Al Melling Plans to keep TVR British
Discussion
Support Britain said:
When will it end.....
TVR is, 'was' one of the reason's that modern Great Britain is called Great Britain!
SW
Founder of www.supportbritain.com and vry proud of it!
TVR is, 'was' one of the reason's that modern Great Britain is called Great Britain!
SW
Founder of www.supportbritain.com and vry proud of it!
Are you at all related to Al Murray?
Beautiful british name TVR, means "travels very rapidly"... talk is cheap - i'm sure melling is a tallented engineer, but i dont think melling and his crew who all seem to be financial backers are able to make a success of turning tvr round.
Whoever is successful in my opinion needs to take it back to basics - buy an engine in - set up a dealer net work and start to rebuild the companies reputation.
With the Sale board up at Aston Martin and plenty of interest - it strikes me as a perfect opportunity for one of the under bidders to hoover the remains up TVR up for peanuts add some value and sell it on.....In the early 1990's even TVR were streets ahead in terms of production facilities and and probably sales revenue. With Fords investment and corporate cuddle will have netted a tidy profit. I'm not convinced that ford have invested a massive amount in AM in the scale of things (£1bn Sale price) - the Vanquish & DB9 both have the V12 engine which dates back to the DB7 vantage and is essentailly 2 V6 Mondeo blocks stuck together, The V8 Vantage is powered by a reworked Jaguar V8 unit, all the gearbox's are bought in from Grazino (I think that how you spell it)but in the process created a massive brand.
The same can happen with TVR with the right people on board
Whoever is successful in my opinion needs to take it back to basics - buy an engine in - set up a dealer net work and start to rebuild the companies reputation.
With the Sale board up at Aston Martin and plenty of interest - it strikes me as a perfect opportunity for one of the under bidders to hoover the remains up TVR up for peanuts add some value and sell it on.....In the early 1990's even TVR were streets ahead in terms of production facilities and and probably sales revenue. With Fords investment and corporate cuddle will have netted a tidy profit. I'm not convinced that ford have invested a massive amount in AM in the scale of things (£1bn Sale price) - the Vanquish & DB9 both have the V12 engine which dates back to the DB7 vantage and is essentailly 2 V6 Mondeo blocks stuck together, The V8 Vantage is powered by a reworked Jaguar V8 unit, all the gearbox's are bought in from Grazino (I think that how you spell it)but in the process created a massive brand.
The same can happen with TVR with the right people on board
Edited by the ringmeister on Wednesday 7th February 17:22
funkyol said:
hendry said:
I am not sure that IP to any engines, or a production facility to build them, are listed under BA's assets, are they? Doesn't the 6 belong to either NS or Ricardo?
So whomever buys TVR is going to have to either strike a deal with NS/Ricardo or find a new engine anyway.
Seems Melling has what he considers a suitable engine, so one assumes he would expect every new TVR to come with that and that the S6 is history.
So whomever buys TVR is going to have to either strike a deal with NS/Ricardo or find a new engine anyway.
Seems Melling has what he considers a suitable engine, so one assumes he would expect every new TVR to come with that and that the S6 is history.
Good, it's a shit engine anyway. When it works it's great, but it lasts about as long as dot cotton's cigarettes do. Putting the S6 back into production would be commecial suicide. TVR need to build their reputation back up with cars that are reliable. Who's going to buy a £40k TVR with an engine that will only go 10,000 miles between rebuilds?
gazzab said:
Surely Melling has his own Speed Six engine ie the one before TVR changed it ?
AJP6 perhaps?
OMG my Sag has kjust hit 10,500 miles - how long have I got?
Jappo said:
OMG my Sag has kjust hit 10,500 miles - how long have I got?
Again, I was generalising, look in the Tuscan classifieds, the majority of cars for sale have had a rebuild. I'm not being offensive, just stating fact. The S6 in renowned for being super un-reliable and in need of rebuilds on a scarily frequent basis, as well as OTT warm-up, warm down, cotton wool care procedures. Moving the company forward TVR will seriously have to address this issue in any cars they plan to release. Reliability is key in anything moving forward.
ntel said:
supertans said:
Being a relative newbie to TVR ownership, 'scuse my obvious ignorance, but who is Al Melling ?
Basically Dave he is the "A" in AJP
He designed the V8's that went into the Cerbera, & also the Speed Six engine that was fitted into the Tamora, Tuscan, T350, Sagaris and some Cerbera's. However, this is where the 'grey area' starts.
If you were at the seminar he held in the Summer of '05 you would have had a real eye opener. It's a shame no-one took minutes (did anyone?). He designed those engines for TVR, however it seems that perhaps to cut production costs some of the components were replaced with inferior ones, such as the designed solid billet crank being replaced with a cast one. Similarly, the con rods were slightly different in their geometry to the ones that Mr Melling's company designed. Also the finger followers got a similar 'tweak'. The result was that certain engines went bang, & hence so many re-builds that you read about in the 'for sale' columns. There is also a story that at times in the Blackpool plant (or wherever TVR's own engines were assembled), some parts delivered were 'faultly', and some were fine, and again there's mass speculation as to how this happened.
Sadly this has been a major contributor to TVR's sales slump & current problems. Someone please correct me if i've got this wrong
All true-but it is equally true that the original Melling design had flaws and TVR had to redesign, not to cut cost but to resolve the problems.That this side of the story is not known is because Melling chose to put his view and TVR descided not to.
Whatever your views of the genesis of the Speed Six problems it is now a fabulous unit.
Whatever your views of the genesis of the Speed Six problems it is now a fabulous unit.
Edited by sidewayz on Wednesday 7th February 18:19
Am sure (and hope for the sake of current owners) that it is. A shame though that a lot of speed six owners have had to fork out £!thousands to get the engine 'fit for purpose', whether it was TVR or Al Melling's company that were at fault. This really shouldn't have happened though. It's played right into the hands of Porsche, BMW and Mercedes.
The one comment that someone made about the idea of TVR being taken over by a company like Mercedes being a 'nightmare'. Are you joking!? As long as they left the designers alone to continue to come up with such fantastic looking cars, which make the aforementioned companies efforts look positively tame by comparison), what is the problem?! Lamborghini get bought by Audi, and then get £!millions poured into r&d and build quality improvements. Result - the Mercielago & Gallardo are the best Lamboghini's ever produced. This is what TVR needs surely, a big company to recognise & realise the potential here?
The one comment that someone made about the idea of TVR being taken over by a company like Mercedes being a 'nightmare'. Are you joking!? As long as they left the designers alone to continue to come up with such fantastic looking cars, which make the aforementioned companies efforts look positively tame by comparison), what is the problem?! Lamborghini get bought by Audi, and then get £!millions poured into r&d and build quality improvements. Result - the Mercielago & Gallardo are the best Lamboghini's ever produced. This is what TVR needs surely, a big company to recognise & realise the potential here?
The purchase order for finger followers was illegibly scribbled by the engine building department. Instead of :
600 off finger followers from Cosworth
...they ordered :
600 off finger fudge from Cadbury
Consequently engine reliability was destined to be relatively poor, but that said, well done Cadbury for making fudge fingers that last 10,000 miles in a high performance engine. I understand they are now looking at making coils for VAG engines out of Curly Wurlys.
600 off finger followers from Cosworth
...they ordered :
600 off finger fudge from Cadbury
Consequently engine reliability was destined to be relatively poor, but that said, well done Cadbury for making fudge fingers that last 10,000 miles in a high performance engine. I understand they are now looking at making coils for VAG engines out of Curly Wurlys.
Edited by roop on Wednesday 7th February 18:46
roop said:
The purchase order for finger followers was illegibly scribbled by the engine building department. Instead of :
600 off finger followers from Cosworth
...they ordered :
600 off finger fudge from Cadbury
Consequently engine reliability was destined to be relatively poor, but that said, well done Cadbury for making fudge fingers that last 10,000 miles in a high performance engine. I understand they are now looking at making coils for VAG engines out of Curly Wurlys.
600 off finger followers from Cosworth
...they ordered :
600 off finger fudge from Cadbury
Consequently engine reliability was destined to be relatively poor, but that said, well done Cadbury for making fudge fingers that last 10,000 miles in a high performance engine. I understand they are now looking at making coils for VAG engines out of Curly Wurlys.
Edited by roop on Wednesday 7th February 18:46
funkyol said:
Jappo said:
OMG my Sag has kjust hit 10,500 miles - how long have I got?
Again, I was generalising, look in the Tuscan classifieds, the majority of cars for sale have had a rebuild. I'm not being offensive, just stating fact. The S6 in renowned for being super un-reliable and in need of rebuilds on a scarily frequent basis, as well as OTT warm-up, warm down, cotton wool care procedures. Moving the company forward TVR will seriously have to address this issue in any cars they plan to release. Reliability is key in anything moving forward.
Rubbish. The later/current S6 appears to be fine with many at 30k and one at 50k with no probs. Suggest you check some other threads first before spouting off on the S6 subject as if you know anything about it. funkyol said:
Good, it's a shit engine anyway. When it works it's great, but it lasts about as long as dot cotton's cigarettes do. Putting the S6 back into production would be commecial suicide.
funkyol said:
Jappo said:
OMG my Sag has kjust hit 10,500 miles - how long have I got?
I'm not being offensive, just stating fact. The S6 in renowned for being super un-reliable and in need of rebuilds on a scarily frequent basis,
Oh ok. Not my experience but then I've only owned 2 of them. I bow to your obviously much greater experience.
very true
However
There does seem to be a high proprtion of cars sold on pistonheads (s6 engined) with engine rebuilds almost used a a selling point.
Ie if it wasn't an issue, why mention it. ie LOTS of rebuild have happened for relatively lowmileage cars..
ie if a rebuild was what was requuired every 50-60k miles on a rv8 car, most people would go along with it. Actually wouldn't be to surprised on a ferrari either. it could be budgeted for.
What is odd with the s6 is the shear randomness of it... Some people have thrasehed them to death, and have HAD NO PRoblems. some have molly coddled them and have gone through 2-3 some with comically low miles, (hundreds). some get to 15 k and have a different sort of rebuild...
Later cars do seem to be better... so the logical conclusion was very dodgy parts supplu mixed up with very poor parts management ( ie no tracking of batches of parts into which engine) resulting in bad parts going into rebuilds, etc,etc,etc.
Who knows, i'm sure TVR (whoever that is) haven't a clue either.
It's the uncertainty - not the problem that's killed them.
ie if they had ever been able to say this is why, this is what has been done to address it, and we now have the warranty, it would not have caused so much of a 'Perception' of unreliabilty.
As clearly some owner/cars have had no issues, some have. it's not knowing why that has really damaged things..
AND that could be, a tvr statement saying, some engines have been thrashed, and engineering reports to demonstrate it - IF that was the only reason.
Who knows.
I doubt anyone will ever know now.
B
B
However
There does seem to be a high proprtion of cars sold on pistonheads (s6 engined) with engine rebuilds almost used a a selling point.
Ie if it wasn't an issue, why mention it. ie LOTS of rebuild have happened for relatively lowmileage cars..
ie if a rebuild was what was requuired every 50-60k miles on a rv8 car, most people would go along with it. Actually wouldn't be to surprised on a ferrari either. it could be budgeted for.
What is odd with the s6 is the shear randomness of it... Some people have thrasehed them to death, and have HAD NO PRoblems. some have molly coddled them and have gone through 2-3 some with comically low miles, (hundreds). some get to 15 k and have a different sort of rebuild...
Later cars do seem to be better... so the logical conclusion was very dodgy parts supplu mixed up with very poor parts management ( ie no tracking of batches of parts into which engine) resulting in bad parts going into rebuilds, etc,etc,etc.
Who knows, i'm sure TVR (whoever that is) haven't a clue either.
It's the uncertainty - not the problem that's killed them.
ie if they had ever been able to say this is why, this is what has been done to address it, and we now have the warranty, it would not have caused so much of a 'Perception' of unreliabilty.
As clearly some owner/cars have had no issues, some have. it's not knowing why that has really damaged things..
AND that could be, a tvr statement saying, some engines have been thrashed, and engineering reports to demonstrate it - IF that was the only reason.
Who knows.
I doubt anyone will ever know now.
B
B
HMMM lets see.
High performance high reving engine
Some people use them hard but look after them
Some people don't use them hard but don't understand the engine charcteristics at all and labour the engine
Some people use them very hard ( I avoid the term thrash) and also don't understand the engine charateristics at all
Some people think they should be like a low rev high torque V8,labour the engine and never use the right gears to be in the right rev range for the right speed
Some other people have absolutely no sympathy for the engine and think it should be as reliable as a mass produced multi million pound development engine irrespective of the reality of TVR's budget and development budget
Some people think its reasonable to buy a cheap second hand very high performance car and get expect the reliability and running costs of a German saloon
Some people hate a Six's characteristics and want a V8 and want to use every opportunity to shout about it
Many of these people need to get real
High performance high reving engine
Some people use them hard but look after them
Some people don't use them hard but don't understand the engine charcteristics at all and labour the engine
Some people use them very hard ( I avoid the term thrash) and also don't understand the engine charateristics at all
Some people think they should be like a low rev high torque V8,labour the engine and never use the right gears to be in the right rev range for the right speed
Some other people have absolutely no sympathy for the engine and think it should be as reliable as a mass produced multi million pound development engine irrespective of the reality of TVR's budget and development budget
Some people think its reasonable to buy a cheap second hand very high performance car and get expect the reliability and running costs of a German saloon
Some people hate a Six's characteristics and want a V8 and want to use every opportunity to shout about it
Many of these people need to get real
Edited by sidewayz on Wednesday 7th February 22:56
My only experience of the six was when DC brought the first Tamora down to Cheltenham and let me have a blast. Chucked me the keys and told Claire and I to have fun. We went out giggling like schoolkids and just before we got in it he said. It's the only one in existence and it's going out on it's first press call tomorrow so don't crash it...!
Once I got the bugger in reverse to get it out the drive off we went driving like my mother in the pissing rain with dodgy ventilation and a steamed up screen trying not to bin the car...!
Was great fun though and what a noise
PS : Car was running TVR100 and was red subsequently painted yellow.
Once I got the bugger in reverse to get it out the drive off we went driving like my mother in the pissing rain with dodgy ventilation and a steamed up screen trying not to bin the car...!
Was great fun though and what a noise
PS : Car was running TVR100 and was red subsequently painted yellow.
bjwoods said:
very true
However
There does seem to be a high proprtion of cars sold on pistonheads (s6 engined) with engine rebuilds almost used a a selling point.
Ie if it wasn't an issue, why mention it. ie LOTS of rebuild have happened for relatively lowmileage cars..
ie if a rebuild was what was requuired every 50-60k miles on a rv8 car, most people would go along with it. Actually wouldn't be to surprised on a ferrari either. it could be budgeted for.
What is odd with the s6 is the shear randomness of it... Some people have thrasehed them to death, and have HAD NO PRoblems. some have molly coddled them and have gone through 2-3 some with comically low miles, (hundreds). some get to 15 k and have a different sort of rebuild...
Later cars do seem to be better... so the logical conclusion was very dodgy parts supplu mixed up with very poor parts management ( ie no tracking of batches of parts into which engine) resulting in bad parts going into rebuilds, etc,etc,etc.
Who knows, i'm sure TVR (whoever that is) haven't a clue either.
It's the uncertainty - not the problem that's killed them.
ie if they had ever been able to say this is why, this is what has been done to address it, and we now have the warranty, it would not have caused so much of a 'Perception' of unreliabilty.
As clearly some owner/cars have had no issues, some have. it's not knowing why that has really damaged things..
AND that could be, a tvr statement saying, some engines have been thrashed, and engineering reports to demonstrate it - IF that was the only reason.
Who knows.
I doubt anyone will ever know now.
B
B
However
There does seem to be a high proprtion of cars sold on pistonheads (s6 engined) with engine rebuilds almost used a a selling point.
Ie if it wasn't an issue, why mention it. ie LOTS of rebuild have happened for relatively lowmileage cars..
ie if a rebuild was what was requuired every 50-60k miles on a rv8 car, most people would go along with it. Actually wouldn't be to surprised on a ferrari either. it could be budgeted for.
What is odd with the s6 is the shear randomness of it... Some people have thrasehed them to death, and have HAD NO PRoblems. some have molly coddled them and have gone through 2-3 some with comically low miles, (hundreds). some get to 15 k and have a different sort of rebuild...
Later cars do seem to be better... so the logical conclusion was very dodgy parts supplu mixed up with very poor parts management ( ie no tracking of batches of parts into which engine) resulting in bad parts going into rebuilds, etc,etc,etc.
Who knows, i'm sure TVR (whoever that is) haven't a clue either.
It's the uncertainty - not the problem that's killed them.
ie if they had ever been able to say this is why, this is what has been done to address it, and we now have the warranty, it would not have caused so much of a 'Perception' of unreliabilty.
As clearly some owner/cars have had no issues, some have. it's not knowing why that has really damaged things..
AND that could be, a tvr statement saying, some engines have been thrashed, and engineering reports to demonstrate it - IF that was the only reason.
Who knows.
I doubt anyone will ever know now.
B
B
Does anyone know if there was a point in time when the rebuilds became less frequent? I know there were problems with the S6 when it came out in the Cerb and early Tuscans but does anyone know how many Sags have had rebuilt engines since 2005?
mid 2004 engine builds, most of the "soft" parts had been engineered out by then. Rule of thumb is the later the engine the better. Also if the warm up procedure isn't done correctly it can reduce the life of the engine.
I would only buy a 2002 car etc if it had an engine rebuild after 2004!!! that's just me! I would still get the warranty though :-)
I would only buy a 2002 car etc if it had an engine rebuild after 2004!!! that's just me! I would still get the warranty though :-)
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