study the business plan. Simply reading this thread, is sufficient to make an immediate investment decision.
How can they get funding ? Certainly not from anyone who hopes to see their money again.
Jon39 said:
V6 Pushfit said:
Every effort should be made by TVR to get funding and the rest follows.
As a business investor, I wouldn't need to study the business plan. Simply reading this thread, is sufficient to make an immediate investment decision.
How can they get funding ? Certainly not from anyone who hopes to see their money again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2xlQaimsGg
A showroom is hardly beyond the average second hand cars salesman’s business aspirations let alone Tvr.
The longer this goes on the more I think Les really did want to go big which is real credit to the man, he’s looking to do this right, building a few in a shed isn’t really his scene is it,,,
Without investment it was always just a sales pitch but a very aspirational one which might be why 500 or more people agree with him and payed in.
I don’t give two f
ks about other sportscars. If GM’s chassis does the business all this bks will be gone.
Very rarely on this thread has anyone bothered to consider the political situation that’s evolving as we speak, 60% of small business in the U.K. say they have little idea how things will be in a years time, how can Tvr plan anything.
So will Wakes get funding like they have from Europe, most English can’t wait to leave the place and investment, dream on.
The longer this goes on the more I think Les really did want to go big which is real credit to the man, he’s looking to do this right, building a few in a shed isn’t really his scene is it,,,
Without investment it was always just a sales pitch but a very aspirational one which might be why 500 or more people agree with him and payed in.
I don’t give two f
ks about other sportscars. If GM’s chassis does the business all this bks will be gone. Very rarely on this thread has anyone bothered to consider the political situation that’s evolving as we speak, 60% of small business in the U.K. say they have little idea how things will be in a years time, how can Tvr plan anything.
So will Wakes get funding like they have from Europe, most English can’t wait to leave the place and investment, dream on.
Deja vu?
TVR - '"We're in the hands of the contractors and Welsh Government has to give the final go-ahead for the building," he said.'
Govt - 'we continue to work proactively to support the company while it seeks to secure the private sector finance needed to commence vehicle production."'
Stalemate. This is exactly what was being said over a year ago.
So you are in charge of public money with a number of failed adventures in the deprived areas. You have a new company come to you and say they will make cars if you provide the factory and a loan of £2m. Hmmm,,,,, that sounds like a good idea. The blarney is so good we'll even buy a stake in the company so we'll give them another £500k. But as we are a public entity we'll make the loan repayable after 5 years to cover our arses but we can charge lots of interest so that will keep Taffy public happy. In fact we are doing so well the £2m by mid 2018 had increased to £2,470,927. At this rate we should get back at least £3m+ so we haven't lost a penny. Really don't understand how Wonga have failed.......
We've been working proactively to support these chancers for 4 years now and they still haven't got the cash to begin production. But they still expect us to give away another £5m of Taffy's hard earned to put a new roof on that derelict dump in the valleys? Okay, so, for the moment, lets say we give Jones Bros the go ahead and they make a nice job of doing up that place, then what happens if the boy racers don't get any cash? We'll have a lovely empty shed and Taffy wont be happy, not one bit. And we'll be out of pocket again, as the Circuit of Wales fiasco cost us dear, well when I say us, I mean Taffy public.
So, we're in a stalemate now. Even the BBC got it right when it said, "It added the plant would become TVR's factory once the company had raised the finance it needed to make the cars."
We don't fix the shed until we have absolute and certain proof they have enough to begin production. So we really wish they would not keep harping on to the press and media that its all our fault. Once they have the cash they can have their factory. Simples.
No matter though, the loan has to be repaid in 2021 with lots of lovely interest. Diolch
TVR - '"We're in the hands of the contractors and Welsh Government has to give the final go-ahead for the building," he said.'
Govt - 'we continue to work proactively to support the company while it seeks to secure the private sector finance needed to commence vehicle production."'
Stalemate. This is exactly what was being said over a year ago.
So you are in charge of public money with a number of failed adventures in the deprived areas. You have a new company come to you and say they will make cars if you provide the factory and a loan of £2m. Hmmm,,,,, that sounds like a good idea. The blarney is so good we'll even buy a stake in the company so we'll give them another £500k. But as we are a public entity we'll make the loan repayable after 5 years to cover our arses but we can charge lots of interest so that will keep Taffy public happy. In fact we are doing so well the £2m by mid 2018 had increased to £2,470,927. At this rate we should get back at least £3m+ so we haven't lost a penny. Really don't understand how Wonga have failed.......
We've been working proactively to support these chancers for 4 years now and they still haven't got the cash to begin production. But they still expect us to give away another £5m of Taffy's hard earned to put a new roof on that derelict dump in the valleys? Okay, so, for the moment, lets say we give Jones Bros the go ahead and they make a nice job of doing up that place, then what happens if the boy racers don't get any cash? We'll have a lovely empty shed and Taffy wont be happy, not one bit. And we'll be out of pocket again, as the Circuit of Wales fiasco cost us dear, well when I say us, I mean Taffy public.
So, we're in a stalemate now. Even the BBC got it right when it said, "It added the plant would become TVR's factory once the company had raised the finance it needed to make the cars."
We don't fix the shed until we have absolute and certain proof they have enough to begin production. So we really wish they would not keep harping on to the press and media that its all our fault. Once they have the cash they can have their factory. Simples.
No matter though, the loan has to be repaid in 2021 with lots of lovely interest. Diolch
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
I haven't done the maths on how much depositors money they have, but surely that alone would be enough to get production rolling
I think you're right about not doing the maths! Not everyone has £5K deposits as club members 'only' had to put down £2.5K. Assume 500 depositers and you have just short of 1.9M (assuming £3750 average deposit). That is nowhere near enough to pay for the design, development, prototyping, tooling, materials, premises ("the shed"), staff, overheads and other costs etc let alone compliance with all the regulations for a 'mass' production design. All initial cars almost certainly would be getting sold at a loss so the "make more from the profit" would be impossibleThe 'smaller facility' which Les alluded to, I would imagine would be still aimed at using proper production equipment etc but in a smaller area so that cars could still be turned out but not in the full factory quantities. It wouldn't be aimed at building a different car (i.e this "just throw some cars together" suggestion that many seem to allude to on here). Redesigns and face-lifts all cost money too and that wouldn't obviously be priority for the TVR team at present.
It is obviously clear that the finance/funding is the major hurdle in the whole of this.
Les has aimed big and the car has been designed for proper 'mass' production and not a SVA/IVA style manufacturing business. Whether the right or wrong approach can be discussed for ever on here but at present, the path Les has taken is the one he's aiming to get funding for. It's also clear that they haven't thrown in the towel and I congratulate them on that (I thought most on here would want TVR 'roaring back').
Edited by cirks on Thursday 30th January 09:06
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