Al Melling Plans to keep TVR British
Discussion
happyfluffer said:
Having worked in engine development with the above people for 11 years I feel 'qualified' to comment.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
It would make a change to hear something from someone who actually knows what they are talking about - drive on.
Ribol said:
happyfluffer said:
Having worked in engine development with the above people for 11 years I feel 'qualified' to comment.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
It would make a change to hear something from someone who actually knows what they are talking about - drive on.
IS it rumours that you carn,t fit the cam because the loabs are to big ?
rs mexico said:
Ribol said:
happyfluffer said:
Having worked in engine development with the above people for 11 years I feel 'qualified' to comment.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
It would make a change to hear something from someone who actually knows what they are talking about - drive on.
IS it rumours that you carn,t fit the cam because the loabs are to big ?
You may have taken what I posted the wrong way
happyfluffer said:
Having worked in engine development with the above people for 11 years I feel 'qualified' to comment.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Er dont have a go at me about it, Im one of those who does know! Ive spent the best part of the last yr defending JR & Hindel! Well, JR really, as nobody knows who Simon is.
My point was however, that ever since Al's lecture, the vast majority of ppl on here are only really interested in his side of the story, they arent interested in learning that there might be another side of the story. Given that neither JR or SH shows any signs of being bothered about setting the record straight, Ive always maintained it was never my place to speak out.
If you want to then fine, just be aware of the Melling Is God movement on here and at that point things invariably degenerate into a slanging match.
Max Attacker said:
My point is quite valid: If you are looking ahead then the past often gives some indications.
As far as I am aware the only engines in the public domain that have been designed by AM/MCD etc are the TVR ones. You would not want to base a business plan solely on that history given the known costs and warranty issues.
I am quite prepared to believe in the aftermarket solution he has been involved with to fix the S6 engine ONLY when it is shown to be fundamentally more long lived than the TVR version. I would also need to be convinced that it is profitable.
The TVR version to me seemed to have an incredibly variable life span. If you look around then my absolute best bet is that the longest lived ones hav ebeen treated a little like race engines: warmed up very carefully, consideratly extended in their performance and serviced very frequently. their owners are probably pretty respectful of how they treat their cars. The race engines originally were the same, the basic troubles were only really shown up in customer hands. Foe example I know that "tailslide" on here (congratulations on your speed championship achievements)has had a good run from his T350 and that it will have been used in anger quite often.
But if you want a refernece for a business plan with Melling then who do you go to? The idea of which is not below the belt and as I said before there are a few public domain details and I am pretty sure of what those would/have said before.
Best of luck with his own car but as a consortium partner/patriarch to lead a TVR buyout then that is best left to someone else who HAS to be able to see that there is no profitability in concentrating SOLELY on the UK market.
the rights to Sagaris, Tuscan etc are NO use across the EEC or US as the cars are not currently legal there and to make them so would be nigh on impossible, and that is without even considering the S6 engine. Do not forget the impending change to the UK Low Volume Type Approval system under which all TVR models are currently sold. Soon this will not be 500 types per year but 75.
If 500 is not profitable then how will 75 be?
Looking at the Hellcat then that does not appear to have had any great legislative consideration for mainland EEC.
As others have pointed out TVR old style is unlikley to succeed in the future.
As I have said before TVR failed to grow up to suit modern times, modern buyers and modern legislation. That is why a TVR looks like a TVR and a Corvette looks like a Corvette: different legislative regimes to be designed under.
If I were to suggest one thing it would be to consider a completely different approach from old and that of course would need new people. A new vehicle designed to suit EC rules but with some of the arrogance of the old TVR, but not the warranty costs. That requires some serious/insane capital spend. If you look at the KTM toy then I think they said 16 million for tooling etc to make 4000 cars.
If you look at Caterham, Spyker, Morgan etc then where they differ is in their world approval style approach. The cars are still daring, they are not bland but they are able to NOT be reliant on UK fashion and company car tax rules. TVR chose, going back to PRW times, to restreict themselves to UK rules and customers and therefore be shrunk accordingly.
All those others also used engines from mass ranges but tweaked for bespokeness and for EC approvals. It is alsmost financially impossible to do otherwise. Sure it can be done burt at what cost.
In all business costs are everyting, and I am sure that anyone looking to buy TVR will need to understaqnd that. People with race/prototype backgrounds inevitably do not fully underestand the costs associated with proper production engineering of reliability and consistent quality.
As DJC says all the time on here: the design is quite possibly the easy bit, its is making the bloody things, at a profit that is the hard bit. For that you need develpoment and you need to aim at the rules to avoid last minute changes.
So I don't think it below the belt at all to suggest that a race background, or a prototytpe design background is not the best reference.
As far as I am aware the only engines in the public domain that have been designed by AM/MCD etc are the TVR ones. You would not want to base a business plan solely on that history given the known costs and warranty issues.
I am quite prepared to believe in the aftermarket solution he has been involved with to fix the S6 engine ONLY when it is shown to be fundamentally more long lived than the TVR version. I would also need to be convinced that it is profitable.
The TVR version to me seemed to have an incredibly variable life span. If you look around then my absolute best bet is that the longest lived ones hav ebeen treated a little like race engines: warmed up very carefully, consideratly extended in their performance and serviced very frequently. their owners are probably pretty respectful of how they treat their cars. The race engines originally were the same, the basic troubles were only really shown up in customer hands. Foe example I know that "tailslide" on here (congratulations on your speed championship achievements)has had a good run from his T350 and that it will have been used in anger quite often.
But if you want a refernece for a business plan with Melling then who do you go to? The idea of which is not below the belt and as I said before there are a few public domain details and I am pretty sure of what those would/have said before.
Best of luck with his own car but as a consortium partner/patriarch to lead a TVR buyout then that is best left to someone else who HAS to be able to see that there is no profitability in concentrating SOLELY on the UK market.
the rights to Sagaris, Tuscan etc are NO use across the EEC or US as the cars are not currently legal there and to make them so would be nigh on impossible, and that is without even considering the S6 engine. Do not forget the impending change to the UK Low Volume Type Approval system under which all TVR models are currently sold. Soon this will not be 500 types per year but 75.
If 500 is not profitable then how will 75 be?
Looking at the Hellcat then that does not appear to have had any great legislative consideration for mainland EEC.
As others have pointed out TVR old style is unlikley to succeed in the future.
As I have said before TVR failed to grow up to suit modern times, modern buyers and modern legislation. That is why a TVR looks like a TVR and a Corvette looks like a Corvette: different legislative regimes to be designed under.
If I were to suggest one thing it would be to consider a completely different approach from old and that of course would need new people. A new vehicle designed to suit EC rules but with some of the arrogance of the old TVR, but not the warranty costs. That requires some serious/insane capital spend. If you look at the KTM toy then I think they said 16 million for tooling etc to make 4000 cars.
If you look at Caterham, Spyker, Morgan etc then where they differ is in their world approval style approach. The cars are still daring, they are not bland but they are able to NOT be reliant on UK fashion and company car tax rules. TVR chose, going back to PRW times, to restreict themselves to UK rules and customers and therefore be shrunk accordingly.
All those others also used engines from mass ranges but tweaked for bespokeness and for EC approvals. It is alsmost financially impossible to do otherwise. Sure it can be done burt at what cost.
In all business costs are everyting, and I am sure that anyone looking to buy TVR will need to understaqnd that. People with race/prototype backgrounds inevitably do not fully underestand the costs associated with proper production engineering of reliability and consistent quality.
As DJC says all the time on here: the design is quite possibly the easy bit, its is making the bloody things, at a profit that is the hard bit. For that you need develpoment and you need to aim at the rules to avoid last minute changes.
So I don't think it below the belt at all to suggest that a race background, or a prototytpe design background is not the best reference.
Dunno about ALL of that, - agree with most of it though...
...When PRW took TVR over, about 8 out of every 10 cars it made went to the US of A. It wasn't well known by Joe Public over here - indeed, Tasmins were frequently mistaken for TR7s due to the wedge shape and stripey bonnet decal. In fact, I was once engaged in conversation by an admirer of the 390 I was driving at the time who told me how he wished the British could build cars like that! (I was about 1/4 of a mile from the factory at the time)!
Peter took it out of the American market (coincidentally, I think) just weeks before the big stock market crash over there and if he hadn't, it would have bankrupted the firm because the cars would have doubled in price overnight. Going outside Europe could be attractive but also quite dangerous, I guess. He concentrated on building up the brand in the UK and, it has to be said, made a fine job of it and could sell more cars than he could make in the UK market alone. Unfortunately, after that, it all went a bit pear-shaped - not least, in my view, as a result of trying to do its own engine. Here we concur completely. Using someone else's engine would have been a better idea.
Anyway, it's not ALL bad news about the legislation because although the UK Low Volume Type Approval scheme IS going to get completely stuffed in the next few years, the same bit of "Eurocracy" will also introduce the "EC Small Series Type Approval" scheme with a limit of 1000 a year across the whole of the EC. It has dispensations in it for (at least some of) those hard-to-pass tests that TVR won't be fond of and (we're told) a reduced administrative burden (although, I think that means "reduced" compared to what major manufacturers have to do, so it might not be THAT easy)!
I'd have thought TVR could make a living from 1000 cars a year (of one "family of types" - so they could build more than 1000 a year cars in total so long as they weren't too similar) with the whole of Europe to sell them in????
www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/224103/
?????
Rochdale Al said:
"It would take between six and 12 months to get the place back in full production, but I'd never expect to make more than 10-15 cars a week, two-thirds of which would be sold in the US. We'd major on the Sagaris and we'd revive the Griffith, which would be powered in updated form by an AJP8 engine. That car should never have been dropped."
?????
unrepentant said:
www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/224103/
?????
Rochdale Al said:
"It would take between six and 12 months to get the place back in full production, but I'd never expect to make more than 10-15 cars a week, two-thirds of which would be sold in the US. We'd major on the Sagaris and we'd revive the Griffith, which would be powered in updated form by an AJP8 engine. That car should never have been dropped."
?????
I wonder if Al's crated v8 has type approval for the US? and even if it does, with the current exchange rate 2/3rds of his production is going to be very hard to shift. Would a circa. $120,000 Tuscan sell over there?
Personally I very much hope Melling takes over TVR and keeps the marque british based and even better in Blackpool where it belongs. There are always opposing voices on PH with quite a few questioning the merits of a Melling takeover.
I've only owned 2 TVR roadcars, both 4.5 Cerberas, I bought them because of the way they looked and that absolutely fantastic AJP8 engine. If Al can keep TVR's looking like TVRs should, i.e. not anything like those hideous CAD drawings of a new Cerbera I've seen recently and maybe engineer a 32V version of the AJP8 engine, it would sound like TVR heaven to me.
As I understand it Melling intends to keep TVR in Blackpool and keep building the Sagaris, Tuscan and T350 models plus the new Wildcat. Most TVR owners shout for a V8 and if this goes ahead it sounds like that's exactly what we'll get and maybe even a choice of V8s. I assume the SP6 engine will continue for a while otherwise the current model lineup would need to be re-engineered very quickly.
There are obviously many issues to be resolved regarding the long term future of the company, particularly type approval and emissions which will require major investment. I guess this will have to be done for new design cars but the important thing for me right now is that TVR could be back, in the UK and hopefully with a V8. To succeed it will need support from it's main market here in Britain at least in the short term.
Ceejay
I've only owned 2 TVR roadcars, both 4.5 Cerberas, I bought them because of the way they looked and that absolutely fantastic AJP8 engine. If Al can keep TVR's looking like TVRs should, i.e. not anything like those hideous CAD drawings of a new Cerbera I've seen recently and maybe engineer a 32V version of the AJP8 engine, it would sound like TVR heaven to me.
As I understand it Melling intends to keep TVR in Blackpool and keep building the Sagaris, Tuscan and T350 models plus the new Wildcat. Most TVR owners shout for a V8 and if this goes ahead it sounds like that's exactly what we'll get and maybe even a choice of V8s. I assume the SP6 engine will continue for a while otherwise the current model lineup would need to be re-engineered very quickly.
There are obviously many issues to be resolved regarding the long term future of the company, particularly type approval and emissions which will require major investment. I guess this will have to be done for new design cars but the important thing for me right now is that TVR could be back, in the UK and hopefully with a V8. To succeed it will need support from it's main market here in Britain at least in the short term.
Ceejay
ceejay said:
I assume the SP6 engine will continue for a while otherwise the current model lineup would need to be re-engineered very quickly.
Why wouldn't it - if what he says is true it was TVR that messed up the S6 not him.
Ok, if there is any truth in the rumours that his version lasted less than a pub lunch at least now TVR have bench(?) tested it for him he could make it into a jewel second time round.
Personally I would like to see PW make a come back, although that is probably as unlikely as a Russian muppet making a success of a British car manufacturer.
DJC said:
happyfluffer said:
Having worked in engine development with the above people for 11 years I feel 'qualified' to comment.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Er dont have a go at me about it, Im one of those who does know! Ive spent the best part of the last yr defending JR & Hindel! Well, JR really, as nobody knows who Simon is.
My point was however, that ever since Al's lecture, the vast majority of ppl on here are only really interested in his side of the story, they arent interested in learning that there might be another side of the story. Given that neither JR or SH shows any signs of being bothered about setting the record straight, Ive always maintained it was never my place to speak out.
If you want to then fine, just be aware of the Melling Is God movement on here and at that point things invariably degenerate into a slanging match.
Absolute nonsense DJC. The vast majority of the people here would love to know both sides of the story.
Who cares if the cars have bought-in V8's, at least the company then does not have to worry about emissions, and can then just focus on type approval.
When the Cerbera was done, it was a NEW BODY, NEW CHASSIS, NEW SUSPENSION, NEW INTERIOR, NEW WIRING LOOM CONCEPT, NEW ENGINE, etc, etc.
This is unheard of in Mass produced car manufacturing, they usuually carry over the whole platform, and maybe introduce a new engine somewhere down the line, along with facelifts prior to the new model.
The AJP engine conceps were an attemp to make TVR's a grown up company with it's own engines. This would have worked in the past, but the Green movement has caught up with us. Leave it to those that have millions to throw at keeping the 'save the planet' lot happy.
As long as the car performs, is safe. and has the wow factor that we all appreciate, it should succeed.
When the Cerbera was done, it was a NEW BODY, NEW CHASSIS, NEW SUSPENSION, NEW INTERIOR, NEW WIRING LOOM CONCEPT, NEW ENGINE, etc, etc.
This is unheard of in Mass produced car manufacturing, they usuually carry over the whole platform, and maybe introduce a new engine somewhere down the line, along with facelifts prior to the new model.
The AJP engine conceps were an attemp to make TVR's a grown up company with it's own engines. This would have worked in the past, but the Green movement has caught up with us. Leave it to those that have millions to throw at keeping the 'save the planet' lot happy.
As long as the car performs, is safe. and has the wow factor that we all appreciate, it should succeed.
the thing is, the AJP engine was fantastic
Raw, powerfull, torquey, loud and very quick
It had its problems to begin with, but its an engine that was admired by so many and although a bold move to produce their own bespoke lump, it worked!
Yeah the early 4.2s might have had a problem with snapping the cranks, but it could be resolved and as for maintainence costs
You're getting a car with performance on par/above most established supercars, so in my opinion its all relative!
If the situation was accomadating enough for me to own a Cerbera, believe me I would
Raw, powerfull, torquey, loud and very quick
It had its problems to begin with, but its an engine that was admired by so many and although a bold move to produce their own bespoke lump, it worked!
Yeah the early 4.2s might have had a problem with snapping the cranks, but it could be resolved and as for maintainence costs
You're getting a car with performance on par/above most established supercars, so in my opinion its all relative!
If the situation was accomadating enough for me to own a Cerbera, believe me I would
JR said:
DJC said:
happyfluffer said:
Having worked in engine development with the above people for 11 years I feel 'qualified' to comment.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Er dont have a go at me about it, Im one of those who does know! Ive spent the best part of the last yr defending JR & Hindel! Well, JR really, as nobody knows who Simon is.
My point was however, that ever since Al's lecture, the vast majority of ppl on here are only really interested in his side of the story, they arent interested in learning that there might be another side of the story. Given that neither JR or SH shows any signs of being bothered about setting the record straight, Ive always maintained it was never my place to speak out.
If you want to then fine, just be aware of the Melling Is God movement on here and at that point things invariably degenerate into a slanging match.
Absolute nonsense DJC. The vast majority of the people here would love to know both sides of the story.
Agree 100%. I'm definitely interested in what the others have to say. I approach these things on the basis that everyone will act in their own self interests. Al most likely had his reasons for doing the Middle Wallop talk, but regardless it was well worth attending from my perspective. If anyone else involved in the factory engine engineering was speaking, I'd go to see them too.
Steve.
JR said:
DJC said:
happyfluffer said:
Having worked in engine development with the above people for 11 years I feel 'qualified' to comment.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Rest assured though i will say no more, if you dont want to hear about anything on this site other than rumours and supposition, cool.
Er dont have a go at me about it, Im one of those who does know! Ive spent the best part of the last yr defending JR & Hindel! Well, JR really, as nobody knows who Simon is.
My point was however, that ever since Al's lecture, the vast majority of ppl on here are only really interested in his side of the story, they arent interested in learning that there might be another side of the story. Given that neither JR or SH shows any signs of being bothered about setting the record straight, Ive always maintained it was never my place to speak out.
If you want to then fine, just be aware of the Melling Is God movement on here and at that point things invariably degenerate into a slanging match.
Absolute nonsense DJC. The vast majority of the people here would love to know both sides of the story.
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