New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 2)
Discussion
bullittmcqueen said:
You're correct. 1500 is the number per type per year in the whole of the EU. My aging memory failed me.
Still, this is the only plausible way forward. Unfortunately, the clouds over the type-approval sky for IC-cars have darkened considerably in the past two years and the window is closing fast.
ps:
Actually, there evtl. has been a change with regards to that number. Just googling for 2 seconds and came up with this. I knew i had read "1000" before. Anyway, 1000 or 1500 does not materially change the situation.
... The EC SSTA allows access to the EU marketplace for vehicles sold in small quantities (up to 1,000 EU registrations per annum) to meet different technical and administrative requirements and is particularly useful for low volume manufacturers such as Caterham, Morgan and Radical. ...
Edit:
Also, it's not impossible to get the approval. To my knowledge, these things here are type approved:
https://www.donkervoort.com/en/cars/donkervoort-d8...
https://www.coordsport.com/pan-european-homologati...
You are quite correct Bullitt, 1,000 seems to be the number. Still, this is the only plausible way forward. Unfortunately, the clouds over the type-approval sky for IC-cars have darkened considerably in the past two years and the window is closing fast.
ps:
Actually, there evtl. has been a change with regards to that number. Just googling for 2 seconds and came up with this. I knew i had read "1000" before. Anyway, 1000 or 1500 does not materially change the situation.
... The EC SSTA allows access to the EU marketplace for vehicles sold in small quantities (up to 1,000 EU registrations per annum) to meet different technical and administrative requirements and is particularly useful for low volume manufacturers such as Caterham, Morgan and Radical. ...
Edit:
Also, it's not impossible to get the approval. To my knowledge, these things here are type approved:
https://www.donkervoort.com/en/cars/donkervoort-d8...
https://www.coordsport.com/pan-european-homologati...
In an interview with Autocar in July 2020, TVR said this:
"Now we have to productionise the car and achieve EC Small Series Type Approval, which allows us to build 1000 examples of each model type a year.
That gives us pretty good production head room, especially as we have an entry strategy to the US that allows another 325 cars a year.
But we’ve got some chunky engineering to do, like ABS calibration, emissions testing, building prototypes for crash-testing and taking the car through homologation, which is where the new investment comes in.”
In the interview it is claimed that by the time production starts it will have cost TVR £45m.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/tvr-re...
Edited by N7GTX on Thursday 6th May 16:55
baconsarney said:
ASM do not use a donor car. And as for ‘business models’, the model isn’t worth a damn if the best you can do is build one car. Lucy and Bullit, apply some imaginative lateral thinking.. said with respect...
Richard.
What are you talking about? Bullit and I, and I thought you all agree that the whole TVR thing is a dead duck. They will never be funded to productionise the new car, because it isn't a business model that would ever produce a return on investment, and neither is re-hashing a design from 20 years or more ago, and trying to sell a car now that couldn't be sold then.Richard.
Similarly, there is no sustainable business for making one-off "specials" either, which is ironically where Trevor started!
Lucy, I am of the opinion that newco is as you put it a dead duck, apologies if you thought I was inferring otherwise. I do believe however that TVR could still be resurrected, given the right people and a common sense plan, I.e. not aiming ridiculously high when you have no previous pertinent experience. I do now believe, sadly, that aiming to manufacture something very special to take on ‘the big boys’ was a folly of ego and arrogance. Actually I’ll correct my earlier ‘could still be resurrected’ I’m guessing LE owns the rights and won’t relinquish them easily, plus any way forward now also has to deal with the damage to the marque (in many peoples eyes) caused by newco..
Sadly I now hope this dies soon, this is a long never ending agony that TVR and its many enthusiasts and followers don’t deserve...
Sadly I now hope this dies soon, this is a long never ending agony that TVR and its many enthusiasts and followers don’t deserve...
baconsarney said:
ASM do not use a donor car. And as for ‘business models’, the model isn’t worth a damn if the best you can do is build one car. Lucy and Bullit, apply some imaginative lateral thinking.. said with respect...
Richard.
This is really the point i'd love to get a definitive answer for.Richard.
I say: It is almost impossible to get type approval for a brand new, exact copy of a 15 year old car, mainly because of, but not limited to, passenger and pedestrian safety, ergonomics, emissions, assistance systems etc.
Concerning ASM, they say on webpage:
... The car has passed the VOSA IV A test and is UK registered as an ASM R1 Le Mans, either on an age-related number plate relating to the age of the engine donor vehicle or a brand new number. ...
Doesn't that mean they use an old engine and thereby only have to fulfill the regulations that were in place at the time when the engine was produced/sold ? Same scheme in Germany, only it's the serial number of the frame. You can buy brand-new cars with initial registration in 1970 and the only thing that old is the little strip with registration number that was welded onto an otherwise brand-new car. And bingo: no airbag, no headrest, no safety belt, no cat, no nothing required.
So,
- recreating fibreglass-steelframe-Sagarises would not scale, es expensive, legally fragile and is practically not possible
- even if properly re-engineered, would have placed TVR pretty much in the same position they are now in. They'd have one Sagaris and couldn't produce more.
- in addition Sagarises probably wouldn't be a hot seller today
I believe (but stand to be corrected) that new cars built using donated components and wanting to use a registration related to their age (rather than a 'Q' plate or a brand new number) have to amass a certain score based on what major components are used from that donor vehicle, eg so many points for engine, trans, rear axle, front suspension/steering, brakes etc.
Richard says that ASM don't use a donor vehicle, but that XK lump comes from something... and I'd imagine the trans, rear axle, front hubs etc etc do too... it sounds like a live rear axle set up, so pre XJ6, possibly a MkII or S-type?
Richard says that ASM don't use a donor vehicle, but that XK lump comes from something... and I'd imagine the trans, rear axle, front hubs etc etc do too... it sounds like a live rear axle set up, so pre XJ6, possibly a MkII or S-type?
"neither is re-hashing a design from 20 years or more ago, and trying to sell a car now that couldn't be sold then."
This misinterprets what I said a few posts ago. What I had in mind was building new updated versions of the S, Chimaera and Griffith, not the Sagaris. Those were the 3 best-selling models in the marque's history AFAIK, and are timeless designs which should have no problems selling again. The Sagaris was too extreme for most buyers. But make them with modern emissions-compliant engines, and some basic safety features like airbags and proper roll-over protection, which original TVR never bothered with.
To be clear, no re-used parts : all new construction, but in the style of the best-selling TVRs from the glory days .
BOB
This misinterprets what I said a few posts ago. What I had in mind was building new updated versions of the S, Chimaera and Griffith, not the Sagaris. Those were the 3 best-selling models in the marque's history AFAIK, and are timeless designs which should have no problems selling again. The Sagaris was too extreme for most buyers. But make them with modern emissions-compliant engines, and some basic safety features like airbags and proper roll-over protection, which original TVR never bothered with.
To be clear, no re-used parts : all new construction, but in the style of the best-selling TVRs from the glory days .
BOB
Edited by frontfloater on Friday 7th May 09:11
baconsarney said:
Lucy, I am of the opinion that newco is as you put it a dead duck, apologies if you thought I was inferring otherwise. I do believe however that TVR could still be resurrected, given the right people and a common sense plan, I.e. not aiming ridiculously high when you have no previous pertinent experience. I do now believe, sadly, that aiming to manufacture something very special to take on ‘the big boys’ was a folly of ego and arrogance. Actually I’ll correct my earlier ‘could still be resurrected’ I’m guessing LE owns the rights and won’t relinquish them easily, plus any way forward now also has to deal with the damage to the marque (in many peoples eyes) caused by newco..
Sadly I now hope this dies soon, this is a long never ending agony that TVR and its many enthusiasts and followers don’t deserve...
There was an update some years back that suggested 2 interested parties might become partners, comically known as the 'big update'. Then LE said he didn't want the brand being swallowed up so they were discounted. Sounds like you are right.Sadly I now hope this dies soon, this is a long never ending agony that TVR and its many enthusiasts and followers don’t deserve...
The TVRCC News pages were available to all so it was possible for anyone to see the history of Newco. Other than the latest two, as of today, you get '404 Page not found'. I wonder if TVR have had a word to stop non-members from quoting from the timeline and embarrassing Newco.
5 months on and still not sorted out the new official Parts supplier......but the TVR website is still 'accepting deposits now'.........
LucyP said:
How many people are buying a Sagaris? There are 5 advertised for sale on PH and none of them are £100K. People didn't buy them in sufficient volumes back in 2006, that is why they went bust. What has suddenly changed 15 years on?
You could not make any money selling them at a price that people would be prepared to pay. There would be the factory set up costs, and the production line was very labour intensive. They were £50K new in 2005.
There were 6 You could not make any money selling them at a price that people would be prepared to pay. There would be the factory set up costs, and the production line was very labour intensive. They were £50K new in 2005.
now there are only 3, plenty of people lust after a Sagaris I would suggest. What's changed is modern cars have become too clinical and nanny state and my generation (50's just) are willing buyers of drama.Stever said:
LucyP said:
How many people are buying a Sagaris? There are 5 advertised for sale on PH and none of them are £100K. People didn't buy them in sufficient volumes back in 2006, that is why they went bust. What has suddenly changed 15 years on?
You could not make any money selling them at a price that people would be prepared to pay. There would be the factory set up costs, and the production line was very labour intensive. They were £50K new in 2005.
There were 6 You could not make any money selling them at a price that people would be prepared to pay. There would be the factory set up costs, and the production line was very labour intensive. They were £50K new in 2005.
now there are only 3, plenty of people lust after a Sagaris I would suggest. What's changed is modern cars have become too clinical and nanny state and my generation (50's just) are willing buyers of drama.Pupp said:
May be something, may be nothing, but a ‘dealing’ with the title of the greater part of the old Tech Board site has just this afternoon been lodged with the Land Registry for registration. No more detail of the nature of the dealing seen.
Any idea or educated guess what this might mean? 
Sagaris is an Ancient Greek word for a long-handled battle-axe or war-hammer used by the Iranian peoples (and maybe the Amazons). A quick look on Wiki suggests that the plural noun should be Sagares, as in crisis / crises ; but I stand to be corrected by any Greek scholar here.
If you ever want to be REALLY glad that you didn't study a subject at school, have a quick scroll down the Wiki page titled Ancient Greek nouns ...
BOB
If you ever want to be REALLY glad that you didn't study a subject at school, have a quick scroll down the Wiki page titled Ancient Greek nouns ...
BOB
Edited by frontfloater on Friday 7th May 22:45
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