New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Swiss is ok, aren't you mate? Easy enough to be scathing without doing a bit of background first. Wouldn't be PH otherwise would it?
All mates here (with or without a TVR in the garage) talking about non existent Griffiths.
And I can happily confirm it was only 8 years away from TVR ownership and it's easier to get in and out of than my wife's (25mm) lowered MX5 NC.
LucyP said:
But it isn't achievable and it never was. They had to pay Murray the figures that you suggest, assuming that they are correct. They were not in a position to design a car themselves, so they had no option and I don't think that Murray was expensive. Dyson spent £half a billion on his failed electric car development. Ineos will have spent far more on the Grenadier. £1 billion won't get a new car developed at the volume manufacturers. £5 to £10 million is peanuts even if he car is far from finished.
The wasted sponsorship was pointless yes, but again peanuts in the scheme of things. The factory is irrelevant because they have not spent any money on it.
If you are saying that they could have rented some old small industrial unit, hired a few blokes, knocked up some car from scratch in it, and launched a new TVR that was vaguely competitive, reliable, compliant that anyone would have bought, and done it all for next to nothing, then you are deluded.
There is no way back or forward now. The company is saddled with debt. It has no prospect of ever being funded. There is no product to sell and there never will be.
I am only guessing as to Murray's Design costs but LE did say he was shocked to find development of ABS (Bosch I think?) for the car would cost a £1m. Fiduciam's loans (£6m) and the money they raised with shares (22 individuals) had been used to produce the car. The wasted sponsorship was pointless yes, but again peanuts in the scheme of things. The factory is irrelevant because they have not spent any money on it.
If you are saying that they could have rented some old small industrial unit, hired a few blokes, knocked up some car from scratch in it, and launched a new TVR that was vaguely competitive, reliable, compliant that anyone would have bought, and done it all for next to nothing, then you are deluded.
There is no way back or forward now. The company is saddled with debt. It has no prospect of ever being funded. There is no product to sell and there never will be.
I've never said they should knock up some car in a shed, never. I know that's not possible unless its the 1950s again. The point I was making was they have very grand ambitions but without the necessary financial backing it may become a failure. I still believe TVR will produce the new car - no idea when - but only if they either take on a wealthy partner with 51% control or, as some directors have done previously, sell it on. The problem with the first option would be LE's reluctance to give up control and his dream.
If it does indeed fail sooner or later - sooner would be preferable as the debt will be lower - and TVR default, Fiduciam and the Welsh Government would take ownership.
@ Jon: a very early interview with LE revealed his ambitions re racing.
@ glow worm: stuffed peppers?
Edited by N7GTX on Tuesday 19th October 23:39
But who is going to be this mythical 51% partner? Who are they going to sell 51% to? It's worthless. You are just taking on debt that cannot be repaid. No one is going to invest. That much is very clear. The bond issue proved that.
Fiduciam and the Welsh Government are up the creek without the....
Fiduciam and the Welsh Government are up the creek without the....
glow worm said:
meanwhile on tonights' menu we have stuffed peppers with beef steak mince and brie 
PS I must add Somerset Brie before someone thinks I'm a Europhile
PS I must add Somerset Brie before someone thinks I'm a Europhile
Edited by glow worm on Tuesday 19th October 18:16
GW, check this out! Their Brie is called Baron Bigod
https://fenfarmdairy.co.uk/raw-butter/
The boss was up at 5.30 this morning, making and now baking a steak and ale pie (local steak and somerset ale) for tonight's dinner, and two pork pies (local Nottinghamshire pork) for my lunches, in her new 3 cylinder top hat lined engine.
I am working upstairs at my desk, sorting out other people's finances, and the smell wafting up the stairs is the thing dreams are made of.
I am working upstairs at my desk, sorting out other people's finances, and the smell wafting up the stairs is the thing dreams are made of.
LucyP said:
But who is going to be this mythical 51% partner? Who are they going to sell 51% to? It's worthless. You are just taking on debt that cannot be repaid. No one is going to invest. That much is very clear. The bond issue proved that.
Fiduciam and the Welsh Government are up the creek without the....
According to the company secretary, June 2020, they have raised the funds of £20m and mention of an equity and debt funding arrangement:Fiduciam and the Welsh Government are up the creek without the....
but
According to the chairman, Jan 2021, they have failed to raise the funds of £25m:
Its all as clear as mud in the creek.
QBee said:
The boss was up at 5.30 this morning, making and now baking a steak and ale pie (local steak and somerset ale) for tonight's dinner, and two pork pies (local Nottinghamshire pork) for my lunches, in her new 3 cylinder top hat lined engine.
I am working upstairs at my desk, sorting out other people's finances, and the smell wafting up the stairs is the thing dreams are made of.
I'm sitting at my desk Anthony reviewing contractors safety management system documents, but no nice smells here I am working upstairs at my desk, sorting out other people's finances, and the smell wafting up the stairs is the thing dreams are made of.
Apart from the coffee......
N7GTX said:
According to the company secretary, June 2020, they have raised the funds of £20m and mention of an equity and debt funding arrangement:
I think you're reading it incorrectly. The secretary doesn't say they have raised the funds. The secretary effectively says that was the target, but nowhere does it say it has been reached, because it clearly hasn't. The figures on the accounts show that it hasn't. There is a solvency warning from the auditors. If the money had been raised, then none of that would exist, and they would be shouting it from the roof-tops and would presumably be pressing ahead with the project, instead of doing absolutely nothing.It's as clear as day that they have no money, no prospect of getting any and that the project is dead.
LucyP said:
It's as clear as day that they have no money, no prospect of getting any and that the project is dead.
But they state in the documents posted above, that they are not just determined, but absolutely determined to return TVR to the position of a highly desireable, profitable UK sports marque.
Absolutely is such an over used and meaningless word.
Unfortunately, all the other words in that document, have also turned out to be meaningless.
LucyP said:
N7GTX said:
According to the company secretary, June 2020, they have raised the funds of £20m and mention of an equity and debt funding arrangement:
I think you're reading it incorrectly. The secretary doesn't say they have raised the funds. The secretary effectively says that was the target, but nowhere does it say it has been reached, because it clearly hasn't. The figures on the accounts show that it hasn't. There is a solvency warning from the auditors. If the money had been raised, then none of that would exist, and they would be shouting it from the roof-tops and would presumably be pressing ahead with the project, instead of doing absolutely nothing.It's as clear as day that they have no money, no prospect of getting any and that the project is dead.
'Since June 2020 a Securitized bond issued by Audacia Capital on the Dublin stock exchange to raise finance for the funding of the company has successfully secured new funding despite the recent and ongoing economic challenges.'
The secretary says they have. The chairman (6 months later) says they haven't.
N7GTX said:
The first sentence in the second paragraph is unambiguous.
'Since June 2020 a Securitized bond issued by Audacia Capital on the Dublin stock exchange to raise finance for the funding of the company has successfully secured new funding despite the recent and ongoing economic challenges.'
The secretary says they have. The chairman (6 months later) says they haven't.
I am sure they have raised finance for the funding. The point is, they don't say how much. So 1000 pounds raised would make both statements true.'Since June 2020 a Securitized bond issued by Audacia Capital on the Dublin stock exchange to raise finance for the funding of the company has successfully secured new funding despite the recent and ongoing economic challenges.'
The secretary says they have. The chairman (6 months later) says they haven't.
bullittmcqueen said:
I am sure they have raised finance for the funding. The point is, they don't say how much. So 1000 pounds raised would make both statements true.
Exactly.They have raised a bit, but nowhere near enough, probably not even 2% of the target. That is probably why they are saying nothing now.
Edited by LucyP on Wednesday 20th October 12:58
Edited by LucyP on Wednesday 20th October 13:00
LucyP said:
bullittmcqueen said:
I am sure they have raised finance for the funding. The point is, they don't say how much. So 1000 pounds raised would make both statements true.
Exactly.They have raised a bit, but nowhere near enough, probably not even 2% of the target. That is probably why they are saying nothing now.
This is the beauty of the topic. We discuss matters which in reality are hardly worth talking about, consequently little needs to be remembered.
A few pages back, the exact amount of money raised was indeed mentioned, but I don't remember the amount. Anyway, it was a tiny percentage of the amount wanted.
My point at that time, was why accept the money subscribed at all, because it was clearly insufficient to move the project forward. Those investors believed they were investing in a start-up car manufacturing business, so possibly money was accepted from them under false circumstances.
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 20th October 13:27
I think £350K was mentioned, a few pages back, which when you want £20 million isn't much. It wasn't even clear if that number had been sold to third parties, or just bought by the bond promoter to get the ball rolling.
If it was third parties, then they "pays their money and takes their choice". It's not some old person being pressurised in their home to sign up for something overpriced, that they don't want and don't need. It's a high risk investment offering a tempting yield because of that, aimed at professional investors who know the score, and how to do due diligence, which is why it hasn't been a success.
If it was third parties, then they "pays their money and takes their choice". It's not some old person being pressurised in their home to sign up for something overpriced, that they don't want and don't need. It's a high risk investment offering a tempting yield because of that, aimed at professional investors who know the score, and how to do due diligence, which is why it hasn't been a success.
You are my kind of girl LucyP - one who is kind and thoughtful, and recognises that a geezer of advanced years could do himself a serious injury trying it on with a female TVR enthusiast in the back seat of anything smaller than an S class Mercedes, not to speak of the rear parcel shelf of a TVR Chimaera, where there is about enough room for two amorous Cocker Spaniels, and not a lot more.
Edited by QBee on Wednesday 20th October 14:41
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