New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 2)

[N7GTX]

Jon39 said:

Wanabe British car manufacturers.

Following my link to the man developing an electric MGB, I have now stumbled across another man with dreams.
This is even closer to the TVR venture, because it revives a famous name, Connaught and has also struggled to raise money.
The MGB man had a modern industrial unit, but the Connaught premises look only marginally better than the present state of the TVR building.
Their first car is built and is to use a self developed (original TVR link again) narrow V10 Hybrid 2 litre engine.

What do you think ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8bNmRIPCdLY

Looks like a dead heat for both manufacturers now.

[Madest Mike]

The sad thing, and has been said before, why not have re-launched one of the past models with a GM or Ford crate motor. Improve build quality etc.

Surely they would have sold them. Then develop a new car if needed.

Opportunity missed!

Very sad.

[bullittmcqueen]

Madest Mike said:

The sad thing, and has been said before, why not have re-launched one of the past models with a GM or Ford crate motor. Improve build quality etc.

Surely they would have sold them. Then develop a new car if needed.

Opportunity missed!

Very sad.

Because it wouldn't have made any kind of difference. Engineering, regulations and financing would have posed exactly the same problems they are now facing.

[v8s4me]

But it would have got money coming in, cars on the road, brand visibility and built a workforce. Dropping an LS into a Tuscan, 350 or Sag was a tried and tested solution leaving the development effort to concentrate on a decent electrical system and build quality while developing the new model in the background.
It was a no-brainer; back then anyway. Too late now.

Edited by v8s4me on Friday 27th November 10:22

[bullittmcqueen]

v8s4me said:

But it would have got money coming in, cars on the road, brand visibility and built a workforce. Dropping an LS into a Tuscan, 350 or Sag was a tried and tested solution leaving the development effort to concentrate on a decent electrical system and build quality.
It was a no-brainer; back then anyway. Too late now.

You wouldn't get type approval for it, which is crucial. Re-making a Sag to today's standards and fully regulation-compliant would have resulted in exactly the same effort as developing the new Griff.

[TwinKam]

Aston started it (claiming they had 'found' some 'unused' DB4GT Zagato chassis numbers)... Jaguar joined in, now everyone's leaping onto the 'continuation' bandwagon...
Even Alvis have emerged from their hypersleep and are doing it
https://www.thealviscarcompany.co.uk

[baconsarney]

I thought Alvis was dead

[Jon39]

baconsarney said:

I thought Alvis was dead

I think I am roughly correct that the original Alvis successfully branched out into engineering and (was it later) military vehicles?
Presumably, as seems popular, someone has bought the rights to use the Alvis name for car manufacturing.

The popularity for 'recreation' models, as has already been said, is complicated by current safety regulations.
Hence they tend to be 'track only' cars, rarely used. A limited market that may not be to TVR enthusuasts liking.

There was an amusing comment by Goodwood's Lord March, when asked about the Jaguar recreations taking part in the Revival Meeting. "That car won't be coming in here. Simple - the actual car was not made prior to 1966".
It might be a million Pound car, but it is new.

[DonkeyApple]

Jon39 said:

I think I am roughly correct that the original Alvis successfully branched out into engineering and (was it later) military vehicles?
Presumably, as seems popular, someone has bought the rights to use the Alvis name for car manufacturing.

The popularity for 'recreation' models, as has already been said, is complicated by current safety regulations.
Hence they tend to be 'track only' cars, rarely used. A limited market that may not be to TVR enthusuasts liking.

There was an amusing comment by Goodwood's Lord March, when asked about the Jaguar recreations taking part in ghe Revival Meeting. "That car won't be coming in here. Simple - the actual car was not made prior to 1966".
It might be a million Pound car, but it is new.

He soon changed his tune though, when it was pointed out that his event is the largest event on the planet for showcasing and racing modern recreations and that the only difference between the new Jags and everything else is that Jaguar were being honest about the cars being brand new recreations as opposed to scuffing them up and demanding people believe they are the original car and engine being taken round the track.

[anonymous-user]

bullittmcqueen said:

v8s4me said:

But it would have got money coming in, cars on the road, brand visibility and built a workforce. Dropping an LS into a Tuscan, 350 or Sag was a tried and tested solution leaving the development effort to concentrate on a decent electrical system and build quality.
It was a no-brainer; back then anyway. Too late now.

You wouldn't get type approval for it, which is crucial. Re-making a Sag to today's standards and fully regulation-compliant would have resulted in exactly the same effort as developing the new Griff.

This ^^^ once TVR went into recievership and the production line stopped, they lost the loophole to carry over pervious homologation as "revised model". Any "new" model, ie built on a new line by a new company, is required to be fully re-homolgated and the old TVRs simply would not pass those criteria.

[Gladers01]

bullittmcqueen said:

v8s4me said:

But it would have got money coming in, cars on the road, brand visibility and built a workforce. Dropping an LS into a Tuscan, 350 or Sag was a tried and tested solution leaving the development effort to concentrate on a decent electrical system and build quality.
It was a no-brainer; back then anyway. Too late now.

You wouldn't get type approval for it, which is crucial. Re-making a Sag to today's standards and fully regulation-compliant would have resulted in exactly the same effort as developing the new Griff.

They could have approached Ricardo and tried to do a deal with the M838t engine which is well proven (used in the 570/650 McClarens) as an alternative to the American crate engines and giving the new Griff more of a British flavour maybe they did and it was too expensive

[baconsarney]

Jon39 said:

baconsarney said:

I thought Alvis was dead

I think I am roughly correct that the original Alvis successfully branched out into engineering and (was it later) military vehicles?
Presumably, as seems popular, someone has bought the rights to use the Alvis name for car manufacturing.

The popularity for 'recreation' models, as has already been said, is complicated by current safety regulations.
Hence they tend to be 'track only' cars, rarely used. A limited market that may not be to TVR enthusuasts liking.

There was an amusing comment by Goodwood's Lord March, when asked about the Jaguar recreations taking part in the Revival Meeting. "That car won't be coming in here. Simple - the actual car was not made prior to 1966".
It might be a million Pound car, but it is new.

How would Sir like his parrot this time

[bullittmcqueen]

Gladers01 said:

bullittmcqueen said:

v8s4me said:

But it would have got money coming in, cars on the road, brand visibility and built a workforce. Dropping an LS into a Tuscan, 350 or Sag was a tried and tested solution leaving the development effort to concentrate on a decent electrical system and build quality.
It was a no-brainer; back then anyway. Too late now.

You wouldn't get type approval for it, which is crucial. Re-making a Sag to today's standards and fully regulation-compliant would have resulted in exactly the same effort as developing the new Griff.

They could have approached Ricardo and tried to do a deal with the M838t engine which is well proven (used in the 570/650 McClarens) as an alternative to the American crate engines and giving the new Griff more of a British flavour maybe they did and it was too expensive

Not sure, but i guess the choice of a particular engine is not something they worry about. ICE vs electric is the thing. I'm quite happy with their Ford choice, btw.

I do increasingly worry, that the window for buying and maintaining ice's is closing way faster than even i thought. If they announced electric today, i'd most likely switch.

[Zeb74]

Max_Torque said:

This ^^^ once TVR went into recievership and the production line stopped, they lost the loophole to carry over pervious homologation as "revised model". Any "new" model, ie built on a new line by a new company, is required to be fully re-homolgated and the old TVRs simply would not pass those criteria.

There are difference between low volume manufacturers and the others in term of criteria no? How then could we have this electric MGB? Or a Dallara Stradale? Or even the new Morgan platform, not sure that it matches all the criteria that mainstream companies have to fulfill.

[bullittmcqueen]

Zeb74 said:

Max_Torque said:

This ^^^ once TVR went into recievership and the production line stopped, they lost the loophole to carry over pervious homologation as "revised model". Any "new" model, ie built on a new line by a new company, is required to be fully re-homolgated and the old TVRs simply would not pass those criteria.

There are difference between low volume manufacturers and the others in term of criteria no? How then could we have this electric MGB? Or a Dallara Stradale? Or even the new Morgan platform, not sure that it matches all the criteria that mainstream companies have to fulfill.

There are already some excemptions for the ESSTA (European Small Series Type approval) process which allows for sale of 1000 (or was it 2000 ?) cars per type per year in the whole of the EU. If you go even lower in numbers (which i think MBG, Morgan etc. are doing) you are trapped in a per-car approval scheme, which will not scale and is also probably of little use preparing for a "true" type approval.

As a sidenote, Les wanted to go to Le Mans, which is something you can only do with a type-approved car (however realistic that has been anyway).

Edit: the per-car approval would post-Brexit also pose significant barriers to selling the cars anywere else than in the UK.

Edited by bullittmcqueen on Friday 27th November 13:07

[Jon39]

Zeb74 said:

Max_Torque said:

This ^^^ once TVR went into recievership and the production line stopped, they lost the loophole to carry over pervious homologation as "revised model". Any "new" model, ie built on a new line by a new company, is required to be fully re-homolgated and the old TVRs simply would not pass those criteria.

There are difference between low volume manufacturers and the others in term of criteria no? How then could we have this electric MGB? Or a Dallara Stradale? Or even the new Morgan platform, not sure that it matches all the criteria that mainstream companies have to fulfill.

No expert on homologation regulations, but Aston Martin are at present partially exempt from some regulations (think emissions), because they are a low volume car manufacturer (well under 10,000).
However, their runs of recreation cars and also the Vulcan, have to be track only.

Think Morgan production might be under 1,000 pa., so perhaps rules are different at that level.
Their 4 wheelers do not meet USA regulations, so cannot be sold there. Their more lethal 3 wheeler is sold in USA though. They probably told them it is a motorcycle and sidecar. _

Edited by Jon39 on Friday 27th November 14:03

[bullittmcqueen]

Jon39 said:

Zeb74 said:

Max_Torque said:

This ^^^ once TVR went into recievership and the production line stopped, they lost the loophole to carry over pervious homologation as "revised model". Any "new" model, ie built on a new line by a new company, is required to be fully re-homolgated and the old TVRs simply would not pass those criteria.

There are difference between low volume manufacturers and the others in term of criteria no? How then could we have this electric MGB? Or a Dallara Stradale? Or even the new Morgan platform, not sure that it matches all the criteria that mainstream companies have to fulfill.

No expert on homologation regulations, but Aston Martin are at present partially exempt from some regulations (think emissions), because they are a low volume car manufacturer (well under 10,000).
However, their runs of recreation cars and also the Vulcan, have to be track only.

Think Morgan production might be under 1,000 pa., so perhaps rules are different at that level.
Their 4 wheelers do not meet USA regulations though, so cannot be sold there. Their more lethal 3 wheeler is sold in USA though. They probably told them it is a motorcycle and sidecar. _

Edited by Jon39 on Friday 27th November 14:02

From the Morgan website (FAQ):

...
Do Morgan cars have airbags?
New Morgan models are crash tested and type approved under the European small series approval. At the moment, no Morgan models feature airbags
...

Interesting. Type approved, but no Airbag.

In 2018 they were looking for an "Homologation Engineer" ( http://www.morgan-motor.com/wp-content/uploads/201... )

In 2020 this one here says, ESSTA Type approved (same as TVR is targeting) and Euro 6 emissions compliant:

https://neconnected.co.uk/morgan-motor-company-rev...

Btw, don't they have to upgrade to the respective latest standard all the time ? I.e. they will have to comply with Euro 6tmp d or whatever is called right now ?

[N7GTX]

“Now we have to productionise the car and achieve EC Small Series Type Approval, which allows us to build 1000 examples of each model type a year. That gives us pretty good production head room, especially as we have an entry strategy to the US that allows another 325 cars a year.

“But we’ve got some chunky engineering to do, like ABS calibration, emissions testing, building prototypes for crash-testing and taking the car through homologation, which is where the new investment comes in.”

24 July 2020

[v8s4me]

So in a nutshell then, He could have used the EC Small Series Type Approval to build 1000 LS engined SAG's and /or Tuscans per year to get the show on the road and attract investors. The latest announcement on electric would still have pulled the carpet on a future ICE TVR but at least there would have been a factory and a team in a position to adapt.

They think it's all over, it is now!

[bullittmcqueen]

v8s4me said:

So in a nutshell then, He could have used the EC Small Series Type Approval to build 1000 LS engined SAG's and /or Tuscans per year to get the show on the road and attract investors. The latest announcement on electric would still have pulled the carpet on a future ICE TVR but at least there would have been a factory and a team in a position to adapt.

They think it's all over, it is now!

No, they couldn't have. They would be in exactly the same situation they are now. LS or Coyote, Sag or Griff, doesn't matter. Point is, in any case, they would have had to start from scratch. Which is what they did with the Griff.

In essence you are saying, they should have built an alternative to the real thing first to attract investors. Problem is, that building the alternative is already as expensive as building the real thing and they don't have the money, so that idea just doesn't fly.

edit: not sure, is the "they would have had to start ..." part grammatically correct, or did i mix up the times ?
edit2: it's correct, past perfect

Edited by bullittmcqueen on Friday 27th November 15:28

Edited by bullittmcqueen on Friday 27th November 15:32